Quote:
You should try playing a squishy in even semi-competitive PvP before you tell someone they can PvP with SOs.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
WRONG!
Maybe you cannot PVP against other people with multi-billion builds. But you can still PVP. |
(You can't. You will get called as the target, KB'd, mezzed, and spiked repeatedly because you'll lack both the necessary KB protection and hit points to be competitive. I mean, if you think that's fun, that's one thing.)
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
This.
|
Originally Posted by macskull
You should try playing a squishy in even semi-competitive PvP before you tell someone they can PvP with SOs.
(You can't. You will get called as the target, KB'd, mezzed, and spiked repeatedly because you'll lack both the necessary KB protection and hit points to be competitive. I mean, if you think that's fun, that's one thing.) |
Yeah, I think it's a little like saying you can run +4/x8 missions with SOs. I mean, yeah, technically you can, but it's not likely to go real well in general.
I think what's being discussed is top-end PvP versus "casual" PvP. In so-called casual PvP, people aren't going for maximum cuthroat. In the top end, prisoner's dilemma suggests you must have KB prot, or you'll be bounced around till you can't do anything.
You don't have to play in the top end, but if you want to, you do have to use IOs to achieve anything. It's similar to PvE, but people who PvP seriously typically always want to advance to the top end. There's no real equivalent to being "serious about PvE". You can be really into PvE without powergaming, because it's not competitive.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by macskull
You should try playing a squishy in even semi-competitive PvP before you tell someone they can PvP with SOs.
(You can't. You will get called as the target, KB'd, mezzed, and spiked repeatedly because you'll lack both the necessary KB protection and hit points to be competitive. I mean, if you think that's fun, that's one thing.) |
LOL
Id read this thread
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=200384&page=2
particularly starting with this post
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...8&postcount=48
if you want to argue with them, you don't need to do any work just pull up the posts.
Edit just a note that was for Hyperstrike.
Quote:
What is the argument in favor of the current two-tiered approach? The one where we have one set of highly desirable items that can be obtained in multiple ways--inf, merits, tickets, random rolls or saving up--and another set of items that can only be obtained through drops.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It could also suggest that there's simply too much influence in the system to properly balance influence-priced transactions. Inflation is always the result of too much money chasing too few items, not just a one-sided lack of supply, and influence is all too easy to earn in the game at the present time.
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Consolidate everything under the first umbrella and the system is substantially less broken overall.
Quote:
Feel free to put whatever limits you want on your own posts. They don't apply to mine.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I very carefully confined my discussion to regular set IOs and purples, as that's where I came into the conversation.
|
Quote:
Backwards. The ability to use merits and tickets to obtain things ordinarily only achievable through drops is the compromise, not the norm. Those mechanisms were put in by the devs to create opportunities to earn some, but not all of the otherwise uncommon or rare items. If you believe there is a slippery slope that warrants extending that system to all drops or none, then it would have been none, not all.
|
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
What is the argument in favor of the current two-tiered approach? The one where we have one set of highly desirable items that can be obtained in multiple ways--inf, merits, tickets, random rolls or saving up--and another set of items that can only be obtained through drops.
Consolidate everything under the first umbrella and the system is substantially less broken overall. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Quote:
Mac you "CAN" PvP with a SO'ed out build. You'll just get farmed.
|
Originally Posted by macskull
You should try playing a squishy in even semi-competitive PvP before you tell someone they can PvP with SOs.
(You can't. You will get called as the target, KB'd, mezzed, and spiked repeatedly because you'll lack both the necessary KB protection and hit points to be competitive. I mean, if you think that's fun, that's one thing.) |
Quote:
When you're replying to me, what I wrote is germane, and bringing in some outside consideration and pretending it addresses what I wrote is basically deceitful.
|
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
Feel free to put whatever limits you want on your own posts. They don't apply to mine.
|
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
Compromise? Norm? Either way it is the state of the game and for those highly desired rare items that can be purchased with merits and tickets it stands out as a very good way of striking a balance between cost, rarity and supply. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Backwards. The ability to use merits and tickets to obtain things ordinarily only achievable through drops is the compromise, not the norm. Those mechanisms were put in by the devs to create opportunities to earn some, but not all of the otherwise uncommon or rare items. If you believe there is a slippery slope that warrants extending that system to all drops or none, then it would have been none, not all.
|
It's not a slippery slope, it's an established template that we'd be well served to see applied to all drops.
Quote:
Thanks, I'll decide for myself what's germane.
|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
When you're replying to me, what I wrote is germane, and bringing in some outside consideration and pretending it addresses what I wrote is basically deceitful.
|
Quote:
I don't think anyone is agruing that you can participate in PvP with SOs. you also CAN run an AV mission at level 10. |
Originally Posted by Tokyo
Mac you "CAN" PvP with a SO'ed out build. You'll just get farmed.
|
Having the ability to participate isn't the issue - its the ability to compete.
Also, even in casual PvP - SO build vs SO build - KB still wins.
You can argue that the issue isn't with IOs, its with PvP. I would agree with you. But, we have been told that PvP will not be changed drastically, only tweaked. You would need a pretty big tweak to fix this issue. So PvPers will do something we have been accused of not doing: adapt to the given situation.
We have 2 choices in adapting:
1. Reroll specific melee toons with built in protection
2. IO
Option one wasn't acceptable in i4, in i9, in i12. You should be able to PvP with any concept character you want. Option 2 is what is being discussed in this post
Quote:
Again, NOT the same thing as "not able to PVP".|
Originally Posted by macskull
You should try playing a squishy in even semi-competitive PvP before you tell someone they can PvP with SOs.
(You can't. You will get called as the target, KB'd, mezzed, and spiked repeatedly because you'll lack both the necessary KB protection and hit points to be competitive. I mean, if you think that's fun, that's one thing.) |
And I repeat my question, why should such a player who "doesn't want to" do anything but PVP be given cheap and easy access to said enhancers?
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
You still have the ability to compete.|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Having the ability to participate isn't the issue - its the ability to compete.
|
Quote:
| Also, even in casual PvP - SO build vs SO build - KB still wins. |
Because you "want to play what you want to play" right?
This comes down to choices. If you choose to play in a certain way, then you're choosing to assume responsibilities of setting yourself up to play that way.
Quote:
| Option one wasn't acceptable in i4, in i9, in i12. You should be able to PvP with any concept character you want. |
And while I agree, to a certain extent, about being able to play what you want, the realities of PVP kinda...well...put the kibosh on that notion doesn't it?
And I still fail to see an inherent promise that you'd be given quick, cheap, and easy access to whatever IOs you need to overcome the current FOTM.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
I'm not saying they should, but this is breaking down into the fact that hard-core PvPers often have little interest in booking the PvE time required to obtain top-end gear. This isn't a challenge unique to CoH by any means.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And I repeat my question, why should such a player who "doesn't want to" do anything but PVP be given cheap and easy access to said enhancers?
|
My answer to basically every complaint about the market is "be patient" and "play the (PvE) game". I know that both of those are badly incompatible with the mindset of those whose interest is primarily competitive PvP. If they have to go through days, weeks or months of PvE interaction to get a top flight character, that's time they spend potentially unable to be effective in ladder and league PvP environments.
If you're presented with that requirement, and there are other games where you can become much more engaged in PvP essentially immediately, what's the motivation to PvP here?
I do think a time investment makes sense. I also think that time investment should be in PvP, and not enforced to be in PvE, if they really want to maintain a hard core PvP community (which is usually the nucleus of the larger PvP community in most games.) There are several potential solutions to this.
One is to break the hell out of the game via PL tricks. Hard-core PvPers loved the I14 AE wave for the opportunity it gave them to create new PvP-ready level 50s and the scads of money they made doing it.
Another approach, taken in games like Guild Wars, is to give you the option to create "PvP only" characters who can basically buy all the basic PvE gear in the character screen, but who can't ever play PvE or get that gear out of the arenas.
Yet another approach is to make PvP only gear which only drops in PvP. I'm not talking PvPOs here. PvPOs are, frankly, damn sweet gear on levels approaching purples. There's a decent consensus around that this was a mistake, and making them pretty sweet in PvE too only complicated matters.
Finally, specifically to our game, I think there's probably a problem with KB mechanics in PvP. If you're hard-core at all, you must have a certain (very high) level of KB protection, as other posters have been saying. When people have distilled high-end min/maxed victory conditions down to that kind of binary line that then dictates something everyone puts in their build, I think that's probably indicative of something that wasn't thought through to its proper logical consequence. (Notably, people were talking about KB/KU spikes when I13 was on test, but I think how player feedback went with that release's PvP changes is somewhat legendary at this point.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Would you play tic tac toe if the other guy got the first 2 moves ?
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You still have the ability to compete.
And I still fail to see an inherent promise that you'd be given quick, cheap, and easy access to whatever IOs you need to overcome the current FOTM. |
Quote:
Yes. But I'm someone who doesn't mind a modicum of challenge and isn't looking for "a sure thing".
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Would you play tic tac toe if the other guy got the first 2 moves ?
|
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
I don't think you understand. What the PvPers in here are talking about is a "sure thing" in the loss column.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Yes. But I'm someone who doesn't mind a modicum of challenge and isn't looking for "a sure thing".
|
In competitive play, and against a team that realizes you have a weakness to KD (by trying their powers on you), you will lose unless they are incompetent.
It's a little like competing in the Grand Prix with a Prius you got off of a used car lot.
If you're just talking about wandering into a zone and messing around with whoever you find there, then sure, lacking KB might work or might not, and maybe you find that challenge interesting. Competitive folks won't find that interesting - when they find that gap in their build, they'll try to address it. They'll also try to exploit it in other people's builds every time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Your definition of compete must be different than mine - compete =/= show up. My grandfather could show up to a flag football game and 'participate.' that does not mean that he is going to compete. If your concept of competing is the old "Show up and do your best Billy!" and you repeated get your head kicked in over and over again, then you must be a really really patient person. Judging by your posts in this thread, I would say you are not. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And I still fail to see an inherent promise that you'd be given quick, cheap, and easy access to whatever IOs you need to overcome the current FOTM. |
Einstein said that "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I've PvPed with the new and old systems quite a bit. Its Insane to expect that you can compete on a sqhishy without KB protection. You just can't do it - if you would like video evidence, I'm sure I can set up a livestream of me playing (Hell, we can get people who are considered the best in the game) to prove my point. I don't think you would watch though.
I didn't come here for free IOs, I was hoping to add to the discussion and see there was some type of solution that would help both sides.
Quote:
Now maybe (probably) I'm being obtuse, but I'm militantly indifferent to the concerns of "players" who simply want things with no effort.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not saying they should, but this is breaking down into the fact that hard-core PvPers often have little interest in booking the PvE time required to obtain top-end gear. This isn't a challenge unique to CoH by any means.
|
Quote:
| My answer to basically every complaint about the market is "be patient" and "play the (PvE) game". I know that both of those are badly incompatible with the mindset of those whose interest is primarily competitive PvP. If they have to go through days, weeks or months of PvE interaction to get a top flight character, that's time they spend potentially unable to be effective in ladder and league PvP environments. |
Quote:
| If you're presented with that requirement, and there are other games where you can become much more engaged in PvP essentially immediately, what's the motivation to PvP here? |
Quote:
| I do think a time investment makes sense. I also think that time investment should be in PvP, and not enforced to be in PvE, if they really want to maintain a hard core PvP community (which is usually the nucleus of the larger PvP community in most games.) |
Quote:
| One is to break the hell out of the game via PL tricks. Hard-core PvPers loved the I14 AE wave for the opportunity it gave them to create new PvP-ready level 50s and the scads of money they made doing it. |
Quote:
| Another approach, taken in games like Guild Wars, is to give you the option to create "PvP only" characters who can basically buy all the basic PvE gear in the character screen, but who can't ever play PvE or get that gear out of the arenas. |
Quote:
| Yet another approach is to make PvP only gear which only drops in PvP. I'm not talking PvPOs here. PvPOs are, frankly, damn sweet gear on levels approaching purples. There's a decent consensus around that this was a mistake, and making them pretty sweet in PvE too only complicated matters. |
Quote:
| Finally, specifically to our game, I think there's probably a problem with KB mechanics in PvP. |
Quote:
| If you're hard-core at all, you must have a certain (very high) level of KB protection, as other posters have been saying. |
It's simply easier/more convenient to stack on godlike levels of -KB.
Quote:
| When people have distilled high-end min/maxed victory conditions down to that kind of binary line that then dictates something everyone puts in their build, I think that's probably indicative of something that wasn't thought through to its proper logical consequence. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Forgotten... Hypers argument is that you CAN compete in PvP with SOs. Is it advisible? **** no.|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Einstein said that "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I've PvPed with the new and old systems quite a bit. Its Insane to expect that you can compete on a sqhishy without KB protection. You just can't do it - if you would like video evidence, I'm sure I can set up a livestream of me playing (Hell, we can get people who are considered the best in the game) to prove my point. I don't think you would watch though.
|
Your argument shouldn't be "No you can't." Because you obviously can compete (unless the league or team leaders decide to exclude SO builds).
Your argument should be. "Yes you can compete with SOs. However, It is ******* retarded to compete in pvp with SOs because you will be farmed if you do."
the ability to compete is different from being competitive.
Anyway, stupid argument is stupid.
Quote:
The problem is you're discussing this in the marketing forum. The original point being argued about was "why is stuff so friggin' expensive".|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
I didn't come here for free IOs, I was hoping to add to the discussion and see there was some type of solution that would help both sides.
|
What you're looking for is a fix in the mechanics of PVP. Not a marketing fix.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
As long as we're on a PvP tangent...
My son has recently discovered Recluse's Victory. He had a fun time controlling pillboxes and robots there...when nobody was around.
I warned him however that should he encounter someone, he'd be in trouble. He eventually did, and relayed that he was held then killed in one shot. Then killed a couple more times. Then he decided to do something else.
Seems to be a barrier for new PvPers - they give up before they even learn how to do it (I did the same). I wonder if there needs to be some system to "raise" PvP characters. A couple of possible approaches:
* A distinct PvP leveling process, where kills and other pvp tasks lead to a sort of pvp xp. Rather than have the PvP zones set you at a PvE level, have a zone progression based on your merit as a PvPer. So a PvP toon starts in Bloody Bay, gets good enough at PvP to go to Siren's Call, then Warburg, etc. Maybe even add a couple zones to fill in gaps. Doesn't matter what your PvE level is. If you're good enough, you progress. If you're not you don't, but you stay in a zone with others of your ability.
* A chess-like rating system. Never PvP'd before? Ok, you're a 1000. Get beat a few times, rating goes down. Win a few times, rating goes up. How much it goes up depends on the rating of your opponent. If you're a 2500 and you constantly beat on 800s, you don't make a lot of progress. If you're a 1000 but beat a 1400 - well...good job.
Now, tying this back into the market, somewhat. Adjust the drop rate based on the ratings of the combatants. Again, if you're beating up on substandard competition - farming them - you don't have as good a chance at getting a drop. If you're defeating other pvpers on your level, your chances are improved. Above your level? Better still. Of course, so we don't have 1000s farming 2500s, the rating system would really sting that 2500 for getting defeated by an adversary that low. Maybe also increase the rate just off of your level as well. If you've earned a high ranking, you've been at it for a while and you deserve a better chance than someone who's just started out.
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
Quote:
No. I understand completely. I'm just saying that the "fix" being pushed here as a "market correction" isn't what they need.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't think you understand.
|
What they need is a fix on the PVP mechanics to destroy what is essentially creating an FOTM.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
which supports my assertion that supply is broken for these items. Making them purchasable with merits fixes that problem and setting a merit price at an appropriately high level (whatever that is) balances them in terms of how easily obtained they are compared to less rare items.
Ultra-rare obviously isn't intended to mean off-market sales at 2x the inf cap or more. Just like common/uncommon/rare is reflected in market prices for items that are already purhcasable with merits, the same can be true for ultra-rare.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...en#post2628075
Notice anything? The thread, and Castle's entire post, is about PVP IOs. We've been talking about purple drops. You've casually omitted Castle's topic and made as if his comments applied to purples.
As far as I know, no purple ha ever sold for 2 billion influence as you assert, and as you try to make Castle appear to assert. PVP IOs yes, but PVP IOs are rarer than purples for additional reasons -- the small PVP population, the (apparent) fact that many PVPers lost interest after the "diminishing returns" change, etc.) In fact, the really super-expensive PVP IOs (those 2 billion ones) are actually a very few specific items with truly unique advantages (global defense, -teleport, +life AND +end, and so on).
Hell, I recently (I think it was last month) bought my first PVP IO recipe for only 15 million -- a triple, at that. That's not a bad price at all for what it was.
I very carefully confined my discussion to regular set IOs and purples, as that's where I came into the conversation. PVP IOs are a different animal in some important ways. It's not correct to assume they are priced like purples or vice-versa.
It's worthless for me to complain about your attempt to conflate purples with PVP IOs and to misrepresent Castle to support your position, but it's a good idea for anyone reading this thread to weigh that when considering the accuracy, sincerity, and validity of your posts.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog