Why make Tyrant reluctant leader?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-01-24 22:08 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The whole point of Going Rogue is to explore the shades of grey between "Superhero" and "Supervillain".
You also have to realize that Tyrant's story isn't unlike the stories of other dictators. Yes, some dictators take over Julius Caesar style, but some of the worst dictators in history (up to and including Hitler) were elected in an overwhelming majority by a desperate population.
So you have to think... is Tyrant really a reluctant leader, or did he simply pull the "Y'all need a dictator, but it ain't gonna be me" trick because he knew that he was a shoe in for the position?
You have to understand that, when you start out in Praetoria, it's not going to be immediately clear which path leads to heroics and which leads to villainy. I would be shocked if each path didn't have a split that pushed you toward red or blue without forcing you to go immediately to the Loyalist/Resistance side.
I mean, the Resistance might be Freedom Fighters, but their actions could also harm innocents, or even be considered terrorism by modern standards. Similarly, "Police" doesn't always mean "Secret Police". A Praetorian Law Enforcer doesn't have to be in Tyrant's metaphorical pocket.
What I would guess is that the difference between Praetorian Heroes and Praetorian Villains won't be whether or not you're a rebel, but rather how you behave in the Praetorian World.
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But Recluse doesn't even do that. Recluse is going for Darwinian world domination. If you want mustache-twirling evil, look to Westin Phipps.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
We've got Recluse to cover the "I'll get you next time, meddling do-gooders!" villainy now.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Tyrant and Recluse both seem to base their promotion system on that "survival of the fittest" idea - so they have some moustache-twirling stuff in common 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Except that it has been stated that if you join the Resistance you get to go to Paragon City and if you join the Loyalists you get to go to the Etoile Isles.
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Originally Posted by NightErrant
You have to understand that, when you start out in Praetoria, it's not going to be immediately clear which path leads to heroics and which leads to villainy.
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Not true. Posi stated that, upon hitting level 20 in Praetoria, you get to effectively push the "Be a Hero/Be a Villain" button, regardless of whether you ran as a Loyalist or part of the Resistance up until then.|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
Except that it has been stated that if you join the Resistance you get to go to Paragon City and if you join the Loyalists you get to go to the Etoile Isles.
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They've mentioned that the Resistance was the more heroic of the two factions and the Loyalists the more villainous, but everything in Going Rogue is designed to have its own shades of grey.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Political decision. Praetoria is at war with Paragon, Praetoria has always been at war with Paragon.|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
Except that it has been stated that if you join the Resistance you get to go to Paragon City and if you join the Loyalists you get to go to the Etoile Isles.
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Etoile Islands on the other hand... Recluse has shown many times in that past that he's willing to make non-aggression pacts with other powers that are not in direct competition with his authority. The Rikti, for example.
Logically the 'heroes' of Paragon will support and even give aid to the Resistance in their attempt to overthrow the Praetorian leadership that they are at war with, whereas Recluse has no problem making a mutually beneficial agreement with Tyrant and even allowing travel between the two countries.
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Positron has said that the moral choice missions are clearly defined - so I dom't think there'll be too much doubt as to which path is the evil one, and which one is the good one |
Originally Posted by NightErrant
You have to understand that, when you start out in Praetoria, it's not going to be immediately clear which path leads to heroics and which leads to villainy.
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| Similarly, "Police" doesn't always mean "Secret Police". A Praetorian Law Enforcer doesn't have to be in Tyrant's metaphorical pocket. |
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| What I would guess is that the difference between Praetorian Heroes and Praetorian Villains won't be whether or not you're a rebel, but rather how you behave in the Praetorian World. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The "must leave Praetoria at 20" is more us putting 2 and 2 together - there's no confirmation yet |
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Not true. Posi stated that, upon hitting level 20 in Praetoria, you get to effectively push the "Be a Hero/Be a Villain" button, regardless of whether you ran as a Loyalist or part of the Resistance up until then.
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And the final choice you're given just before you leave doesn't mean that your previous career path hasn't been good or evil - the "epic storyline" of the 1-20 content will reveal more about both sides, so even if the Praetorian Police sound ok at level 1, by level 20, you'll have a better idea of what they're really like, so even if you've joined them, you'll still have the chance to jump ship and choose to be a Hero instead.
And even if you've been helping the Resistance, you might find that the general chaos that's part of being free isn't worth it, and so you can switch to become a Villain.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I wouldn't say that of Phipps. His evil is smaller and crueller than that. Someone like Peter Themari I can imagine doing it for the evulz and exulting in it afterwards. Phipps crushes and destroys people because its his job and only gloats about it in secret. Put it a different way, Themari is a boo hiss Villain with a capital V, but Phipps creeps people out because he's so much closer to real world evil.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
But Recluse doesn't even do that. Recluse is going for Darwinian world domination. If you want mustache-twirling evil, look to Westin Phipps.
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As for Tyrant being a reluctant leader - my first thought when I read his bio is 'someone's been reading Richard III', in which, having murdered or imprisoned all of his rivals for the throne, Richard initially refuses the crown, in the full knowledge that the people won't (or can't) take no for an answer.
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If taking it on yourself to punish what you see as "evil" is moral, then the killer in Seven* is a paragon of morality.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
What? Rorschach is not amoral. In fact, I would call him, hyper-moral. He just has no qualms when it comes to punishing those who he has deemed worthy of punishment.
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* I refuse to spell it with a 7 because that would be pronounced "seten"
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It sounded like he was quoting something else in that scene, if you ask me.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight.
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I do hope it's possible to play a Loyalist who goes hero or a Resistance character who goes villain. I have some existing heroes who are more concerned with law than good, and villains who are more concerned with chaos than evil, so the idea of being pigeon-holed into one or the other if I start in Praetoria is a little annoying.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Not true. Posi stated that, upon hitting level 20 in Praetoria, you get to effectively push the "Be a Hero/Be a Villain" button, regardless of whether you ran as a Loyalist or part of the Resistance up until then.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
* I refuse to spell it with a 7 because that would be pronounced "seten"
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Heh you know I must have missed that when reading the comics.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
"Keep your metal mitts off his Granddaughter! No ones is really sure whats up with the two of them. Do you really wanna be the guy to lift up that rock?"
Not sure I'd call making an allusions to the relationship "avoiding it like the plague." |
So if even THEY elude to the rather sordid nature between Tyrant and Dominatrix...I imagine we're probably going to see subtle hints about it but nothing more since this is a teen rated game after all.
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But someone who is loyal to Tyrant wouldn't be classed as a Hero on Primal Earth.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
I do hope it's possible to play a Loyalist who goes hero or a Resistance character who goes villain. I have some existing heroes who are more concerned with law than good, and villains who are more concerned with chaos than evil, so the idea of being pigeon-holed into one or the other if I start in Praetoria is a little annoying.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Absolutely. If you're a Loyalist Super who's never really run afoul of the darker elements of Emperor Cole's rule, it's entirely feasible that you'd see heroes of Primal Earth as your counterparts and allies since you're all doing your part to make sure that justice, law, order, and peace prevail in your respective dimensions. Similarly, if you're a member of the Resistance on Praetorian Earth, you might not really be willing to trust anyone named Marcus Cole or those who follow his example. These folks just might seek help from elsewhere. From someone who hates Marcus Cole as much as they do. Someone who might not have as many scruples about doing whatever it took to eliminate Marcus Cole, even if it's an alternate version. So it would be very nice if both Loyalists and Resistance had the option of choosing which side they went to upon leaving Praetoria.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
I do hope it's possible to play a Loyalist who goes hero or a Resistance character who goes villain. I have some existing heroes who are more concerned with law than good, and villains who are more concerned with chaos than evil, so the idea of being pigeon-holed into one or the other if I start in Praetoria is a little annoying.
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Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
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That might be hard to avoid during the 1-20 content as you rise through the ranks of Tyrant's supporters |
Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater
Absolutely. If you're a Loyalist Super who's never really run afoul of the darker elements of Emperor Cole's rule.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Reluctant?|
Originally Posted by LegionAlpha
Just so I can wrap my head around GR, at first the Praotians were once the evil goatee universe (STO Mirror Mirror) only to be some how retconned to a more Justice Lords( Justice League TV show), why the change? I thought the evil universe thing kinda sounded cool and had characters ready for it. I just don't understand why it had to be more the "reluctant leader" thing over what was established. I know this kinda post is hitting on old news but after reading the background of Tyrant, it made me think to bring this up.
Before the background I thought the jerk wanted to somehow grab for power in a world that had no real leadership or order to him, and morality was almost nonexistent in his mind ( like Rorschach), I got that impression after 6 issues of the comic series and when opportunity knocked to shape the world with his ideals of right and wrong he was all over it. Why do we need another hero we need to relate to on some level? Whats wrong with just having an universe that is just evil or Age of Apocalypse verse? |
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| Cole addressed what was left of the United Nations Security Council. In that momentous speech, Cole spoke of the Roman Empire, and how in times of greatest peril, Rome would elect one man to lead its people and its armies against its enemy. "Divided," said Cole, "humankind will fall, but united in this conflict, it will triumph." To silence cries of "Dictator!," Cole stated that he could not pursue this leadership role because he needed to be on the front lines. The Security Council exploded into conflict. No one could agree on who should become the consul. The members descended into petty bickering, distracting any of them from the looming threat. |
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| Cole's booming voice silenced the Security Council. At that moment, it became clear to everyone in the assembly that only Cole could truly lead humankind against this, its greatest threat. Cole's appointment was immediately proposed, and he took the office grudgingly. Never one for details, Cole delegated many of his tasks to more capable commanders in the world's combined Super Corps. He dubbed this new fighting force the Praetorian Guard. Cole's mandate to this new force was that it was to cut off the head of whatever was leading the Devouring Earth monsters. |
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Once again, Cole spoke to the world, but this time he spoke not to its leaders, but to its people. He told humankind that it had come too far, survived too much, grown too close to simply let its leaders throw it all away. Cole had a plan to return the Earth to the way it once was-in fact, to better than how it had been. He had tamed the beast now known as Hamidon, and Hamidon was a creature tied to the Earth itself. Hamidon could be used to heal the Earth of all its ills. The charred ruins, the polluted waters, and even the radiation zones could be cleansed. To do so, though, Cole needed all the people of Earth to trust in him to lead the way to a new brighter future. It worked. People demanded that their leaders follow Cole, whether the leaders liked it or not. Some leaders or governments joined voluntarily, while others resisted and were crushed by their own citizens. The nations of the world dissolved. In a ceremony where Cole renounced his title of consul to the people of the world, the people instead gave him an even greater title: emperor. |
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Hey, works for me as long as he makes the trains run on time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Ok, I've got some free time now. I'm ready to rule you all. Kneel before Cole.
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Hey GG: Quit posting as if you've already played through the stuff and know what's going to happen. You may have 40,000 posts, but unless you're employed by Paragon Studios or are friends or family of Paragon Studios employees (assuming the F&F beta has even begun), you don't know any more than the rest of us. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That might be hard to avoid during the 1-20 content as you rise through the ranks of Tyrant's supporters
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For all we know, most or all of the unpleasantness that goes on behind the scenes in Praetoria may be explained away or covered up to those who are truly loyal to Cole. I know that you want or expect the character to pretty much be a guy in a white suit with a giant "EVIL!" sign above his head with an arrow pointing down, but from everything we've seen and heard so far, the devs at least appear as if they want to play Tyrant more shades-of-grey. I know that doesn't really work for you, since you've pretty much made it known around here that you're a very "black or white/good or evil" type of person. But don't assume that everyone who leaves Prateoria at level 20 knows for a fact that Marcus Cole kicks puppies and puts grannies in concentration camps. Or that even if they know that not everything is exactly on the level, they wouldn't be willing to chalk it up to being necessary to defend the greater good and ensure peace for all of Praetoria's law-abiding citizens.
You know, just like how the heroes of Primal Earth are able to use guns, knives, swords, axes, and set criminals on fire in order to defend the greater good and ensure peace for all of Paragon City's law-abiding citizens. Or does that not count against us because our Marcus Cole is "a good guy"?
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
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Ummm...about that train thing... |
Originally Posted by Sardan
Hey, works for me as long as he makes the trains run on time.
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I know what you meant, but I have always thought it is hilarious that Mussolini didn't actually make the trains run on time, he just changed the schedule to match the lateness of the train and said, "See? The train's on time!" Then he killed anybody who disagreed.
Take a stroll along the streets of Kings Row, where the Skulls bully hapless citizens, Vahzilok body snatchers lurk in every back alley and the Circle of Thorns perform arcane rituals on any hapless citizen that hasn't already been mugged or murdered.
To a right thinking citizen of Praetoria wouldn't Paragon City appear a terrifying and lawless place which could only benefit from coming under the benevolent rule of Emperor Cole?
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Mother Mayhem makes sure you're not allowed to be anything except "right-thinking" |
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
To a right thinking citizen of Praetoria wouldn't Paragon City appear a terrifying and lawless place which could only benefit from coming under the benevolent rule of Emperor Cole?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Why would anyone be thinking anything other than happy, orderly thoughts in Praetoria, unless there was something wrong with them? Y'know ... unless they were imbalanced or something. In which case, it's a good thing that those sort of people are taken in for treatment. I mean, what if they got violent? What if they hurt you or your family? Thanks to Praetor Tilman [or whatever Mother Mayhem's civie alias will be] and her Seers, we don't have to worry about that sort of thing. We're safe in Praetoria. Safe and happy and free to live our lives without fear of monsters, poverty, sickness, crime, hunger, or war. And we have Emperor Cole to thank for all of this!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Mother Mayhem makes sure you're not allowed to be anything except "right-thinking"
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Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
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So disorderly thoughts would be wondering where a superpowered relation of yours had disappeared to? Or why the family of another superpowered person who disappeared also disappeared when they started asking questions about their missing relative? |
Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater
Why would anyone be thinking anything other than happy, orderly thoughts in Praetoria, unless there was something wrong with them?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
So, why should Praetoria be a goatee-universe?
In essence, that's what the Rogue Isles already are in relation to Paragon City. If Praetoria was a goatee-universe, we'd just have Evil Town, USA and Evil Town, Canada.
As for Rorschach, he's pushing the anti-hero boundaries so far he's already one foot into villain territory. In CoH terms, he's a Vigilante one step away from being a Villain, so he fits right into Praetoria.