Replace aggro hardcap with diminishing returns


Aett_Thorn

 

Posted

As the title says. Currently, the enemy AI is hardwired that, if there are seventeen enemies attacking you, the rest will ignore you completely. Now, let's face it, seventeen enemies is a handful at best in a game that cheerfully throws dozens of enemies at you at once and completely inadequate for players who seek out huge battles intentionally. It's also felt hardest by archetypes {tankers {and brutes?}} for whom aggro management is part and parcel of their team role, as it's essentially saying that this is the most you can do, no matter your playstyle, build or personal skill.

Thus, what I propose is replacing the hard limit of NPC aggro with a gradual curve of diminishing aggro returns, where past a certain limit, every enemy aggroed incurs a penalty toward the aggro of the next.

For example, {and I'm pulling these numbers out of my rear}, there are ten enemies attacking you. You attack another one, but since ten is the limit where diminishing returns start to kick in, a few points are subtracted from the aggro toward you that attack created, making it easier for that enemy to break away and attack someone else. You attack another enemy, and a few points more are subtracted from that attack, and so on, and so on, making it inherently more difficult to keep the attention of an entire group of enemies the more enemies pile on you.

That way, in theory at least, the number of enemies a player can keep aggro on is placed more squarely in their hands, rather than a seemingly arbitrary number.

Did I miss anything?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinch View Post
As the title says. Currently, the enemy AI is hardwired that, if there are seventeen enemies attacking you, the rest will ignore you completely. Now, let's face it, seventeen enemies is a handful at best in a game that cheerfully throws dozens of enemies at you at once and completely inadequate for players who seek out huge battles intentionally. It's also felt hardest by archetypes {tankers {and brutes?}} for whom aggro management is part and parcel of their team role, as it's essentially saying that this is the most you can do, no matter your playstyle, build or personal skill.

Thus, what I propose is replacing the hard limit of NPC aggro with a gradual curve of diminishing aggro returns, where past a certain limit, every enemy aggroed incurs a penalty toward the aggro of the next.

For example, {and I'm pulling these numbers out of my rear}, there are ten enemies attacking you. You attack another one, but since ten is the limit where diminishing returns start to kick in, a few points are subtracted from the aggro toward you that attack created, making it easier for that enemy to break away and attack someone else. You attack another enemy, and a few points more are subtracted from that attack, and so on, and so on, making it inherently more difficult to keep the attention of an entire group of enemies the more enemies pile on you.

That way, in theory at least, the number of enemies a player can keep aggro on is placed more squarely in their hands, rather than a seemingly arbitrary number.

Did I miss anything?
I imagine that this would actually be WORSE than the hard limit. Especially for Tankers.


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Posted

Can't they just remove the agro cap? Or make it something like capped at 30?


 

Posted

Diminishing returns would be computationally intensive compared to the current system.

That alone could make the system unfeasible.



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Posted

you also can agro as much as you like. you just have to kill some within time to keep the agro from the ones that didn't follow.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
you also can agro as much as you like. you just have to kill some within time to keep the agro from the ones that didn't follow.
This right hear, when I'm farming and I want more then 17 enemys on me attack 1 from each spawn you want aggroed and if you can kill them fast enough the spawns you attacked will keep coming.


 

Posted

If I remember correctly, the reason we have a hardcap in the first place WAS because of farming. I think there's some build that's perfect for farming and they would aggro the entire map and then wipe them out with one hugely powerful AoE. The hardcap was so only a mob or two could possibly be pulled at a time and therefore said AoE couldn't kill an entire map in one go.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneirohero View Post
If I remember correctly, the reason we have a hardcap in the first place WAS because of farming. I think there's some build that's perfect for farming and they would aggro the entire map and then wipe them out with one hugely powerful AoE. The hardcap was so only a mob or two could possibly be pulled at a time and therefore said AoE couldn't kill an entire map in one go.
Thing is, now we have target limits so that you can't AoE a whole map in one go even if you can get it into one place. Not that I'm sure that'd stop people from finding a way to pull it off if we got the capability back.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelenar View Post
Thing is, now we have target limits so that you can't AoE a whole map in one go even if you can get it into one place.
If the Devs removed the aggro cap the very next post would be a petition to remove the AoE target cap, and then we're back where we started.


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Posted

And hopefully that proposition would be considered on its own merits and accepted or rejected on them. Let's not jump on the slippery slope semantical bobsled.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinch View Post
And hopefully that proposition would be considered on its own merits and accepted or rejected on them. Let's not jump on the slippery slope semantical bobsled.
My point is more that they shouldn't be considered separately, since they are intertwined in the way the game works and especially in the desires of some of the players. I'm not proposing a slippery slope so much as I am pointing out that the aggro-cap question is really a question about the entire "number of foes" cap system.


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Posted

how about just.. I dunno... raising the aggro cap?

It would take a lot less code

It wouldn't piss players off trying to make sense of diminishing returns.

It'd make the developers lives easier too.

Quote:
And hopefully that proposition would be considered on its own merits and accepted or rejected on them. Let's not jump on the slippery slope semantical bobsled.
You already jumped on it full force and are trying to catch Richard Hammond.


 

Posted

This makes no sense. Think of it this way: if you are the enemy and you see seventeen other guys attacking a person, don't you think it would make more sense to attack the people that aren't being attacked by seventeen guys? The aggro cap makes sense in an in-character, game world sort of way - there are so many guys piled up on that one person that it would just be easier and more efficient to go after another guy.

Of course, nobody cares about common sense because IT'S A GAME LOLOLOL GAMES DON'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE. Whatever.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg View Post
Diminishing returns would be computationally intensive compared to the current system.

That alone could make the system unfeasible.
If my understanding of aggro mechanics are correct (which admittedly they might not be, but could you blame me?), I don't even think that it's possible to program in the first place.

Any modification to aggro generated would have to be done to the player, which would instantly affect all of their powers and would therefore make it harder to hold the aggro of any of the first 10 enemies.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelenar View Post
Thing is, now we have target limits so that you can't AoE a whole map in one go even if you can get it into one place. Not that I'm sure that'd stop people from finding a way to pull it off if we got the capability back.
As I understand it, Rain of Fire, Ice Storm and Blizzard all have no target cap.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum View Post
As I understand it, Rain of Fire, Ice Storm and Blizzard all have no target cap.

Im pretty sure the arsonist in thugs primary for masterminds has no target cap either.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum View Post
As I understand it, Rain of Fire, Ice Storm and Blizzard all have no target cap.
rain of arrows and freezing rain have no target caps either


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain View Post
Can't they just remove the agro cap? Or make it something like capped at 30?
I think you've to go back to the old days to see what happened. It was the playstyle that is not what the dev want. Basically, the tanker herded the whole map, and then a couple blasters went to nuke. The rest of the team just stood and watch. Then reset the mission and repeat. Every team in Peregrine Island did the same thing, and nearly nothing else.

In principle, there is no need to stop the herd-and-nuke, and impose artifical aggro cap and max-target. It boils down to the fact that certain characters are very tough (with respect to certain types of mobs), and can't be defeated even by the whole map of mobs. Since it is not easy to buff the mobs without causing problems to other players, and there was enough nerf to players already (GDR and ED), such artificial caps are used, unless you guys want another GDR.

Regarding the suggestion using diminishing return, I believe a tanker can probably herd the whole map, just that the aggro can be lost easily. I bet the lost aggro is probably not a big deal if the team just want to nuke. Under such scheme, the team just needs to bring more nukes because of the max target.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum View Post
As I understand it, Rain of Fire, Ice Storm and Blizzard all have no target cap.
As you understand it, you're wrong.
Pets.RainofFire.RainofFire: Max targets hit 16
Pets.IceStorm.IceStorm: Max targets hit 16
Pets.Blizzard.Blizzard: Max targets hit 16

And, since it was mentioned...
Pets.RainofArrows.RainofArrows: Max targets hit 16
Pets.FreezingRain.FreezingRain: Max targets hit 16

Amusingly, all of the above pets have no target cap for their "Avoid" power, so if you've got 17 critters in the area, 1 of them will run out despite not being damaged. [Rain of Arrows] also summons a second pet which doesn't have a target cap, but that second pet is named "RainofArrows Visual", and doesn't really do anything.

With regard to the Thugs Arsonist. The Arsonist's Fire Bomb power (granted by Upgrade Equipment) summons a pet named "Burn" with a max target count of 5 for the damage, and no target cap for the avoid, just like all of the above powers.

However.

All of the above powers come from pets, and the power that summons the pet only summons one instance of the pet, so there's no need to place a target cap on the summon power - the summon doesn't care about targets, it just summons a single pet.

The Arsonist's Fire Bomb power (which summons the Burn pet) will create one Burn for each target within Fire Bomb's area. Fire Bomb has no target cap, either, so the Arsonist is capable of summoning an unlimited number of Burn pets at once. And each Burn pet could damage 5 targets at once.

Note: the Arsonist's Fire Bomb power is his only power which acts this way. All of his other powers have proper target caps.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
As you understand it, you're wrong.
Pets.RainofFire.RainofFire: Max targets hit 16
Pets.IceStorm.IceStorm: Max targets hit 16
Pets.Blizzard.Blizzard: Max targets hit 16

And, since it was mentioned...
Pets.RainofArrows.RainofArrows: Max targets hit 16
Pets.FreezingRain.FreezingRain: Max targets hit 16

Amusingly, all of the above pets have no target cap for their "Avoid" power, so if you've got 17 critters in the area, 1 of them will run out despite not being damaged. [Rain of Arrows] also summons a second pet which doesn't have a target cap, but that second pet is named "RainofArrows Visual", and doesn't really do anything.
THANK YOU. I've suddenly been seeing this idea crop up just in the last few days, and been trying to pin posters down on where they got this idea. Example.

I was debating making a major thread about it. I hope your post refutes it well enough that no further effort is needed.

Sorry to disappoint, people.


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----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
THANK YOU. I've suddenly been seeing this idea crop up just in the last few days, and been trying to pin posters down on where they got this idea. Example.

I was debating making a major thread about it. I hope your post refutes it well enough that no further effort is needed.

Sorry to disappoint, people.
I know exactly where they get the idea. The rain and burn-type pseudopets tick multiple times per second. Each time, they may hit a *different* 16 enemies. Thus giving the impression that they don't have a target cap.


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Posted

based on what ive seen in game from actual experience using most of the powers mentioned (rain of arrows, blizzard, freezing rain, ect with the exception of rain of fire), ive used them on mobs way larger than 16 enemies and taken out a single mob of 25 with blizzard, the only thing left alive in the mob was the bosses because they have enough hp to survive the massive DoT from bizzard, same can be said for rain of arrows, ive taken out whole mobs with it before (assuming i had enough dmg buff), even without dmg buffs i still hit everything in the mob regardless how big it was.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow View Post
Every team in Peregrine Island did the same thing, and nearly nothing else.
I think that's quite an overstatement.


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