ATTN: Dev's - PvP 2.0 Proposed Changes and Fixes
By
Alpha_Zulu,
Posted on: 2010-03-01 24:11 in Everything about PvP
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just saw this. literally lol.
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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
as effective as a submarine with screen doors.
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So, In other news, the Great Barrier Reef caught on fire, and the day is now 1.3 micro-seconds shorter, becuase of some earthquake I am too lazy to remember.
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Originally Posted by Supermax
just saw this. literally lol.
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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
Support your arguement with numbers, now, define the numbers with their use in game.
Any stalker fighting a person of comparable skill that has a build of comparable wealth, WILL NOT get a two shot off. Ever. Even Post-I13, running a stalker with 55% global damage and oft-running reds, two shotting was near impossible becuase the target would move/heal/phase/resist/not-have-downs |
I agree it's pretty much impossible, as it should be. So why should it be possible? What would that add to the game? Please, support you argument with in game numbers.
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| But, lets compare, in order to two shot, we are looking at a minimum 6 seconds. In 6 seconds, a blaster can do the same. From a distance. And can repeat it again with less delay then a stalker. |
So somebody fighting a Blaster isn't capable of the same move/heal/phase/resist/not-have-downs that so vexes you as a Stalker? It's been a long time since I died to a Blaster in 6 seconds or less and that was only because he had 4 damage procs fire in his first 5 attacks. That's not gonna happen often.
I luv nit picking posts out of context then attacking them.
However, my screen-door comment still holds true. Unfortunetly for you, I do not hold the cure to your mental disorders.
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Might have something to do with the fact that there are stalkers in RV that skipped AS becuase they said sharks are better. |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
I agree it's pretty much impossible, as it should be. So why should it be possible? What would that add to the game? Please, support you argument with in game numbers.
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Also might have something to do with the fact that a stalker CANNOT kill anything of equal skill/value solo?
In-Game Numbers: BU + AS + Dark Blast vs a psy/em/cold. 952.
OMG GUYS I DID MORE THEN 900 DAMAGE IN 8 SECONDS, I AM OP. . . . I would have used ET, but the guy knows how to move in a game. I KNOW, MORE TRAVEL SUPPRESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
So somebody fighting a Blaster isn't capable of the same move/heal/phase/resist/not-have-downs that so vexes you as a Stalker? It's been a long time since I died to a Blaster in 6 seconds or less and that was only because he had 4 damage procs fire in his first 5 attacks. That's not gonna happen often.
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Nope, but I gurantee a blaster solo is going to kill you alot faster then a solo stalker.
But, lets see how close I can get on a psy blaster.
BU+Aim+Psy Lance+Will Dom+TK Blast
looking at around 1k damage discounting procs, if the person is running a defense shield.
From Range.
Psy Damage.
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Ok, while this is a very cute response, it doesn't in any way answer the question.|
Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
Might have something to do with the fact that there are stalkers in RV that skipped AS becuase they said sharks are better.
Also might have something to do with the fact that a stalker CANNOT kill anything of equal skill/value solo? In-Game Numbers: BU + AS + Dark Blast vs a psy/em/cold. 952. OMG GUYS I DID MORE THEN 900 DAMAGE IN 8 SECONDS, I AM OP. . . . I would have used ET, but the guy knows how to move in a game. I KNOW, MORE TRAVEL SUPPRESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Why should it be possible for any AT to 2 shot a squishy, even a bad one? What does it add to PvP to make it better as a whole?
I agree there is a problem. Allowing a Stalker to 2 shot a target is not going to fix the problem.
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Yes it does, stalkers, even including sharks, are at an IMMEDIATE disadvantage to any pvp AT. It is quite that simple. |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Ok, while this is a very cute response, it doesn't in any way answer the question.
Why should it be possible for any AT to 2 shot a squishy, even a bad one? What does it add to PvP to make it better as a whole? I agree there is a problem. Allowing a Stalker to 2 shot a target is not going to fix the problem. |
2 Shotting wont hurt the system as it stands. 2 Shotting a bad squishy with a good stalker should happen, and the squishy will die in the same amount of time if the other person is on a dom; as surely will they die if the good player is on a corr.
Look at it this way, in pvp, stalkers are only really useful in 2's and 3's, but a team of a dom and pain dom, are more of a threat.
Stalkers are 1 trick ponies, the 1 lethal trick they have, is suddenly, not lethal to quite anything of comparable skill or wealth.
Stop arguing a dead point, you are quite wrong, I have numbers, agreement, and quite frankly, you have yet to once even attempt to defend that buffing stalkers WILL NOT be good for the system.
And if this is any sort of conclusion to draw on, as it stands, the only AT that stands to lose/gain, is a stalker. To be honest, stalkers need it, simply becuase you can't see it through the fractured mirror of your own reality, does mean it is not so.
If the devs really think PvP 2.0 benefits the noobs & the majority of the community wants things changed back to pre I 13, then the only sensible thing would be to make 2 zones for end game level PvP.
My proposal would be to change RV back to pre I 13 pvp system, and increase the level of warburg to 50.
If they want TS , HD , DR ,& the whole of nerfed PvP, the mechanics of it have always existed for that in warburg with the side missions that buff & debuff each side. Let the players decide which zone they think is the better system.
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It's not my fractured reality. It's the devs. They are the ones you need to convince if you want a change. I agree that Stalkers need to be buffed. They don't. That means the onus is on you to prove to them that PvP will be improved by allowing Stalkers to 2 shot squishies. If this is just a pie in the sky wish list then great. Wish for whatever you want. But if you want them to actually listen, you have to back it up with something more substantial.
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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
And if this is any sort of conclusion to draw on, as it stands, the only AT that stands to lose/gain, is a stalker. To be honest, stalkers need it, simply becuase you can't see it through the fractured mirror of your own reality, does mean it is not so. |
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So....you're the devs representative? lolwut?!?!?
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
It's not my fractured reality. It's the devs. They are the ones you need to convince if you want a change. I agree that Stalkers need to be buffed. They don't. That means the onus is on you to prove to them that PvP will be improved by allowing Stalkers to 2 shot squishies. If this is just a pie in the sky wish list then great. Wish for whatever you want. But if you want them to actually listen, you have to back it up with something more substantial.
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Originally Posted by JKwervo
So....you're the devs representative? lolwut?!?!?
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Never claimed that. Look, we've had this conversation many times already about this same subject. And every time the devs tell us that we weren't convincing enough. That we didn't give them enough information. That we didn't present our case convincingly enough.
But the noobs apparently did. And now we have the noob vision of PvP, and as far as the devs are concerned we have only ourselves to blame. Yeah, I know, it's BS. But they are the ones we have to convince if you want to have any hope of seeing any of these changes made. Present them with a good case. Don't just make a wish list and expect changes. We tried that before. It didn't work and they told us why it didn't work. Explain to them in detail exactly why every single one of these changes need to happen and why PvP would be better for it. They aren't going to listen to people QQing "oh my stalker sux! i want to 2 shot baddos! fix it noa!"
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
Never claimed that. Look, we've had this conversation many times already about this same subject. And every time the devs tell us that we weren't convincing enough. That we didn't give them enough information. That we didn't present our case convincingly enough.
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You got links and quotes to back that up? I am going to bet you don't because its not true. The only thing we were really told about i13 pvp changes was that we(people who currently pvped regularly) were not the segment the changes were aimed at.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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You're way off base, Anti.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Never claimed that. Look, we've had this conversation many times already about this same subject. And every time the devs tell us that we weren't convincing enough. That we didn't give them enough information. That we didn't present our case convincingly enough.
But the noobs apparently did. And now we have the noob vision of PvP, and as far as the devs are concerned we have only ourselves to blame. Yeah, I know, it's BS. But they are the ones we have to convince if you want to have any hope of seeing any of these changes made. Present them with a good case. Don't just make a wish list and expect changes. We tried that before. It didn't work and they told us why it didn't work. Explain to them in detail exactly why every single one of these changes need to happen and why PvP would be better for it. They aren't going to listen to people QQing "oh my stalker sux! i want to 2 shot baddos! fix it noa!" |
You're concentrating on the two-shot aspect and not even daring to into the numerical issue that is animation times.
At this point, people aren't spiking with double sharks in high end arena; why? the the highest burst achievable in the game is coming from snipe spikes and delayed damage. That should tell you something.
Centering the issue on the number of clicks it takes to kill someone is retardedly naive.
Make an argument doing the opposite; the amount of clicks/time/experience/etc that it takes to evade a kill. At this point, even an AS -> Placate -> Sharks spike coming from a single stalker will give the most inexperienced player a window of about 2.5-3 seconds to pop greens, phase, or hiber. Can you say the same about a Snipe-> Will Dom -> Etc, Delayed damage spike? Or a Mez spike from a Dom?
How about a crit greater fire sword from a non-retarded scrapper (it should crit for something like 800 points if the person that built the toon does not have downs syndrome) followed by a cremate?
These are damage ATs and the stalker should be the highest burst damage AT in the game (coming out of hide only, of course).
This is currently not the case; and a buff to AS is the best way to fix it.
I dont mean to be a dick, as i have some semblance of respect for you, Mr. Bane Advocate; but seriously, you have not partaken in any high end pvp, EVER. Acknowledge you're not experienced enough to contribute to a good discussion and take a seat.
I´m bad but i would like the following.
Corr entangling arrow to be given an immob duration. I dont give a damn at this point if it is 2 seconds base just want that moment where the player have to change to cj.
TS and HD removed from Zones.
Also find ways to make sonic resonance viable again. Perhaps giving psi res to the shields? Dunno
Also stop delaying the new defender pool(pools?).
Either a pool with a FA or a pool with Hib or prefereably both so you have the option.
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Originally Posted by ConFlict
You got links and quotes to back that up? I am going to bet you don't because its not true. The only thing we were really told about i13 pvp changes was that we(people who currently pvped regularly) were not the segment the changes were aimed at.
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The thread in particular I was refering too was from Lighthouse, and no surprise there it got deleted, as apparently most of his threads got deleted. But there is another from Arcanaville that mirrors it, and since she was instrumental in the design of I13 PvP, it's fairly safe to say she was speaking with the devs voice at that time.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...10#post2082510
The important part:
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To make progress with the devs, you need to be able to do two things: you need to be able to make the case that the *goals* you have for PvP are in some way better than the ones they have, and *then* that your suggestions would actually achieve those goals. The former without the latter is speculative, and the latter without the former is foundationless. Both will tend to lose. To do both requires actually trying to learn what they are actually attempting to do, on their terms. To figure out why they are doing what they are doing. Simply assuming they are clueless is the quick ticket to being made irrelevant. |
And Barrier, for the most part you are right. I have never participated in test PvP or the ladder when it was up. That does not mean I am completely unversed in PvP. I ran practices with the Sitting Ducks in the early days. I did KBs with many of them as well. Cowboy John was the only one of them I could never beat. Maybe that was because he was the only one of them worth anything, but that's done. I'm not really trying to break down anybody's ideas here. I'm just trying to make sure that the ideas are presented in a fashion the devs will actually listen too because I still for some reason care about PvP in this game. I'll sit out now and let the big kids talk.
Wasn't the big thing about AS is that it's damage was unresistable and is now resistable? Or am I misinformed?
Also What if a 4 second stun duration was applied after a correct AS was executed? this would allow for placate time and a follow up of another attack (maybe another AS - but doubt anyone is that skilled).
I think if the first is true then changing it back would resolve the problem of LOLstalkerASdamage
Live : @Emo Bitter / @2Emo2Bitter
Test : @Bitter / @2Emo2Bitter
CoHFaces
Myspace
In my opinion, Spirit Shark should have its damage reduced and put more inline with the other patron range attacks.
A buff to AS would be nice. I think that it should do a set percentage of HP in PvP. Perhaps 75% of total hp on successful tohit roll.
I think DR is necessary in the game as it stands now. However I think that Castle should be more transparent with the DR caps/formulas. As it stands right now I think maybe 2-5 players in all of COX understand how exactly DR works. At the very least correct the combat attributes to show accurate numbers.
I think things like stalagmites/TF/stuns in general needs to be looked at as it is an automatic 9-10 second stun that can not be avoided or broken out of. With the damage increase out of domination for Dominators 9-10 seconds is usually a guaranteed kill.
For god's sake add TP protection in the zones around the drones. This will eliminate griefing of people getting TP'd out of the base and people droning.
Also please add either more drones or better protection around both bases. The Mu at the villain base are much much more dangerous than the Wardens around the hero base. I think that in the immediate vicinity of the base there should be mobs that see through invis/hide. There is far too much griefing going on for both sides.
Just my 2 inf,
Kiri
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No.|
Originally Posted by IcyKiri
For god's sake add TP protection in the zones around the drones. This will eliminate griefing of people getting TP'd out of the base and people droning.
Also please add either more drones or better protection around both bases. The Mu at the villain base are much much more dangerous than the Wardens around the hero base. I think that in the immediate vicinity of the base there should be mobs that see through invis/hide. There is far too much griefing going on for both sides. Just my 2 inf, Kiri |
No.
You're just jealous of my wormholing skillz.
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Well you started off pretty good then it just completely fell apart. |
Originally Posted by IcyKiri
In my opinion, Spirit Shark should have its damage reduced and put more inline with the other patron range attacks.
A buff to AS would be nice. I think that it should do a set percentage of HP in PvP. Perhaps 75% of total hp on successful tohit roll. I think DR is necessary in the game as it stands now. However I think that Castle should be more transparent with the DR caps/formulas. As it stands right now I think maybe 2-5 players in all of COX understand how exactly DR works. At the very least correct the combat attributes to show accurate numbers. I think things like stalagmites/TF/stuns in general needs to be looked at as it is an automatic 9-10 second stun that can not be avoided or broken out of. With the damage increase out of domination for Dominators 9-10 seconds is usually a guaranteed kill. For god's sake add TP protection in the zones around the drones. This will eliminate griefing of people getting TP'd out of the base and people droning. Also please add either more drones or better protection around both bases. The Mu at the villain base are much much more dangerous than the Wardens around the hero base. I think that in the immediate vicinity of the base there should be mobs that see through invis/hide. There is far too much griefing going on for both sides. Just my 2 inf, Kiri |
Something with damages needs to occur because (just like everything PvP) it is either really good or really bad.
75% of total HP??? Are you smoking the same stuff as the devs???
No DR is not necessary. Limiting buff stacking is the answer.
Correct numbers would be nice.
Having mez protection solves much of the stupidity.
Showing your true colors I see. There may be a couple of problematic spots in SC but that's about it.
The real problems are DR, TS, HD, Mez resistance only not the MU.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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It's equally naive to talk about a stalker's risk/benefit purely in terms of damage output.|
Originally Posted by black_barrier
Centering the issue on the number of clicks it takes to kill someone is retardedly naive.
Make an argument doing the opposite; the amount of clicks/time/experience/etc that it takes to evade a kill. |
The very area you suggest--evading a kill--is an area where stalkers are arguably the strongest AT in the game and can't simply be overlooked when talking overall pvp balance.
The very reason that stalkers were nerfed to begin with was that it was unreasonable for a single AT to simultaneously enjoy the extremes of being at/near the top in killing potential and at/near the top of evading defeat.
A change that gives them more in offensive potency should also increase the attendant risk.
As far as Blaster Ice Blast is concerned, I'd be happy with an adjustment in recharge times (and a bit of a damage boost to BiB.)
Considering Ice Blast's secondary effect is next to useless in PVP (and in PVE imo) I'd be happy to see Bitter Ice Blast's recharge brought in line with other tier threes to a 10 second recharge rather than the current 12, and have the tier one and tier two dropped to 2 and 4 (like fire's) but I'd settle for 3 and 6.
As it stands now, because of the 4, 8, and 12 second recharges it takes a high amount of recharge to pump out a continuous attack chain (even harder in PVP thanks to DR on recharge.) I see no reason why Ice Blast can't have similar recharge to Fire given that Ice's secondary effect is basically innefective while Fire, Sonic, Rad, etc, retain the usefulness of their secondary effects.
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Once you reached a certain point in the old PvP, stalkers were the EASIEST AT to counter.|
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
It's equally naive to talk about a stalker's risk/benefit purely in terms of damage output.
The very area you suggest--evading a kill--is an area where stalkers are arguably the strongest AT in the game and can't simply be overlooked when talking overall pvp balance. The very reason that stalkers were nerfed to begin with was that it was unreasonable for a single AT to simultaneously enjoy the extremes of being at/near the top in killing potential and at/near the top of evading defeat. A change that gives them more in offensive potency should also increase the attendant risk. |
They are the only AT that could be countered strictly by using the keys W,A,S,D and Space. The reason stalkers metrics were completely skewed was due to their ability to easily kill fiteclub watchers.
I personally think stalkers were probably at their most balanced state in i10.
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Originally Posted by Emo_Bitter
Wasn't the big thing about AS is that it's damage was unresistable and is now resistable? Or am I misinformed?
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You're misinformed.
AS is still partially unresisted, as it always was.
The issue is the DR curve hitting AS way way too hard, stacked on top the fact that AS's interrupt time was definitely not taken into account when doing it's damage calculation (unlike snipes and other such interruptible powers).
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Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
It's equally naive to talk about a stalker's risk/benefit purely in terms of damage output.
The very area you suggest--evading a kill--is an area where stalkers are arguably the strongest AT in the game and can't simply be overlooked when talking overall pvp balance. The very reason that stalkers were nerfed to begin with was that it was unreasonable for a single AT to simultaneously enjoy the extremes of being at/near the top in killing potential and at/near the top of evading defeat. A change that gives them more in offensive potency should also increase the attendant risk. |
Hmmm.....
what if the devs added a conditional based upon damage mitigated by AS on a target effecting the overall out of hide time.
The more damage you do the longer you are out of hide ranging from say 10-16 secs....of course they would need to bring back old AS values....and bring sharks inline with other epic ranged attacks.
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I remember being told that. It made me kry. *sniff*
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Originally Posted by ConFlict
You got links and quotes to back that up? I am going to bet you don't because its not true. The only thing we were really told about i13 pvp changes was that we(people who currently pvped regularly) were not the segment the changes were aimed at.
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Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
The point of the idea is that GOOD players will be able to 2 shot people who suck. People who are good will never be 2 shotted, because they won't be standing still. How can you possibly think that is bad?