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just throw him on ignore Hyperstrike. He's been reported to be one of the major griefers and hell-reppers on the forums. Unfortunately, one can abuse the rep system, or the forum system, without abusing the rules, so I think the GM's hands are tied for this player.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Maybe sometime after you divorce yourself from the smug condescension.
As of right now, you're simply going to rip on whatever I say. So feel free, as I'm thoroughly sick of this subject (again). |
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Mac is actually one of the more helpful PvPers on these forums. His issues are the same as mine: We find it difficult to take a person seriously who doesn't even have the experience necessary. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
just throw him on ignore Hyperstrike. He's been reported to be one of the major griefers and hell-reppers on the forums. Unfortunately, one can abuse the rep system, or the forum system, without abusing the rules, so I think the GM's hands are tied for this player.
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Arm chair analysis of something you do not participate in actively is annoying - especially to people who actually know what they are talking about.
The correct answer to Mac's question is: There isn't a viable tactic that can counter like hyperstrike suggests. There are exploits, but even PvPers don't agree with using exploits in fights.
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Huh. There's been some kind of massive cultural shift recently?
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Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
even PvPers don't agree with using exploits in fights.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Interesting that this same point of view is not thought to be valid about the market. People come in to this section and spout armchair nonsense all the time, but those who actually understand the market are made out to be the bad guys.
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Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Arm chair analysis of something you do not participate in actively is annoying - especially to people who actually know what they are talking about.
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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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? Very confusing here - since I have been actively part of the community, PvPers are the first to report exploits that will be harmful to PvP.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Huh. There's been some kind of massive cultural shift recently?
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Now, if you mean exploits in Powerleveling/possible Duping/etc. Yes, I highly doubt a PvPer would say a peep because it means more PvP.
But, PvPers are sometimes to first to notice bugged powers and file reports. An example would be when Cage powers were reduced to 15 seconds on all ATs except controllers. PvPers banned cage class controllers for the duration of the bug. Also, vengeance as nearly always been banned due to being able to stack it. Back before it was banned, 20 minutes matches with the final score of 210-5 were not unheard of. It basically boiled down to the first team that got a kill would lose.
Any power that gives an unfair advantages to a player that is not working as intended is readily agreed upon as bannable among PvPers. Not banning said powers would result in a shift of requiring people to use certain strategies in order to win and completely eliminates the dynamic of different team lineups.
So yes, PvPers have always been at the forefront of not using exploits in our matches
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If I have come here and seemed like I'm armchair analyzing I do apologies. My goal is to learn what has changed and why changes that seem obvious to me (because I am uneducated in this area of the game) aren't implemented. |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Interesting that this same point of view is not thought to be valid about the market. People come in to this section and spout armchair nonsense all the time, but those who actually understand the market are made out to be the bad guys.
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Hyperstrike has actually answer some of these questions and I now sorta understand why People like me (coming back to the game after almost a year off) are having problems.
I'm not looking to have my suggestions put into the game - I just want to discuss what possible changes could help all areas of this game. Because, to be honest there needs to be some in this area of the game.
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He can rep me all he wants. Rep is turned off. So...
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Originally Posted by je_saist
just throw him on ignore Hyperstrike. He's been reported to be one of the major griefers and hell-reppers on the forums. Unfortunately, one can abuse the rep system, or the forum system, without abusing the rules, so I think the GM's hands are tied for this player.
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It wasn't aimed at you specifically Empire, but a general echoing of I know the feeling (About people spouting off at things they do not understand).
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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This. And I'm not accusing you, EmpireForgotten. It's just something we face in the Market Forum all the time, like you apparently face it in the PvP forum. Think of it as a common problem we share, not as an accusation.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
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A difference, I think, is that what PvPers do for the most part doesn't affect the rest of the community. Granted, what the marketeers do ALSO doesn't greatly affect the rest of the community, but many people THINK it does. Inflation surely isn't caused by a vast increase in available influence chasing the same or smaller number of items, it's caused by flippers and market manipulators! That sort of thing. I suppose it would be like blaming the high price of PvP IOs on the PvPers themselves. It's ridiculous, but not much less ridiculous. And if people were in the PvP forum shouting at all the PvPers for their deplorable behavior and how it affected everyone in the PvE game, I suspect the PvPers would get rightly testy.
Frankly, I'm in favor of a greater split between PvP and PvE if that's what the PvPers want. I don't have a problem with, for instance, giving them an instant level 50 with free access to all IOs, as long as that character can't be used in PvE. I don't think it's likely to happen, and I have no idea if that's what the PvPers want, but I have no objection to it. I don't PvP, but I think the PvPers deserve way better than they've gotten from this game.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Gotcha, no worries.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
It wasn't aimed at you specifically Empire, but a general echoing of I know the feeling (About people spouting off at things they do not understand).
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Anyways, with that interesting tangent: What ways are there to fix this issue?
I had a long post here originally, but it was eaten by the IE8 monster. I'll leave the suggestions to people who know what they are talking about.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Huh. There's been some kind of massive cultural shift recently?
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Maybe sometime after you divorce yourself from the smug condescension.
As of right now, you're simply going to rip on whatever I say. So feel free, as I'm thoroughly sick of this subject (again). |
There isn't a way to fix it (Marketeering) unless individuals put effort into it.
THere isn't a way to fix it (PvP IOs) short of a new system. I suggested a PvP Merit system in the "PvP IOs aren't being produced" thread in the PvP section...award Merits to all participants in PvP events, award more for kills, winning, saves...price random PvP IO rolls at 30-40 PvP Merits (Avid PvPers PvP A LOT) and thus more supply is introduced into the game.
That or increasing the drop rate...
Ack misquoted there, sorry.
Generally PvPers in an organized setting will keep the jabs to themselves; as for the KB issue it's resolvable by IO slotting, pretty much and you need a high amount of them to cover all the bases.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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Definitely an advocate for this idea. Doubt it would ever be implemented. That would be too many resources used for a community that's smaller than the Futa, catgirl and Furry communities. |
Originally Posted by Neuronia
There isn't a way to fix it (Marketeering) unless individuals put effort into it.
THere isn't a way to fix it (PvP IOs) short of a new system. I suggested a PvP Merit system. |
The devs would be better off adding mood lighting to arena options for the ERPers.
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I'd have to disagree with that statement. As much as you may dislike him, macskull is quite knowledgeable and helpful.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
just throw him on ignore Hyperstrike. He's been reported to be one of the major griefers and hell-reppers on the forums. Unfortunately, one can abuse the rep system, or the forum system, without abusing the rules, so I think the GM's hands are tied for this player.
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All he was doing was calling out Hyper on his method of kb mitigation in PvP, which is an area that I know is macskull's demesne.
I disagree on the idea of PvP Merits on two grounds.
1> The Merit system was the beginning of the Market woes we are seeing now.
There are other factors, of course, like AE, but merits started the downhill snowball imho.
The three big factors merits introduced were: Merits *instead* of tf drops -- ie. Posi's
Bait and Switch move away from the original "in addition to" statement.
That was a BIG hit to supply.
Merits being non-tradeable and non-sellable lead directly to hoarding behaviour,
and again, a distinctly reduced supply of items to market.
Finally, the way merit rolls were implemented led directly to a skew towards
higher level players being the largest group of rollers, getting drops at the
top level of the io ranges which is a notable factor in the lack of mid-range
supply.
2> The devs will make the same problematic system with PvP merits.
Typically, you wont get enough of them until high level - a disincentive to
PvP at anything other than L50. PvP is already skewed towards L50 now,
but a PvP merit system would push it even further in that direction.
It will be a dead certainty that PvP merits won't be tradeable either and you'll
get the exact same behaviours that we see in the existing merit system
with the corresponding issues.
No Thanks.
The real problem is (and has been) that the last several major game changes
have directly lead to a> Supply Shortage b> Correspondingly more inf
chasing fewer goods, which is compounded by the L50 inf bug fix, and AE
producing many L50's (that generally spend less inf in the mid levels during
their run to 50).
A PvP Merit system is not going to correct, or even address those core problems
and, imho would just add yet another similar core problem...
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Actually I think a PvP Merit system would work better than the regular merit system does. Here are my reasons:
1. The regular merit system replaced a guaranteed random recipe drop with a guaranteed merit drop. In PvP it would be replacing a possible recipe drop with a guaranteed merit drop. This means that the supply would be about the same (assuming merit rates were balanced correctly) and that adjusting the supply rate would be easier. At the very least the supply would be smoothed out and less random, if you PvP and win you are garunteed a recipe eventually even if the RNG hates you.
2. The usefulness of sub-50 PvPIOs is significantly lower than the usefulness of sub-50 regular IOs. With exemplaring there is very little reason for a PvPer to be at a level lower than 50 (no doubt there are some sub-50 leagues but they are the exception) and PvPIOs are like Purples in that the set bonuses and globals remain active even when you exemplar more than 3 levels below the IO level. The only advantage a sub-50 PvPIO has over a level 50 PvPIO is that you can slot it earlier.
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Well, I definitely agree with the last one. But do we know for a fact that merits are being hoarded, and by hoarded do you mean saved for a higher level, or not rolled at all?|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
The three big factors merits introduced were: Merits *instead* of tf drops -- ie. Posi's Bait and Switch move away from the original "in addition to" statement.
That was a BIG hit to supply. Merits being non-tradeable and non-sellable lead directly to hoarding behaviour, and again, a distinctly reduced supply of items to market. Finally, the way merit rolls were implemented led directly to a skew towards higher level players being the largest group of rollers, getting drops at the top level of the io ranges which is a notable factor in the lack of mid-range supply. |
If most of the supply pre-merits was coming from educated players who knew that running Katies ad nauseum was the fastest means of production (and let's face it, that was an exploit), I'm not sure it would follow that those players would move to other means and then just hold onto the merits because they didn't know what to do with them (though yes, some for a while held onto them out of spite). Nevermind players who earn merits who don't run TF (hi) or can generate them via Ouroboros at a breakneck clip.
What I think we'd need to see is:
1. How fast TF drops were generated pre-merits
2. How fast the equivalent - merits/20 - are generated now
3. How many merits are stored on characters (hoarded)
I doubt we'll see these of course, but they might be informative.
Things are further complicated by AE of course - too much inf, fast leveling, recommendations against using tickets for gold rolls, etc.
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
Gec72:
Holding onto reward merits instead of using them to create items for sale reduces the availability of stuff, recipes especially, on the markets, regardless of reason. It's not necessarily hoarding of any kind. It could be because of lack of knowledge on how the merit reward system works, saving up for the sure-thing purchase or lack of interest, but the end result is the same.
I'm with FourSpeed on at least one point as well: the roll system itself blows. Players can't choose the exact level for their reward rolls via merits or AE tickets - you get recipes at your level or the set's maximum level, whichever is highest. I think that's one of the big reasons behind the lack of mid-level recipes available right now.
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I don't know how widespread it is. But I am one of them. |
Originally Posted by gec72
Well, I definitely agree with the last one. But do we know for a fact that merits are being hoarded, and by hoarded do you mean saved for a higher level, or not rolled at all?
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I'm hoarding merits on toons that completely IO'd. I also have been waiting to hit level 50 before doing any rolls on toons that weren't IO'd. Few of my toons are sitting on 5K+ merits each.
Majority of these merits are from TFs: at least one ITF and one LGTF daily, Manti, Numina, Kahn, STF few times a week.
One of my friends has multiple toons at merits cap.
So, you have definately 2 players who are doing that
You're a dirty merit farmur and exploiter.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
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Originally Posted by gec72
Well, I definitely agree with the last one. But do we know for a fact that merits are being hoarded, and by hoarded do you mean saved for a higher level, or not rolled at all?
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I am definitely hording mine. It started out just as uncertainty how to best use them. Later it was just a case of it being easier to come up with inf than to use merits. Now I have so many of them it would be a real pain to try and clean them out and I have no real need to anyway.
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Of the people I know well enough to know what they do with their merits, about half keep several hundred merits on hand, often on multiple characters. It's something you can turn into basically anything on demand. If you actually want inf, you just have to buy the right thing and sell it. Personally, I like to keep several types of wealth on hand - I store inf, recipes/enhancements and merits. When I want to buy something, I get to choose the method of payment that makes the most sense at the time. I don't store every merit I get - I set a "reserve", and once I meet it I start rolling randoms again... usually.|
Originally Posted by gec72
Well, I definitely agree with the last one. But do we know for a fact that merits are being hoarded, and by hoarded do you mean saved for a higher level, or not rolled at all?
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I know a couple of people who keep thousands of merits on hand, and one who had multiple 50s at or near the merit cap. When he hit the cap, he liquidated it all and threw a big event with about 10B in total worth of prizes. He's getting there again.
Edit: my example person with multiple near-cap characters is the same one as Nord.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No, you can't just lay this on the players. The players 'created' the problem using the system given to them by the devs. To the extent that a problem exists, it exists because the devs designed a flawed system.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And you're essentially asking the devs to fix a player-created problem (that scads of people PL'ed to 50 (multiple times) and now want "bling").
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And they are the *ONLY* ones who can change it.
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The Mentor Project
So really what you guys are saying then is that the merit cap is too high.
I guess I understand - it's like having liquidity in real estate, or gold, or foreign currency, or whatever. And for those with vast amounts of inf, no use in cashing them in if they really don't need to. If you're given a drop on the spot, you're forced to deal with it much sooner.
I guess what I don't get is folks in the same forum lamenting that there isn't enough supply, but at the same time admitting that their own actions help lead to the lack of supply. And then that the devs should do something about it. Isn't that more or less saying "Well, we can't really control our own behavior. Devs, you need to do something to force us into acting in the best interest of the markets?" That in essence, the devs gave the players too much freedom?
NordBlast: before merits, were you still running two TF a day? Were you selling the drops?
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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Basically, yes. They created a system that, in total, creates a mix of apathy and flexibility that makes some degree of hoarding attractive. Some of us in here may be making irrational use of that system, but some of us are making practical use of it too, under the prevailing circumstances. That doesn't mean the circumstances are ideal for keeping supply up.
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Originally Posted by gec72
I guess what I don't get is folks in the same forum lamenting that there isn't enough supply, but at the same time admitting that their own actions help lead to the lack of supply. And then that the devs should do something about it. Isn't that more or less saying "Well, we can't really control our own behavior. Devs, you need to do something to force us into acting in the best interest of the markets?" That in essence, the devs gave the players too much freedom?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
As of right now, you're simply going to rip on whatever I say.
So feel free, as I'm thoroughly sick of this subject (again).
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