Why make Tyrant reluctant leader?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-01-24 22:08 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Not to mention that they needed a good explanation for why there aren't more supers in Praetoria. An explanation which only contradicted the explanation we had already been given by lying ignorant NPCs ("Tyrant and his Praetorians killed all the other supers.") a little bit instead of wholesale, while still allowing for PC supers to be created in Going Rogue.
So the explanation now is that if you're not a 90-percenter in the supers program you escape to Earth Prime at level 20, and that's why there aren't as many supers on Praetorian Earth as on Earth Prime when we fight them in the level 40+ arcs.
The remaining 10% are Mother Mayhem's psychos, Bobcat's catbois, Dominatrix' gimps, etc.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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No need to think hard about it at all - they just need to be more like Primal Earth |
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
Let's assume for the moment that your worse-case argument is correct. Super-powered training is so brutal nine out of ten inductees die. Tyrant can be called many things, but I think we can all agree he is efficient. He keeps his populace in a potentially-Utopian society, and he has shown a dedicated interest in maintaining, at least superficially, that status quo.
So, then, if he's not looking to waste resources, would it not stand to reason that his training is brutal because it's necessary? That is, he's not trying to kill off people with powers -- And why would he? By your arguments, he's already got a dedicated psychic network to reprogram them as needed. -- he's fighting battles intense enough that a nine-in-ten mortality rate is the only one that can adequately prepare soldiers to fight for him? If that were true, it would seem to me that decreasing the mortality-in-training rate would simply weaken his army in the long run. So, I ask you, what's worse? A high percentage of a small group of soldiers dying in training, or a moderate percentage of civilians dying, and the rest living in hell because their potentially-Utopian society was razed. Think long and hard about the math before you answer. |
Also, do the families of disappeared superpowered people who disappear if they ask questions about them count as a moderate percentage of civilians or not?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Why? Primal Earth is proof he's right. Supers were allowed into the wars, and the highly trained ones tended to survive. The less-trained ones... didn't.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No need to think hard about it at all - they just need to be more like Primal Earth
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Also, do the families of disappeared superpowered people who disappear if they ask questions about them count as a moderate percentage of civilians or not?
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They had a choice to join up - superpowered people in Praetoria don't |
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
Why? Primal Earth is proof he's right. Supers were allowed into the wars, and the highly trained ones tended to survive. The less-trained ones... didn't.
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| I dunno. Does the number of "disappearing" families exceed the number of casualties an invasion would cause? |
How can wiping out people who could be of some use in an invasion make the place safer?
Why not keep the 90% who are killed as a reserve instead, in case of an emergency?
By wiping out so many potential helpers, Tyrant's making his empire more open to danger, not less - the whole policy doesn't make sense from the point of view of defending agiant the Devouring Earth.
But it is a good way of removing potential superpowered resistance to his dictatorship
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And look where the world ended up! Violence in the streets! Daily muggings and bank robberies! Destruction on a massive scale! Regular invasion!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They had a choice to join up - superpowered people in Praetoria don't
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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You keep talking about this as if you know what happens to them.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
By wiping out so many potential helpers, Tyrant's making his empire more open to danger, not less - the whole policy doesn't make sense from the point of view of defending agiant the Devouring Earth.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Well, it's kinda odd for the head of the secret police to be signing the orders that make them disappear - if they were being sent overseas, shouldn't that be dealt with by someone in the Praetorian military? |
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
You keep talking about this as if you know what happens to them.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, I'm just going by that "find your boss and beat the crap out of him" quote from Hero Con |
Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater
I know some - like you, for example - would probably like to think that John is killed or something because TYRANT IS AN EVIL MEANIEHEAD. But we don't know. It could be that John takes over Jim's old position (provided that the person below Jim isn't capable of doing a better job of it than John) and that it really is just advancement via better performance with all the usual B.S. stripped away. Or maybe you're right, and Jim plants inflammatory anti-Cole propaganda documents in John's computer and gets John taken away by the authorities. We just don't know.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You're ragging on a draft system? Really? Out of every possible grievance, that's the one you think deserves airtime?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They had a choice to join up - superpowered people in Praetoria don't
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So an invasion is somehow more deadly if you're only protected by the top 10% of superpowered people rather than a full 100% of varying abilities? How can wiping out people who could be of some use in an invasion make the place safer? Why not keep the 90% who are killed as a reserve instead, in case of an emergency? |
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That's a point. The sacrifice of "300 Spartans, 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans and perhaps a few hundred others, the vast majority of whom were killed" did delay the Persians for a while; buying the rest of the Greeks some time to withdraw. Even if all it did was delay the Persian invasion for a short time it is still used as an example of the advantages of training, equipment, and good use of terrain as force multipliers and has become a symbol of courage against overwhelming odds.
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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I think Thermopylae vindicates my opinion that a smaller group of highly trained, specialized soldiers trumps a larger host of lesser-trained individuals.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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So before they left, the Spartans killed everyone who might have been able to defend Sparta if they failed?|
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I think Thermopylae vindicates my opinion that a smaller group of highly trained, specialized soldiers trumps a larger host of lesser-trained individuals.
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Or, to give another example, while the Green Berets might be our best soldiers, there's no reason to massacre the National Guard
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Actually, Spartans did engage in a ridiculously brutal training regimen. Which was the point you were trying to make, I'm sure. Suggesting that Tyrant arbitrarily and pettily decided to wipe out nine-tenths of an already-trained army just before he went to war would be fallacious, erroneous, and just plain wrong.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So before they left, the Spartans killed everyone who might have been able to defend Sparta if they failed?
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Terrain had a lot more to do with the standoff at Thermopylae than training, though training was a factor. On open ground, I don't care how well trained you are, when you're outnumbered 100 to 1, you're pretty much screwed.
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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I think Thermopylae vindicates my opinion that a smaller group of highly trained, specialized soldiers trumps a larger host of lesser-trained individuals.
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Unless if that one man is Blue Steel....
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Originally Posted by NarfMann
you are, when you're outnumbered 100 to 1, you're pretty much screwed.
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In the Arena of Logic, I fight unarmed.
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So maybe killing those other 9 who weren't quite as good as you mightn't have been the best move? |
Originally Posted by NarfMann
On open ground, I don't care how well trained you are, when you're outnumbered 100 to 1, you're pretty much screwed.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
We'll see how things turn out in the beta/release of the game. I think its safe to say there's a wide range of expectations/hopes of how the story will be, how explicitly black or white things will be, etc. I've already gone over my hopes, reasons and disagreements with other views in another thread, so no point in repeating them here.
Question about Tyrant and Dominatrix (assuming they have had sex) - aren't those kinds of hijinks common not only with inbred rednecks Jeff Foxworthy jokes about but also royalty of old? Random thought/wondering, not especialy meant to go anywhere (so run with it if you like).
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Agreed. I think the important thing when building a force like that is to make sure that your logistics are effective and that those of similar ability are grouped together. Killing off your own soldiers has never made an army stronger on the whole, it just improves the average quality.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So maybe killing those other 9 who weren't quite as good as you mightn't have been the best move?
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The less effective troops get to go on the missions that are easiest, or where return is almost impossible. That way if your crappy soldiers have to die, at least they can do something useful in the process.
Taking care of all of your troops, including the ones that suck, is of utmost importance for both morale and force power.
Oh, and on topic: Of course he was reluctant; only a madman would want to have such power over people. Our benevolent leader only wants what is best for his people, and he's the only one with the power to provide it. The best man to lead is the one who fears what he may become if he gains such power, and our Emperor is the best of all of us.
All hail Emperor Cole!
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Fair enough. I'll concede.|
Originally Posted by NarfMann
Agreed. I think the important thing when building a force like that is to make sure that your logistics are effective and that those of similar ability are grouped together. Killing off your own soldiers has never made an army stronger on the whole, it just improves the average quality.
The less effective troops get to go on the missions that are easiest, or where return is almost impossible. That way if your crappy soldiers have to die, at least they can do something useful in the process. Taking care of all of your troops, including the ones that suck, is of utmost importance for both morale and force power. |
*tips hat*
I think the ones who die on the indoctrination program aren't always the weakest ones - just the ones who refuse to serve a dictator
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So maybe killing those other 9 who weren't quite as good as you mightn't have been the best move?
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Repeating the same unsupported argument over and over doesn't help either.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
I'm not sure if this has been said or not, but don't forget, Palpatine pretended to be a reluctant leader as well, even though he had planned for it.
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No. In a monarchy government which passes power along bloodlines, you're going to get hooked up with your cousin or second cousin, not with your grandfather.|
Originally Posted by Psyte
Question about Tyrant and Dominatrix (assuming they have had sex) - aren't those kinds of hijinks common not only with inbred rednecks Jeff Foxworthy jokes about but also royalty of old? Random thought/wondering, not especialy meant to go anywhere (so run with it if you like).
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For one thing, if you had a child by your grandfather, your kid would probably be next in line for rulership instead of you.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Except Tyrant is immortal, so there's no expectation that anyone is going to inherit his throne.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
No. In a monarchy government which passes power along bloodlines, you're going to get hooked up with your cousin or second cousin, not with your grandfather.
For one thing, if you had a child by your grandfather, your kid would probably be next in line for rulership instead of you. |
(Though I do recall some History Channel Special about an Egyptian Minor Nobleman who they did believe married his daughter after his wife passed away ...)
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
Another possible thing I thought of, as part of the Powers Division indoctrination program, and based on the Roman theme in Praetoria would be some sort of gladiator fights - not public, of course, as that might spoil the public image of Tyrant
But at different stages of your training, you (as a "gladiator") would be put in some sort of arena to fight either a captured member of the Resistance ("criminal") or some of the Devouring Earth (wilde beasts) or fellow recruits on the indoctrination program (other gladiators) to test if you were good enough for the main tasks of the Praetorian Guard.
So, then, if he's not looking to waste resources, would it not stand to reason that his training is brutal because it's necessary? That is, he's not trying to kill off people with powers -- And why would he? By your arguments, he's already got a dedicated psychic network to reprogram them as needed. -- he's fighting battles intense enough that a nine-in-ten mortality rate is the only one that can adequately prepare soldiers to fight for him?
If that were true, it would seem to me that decreasing the mortality-in-training rate would simply weaken his army in the long run. So, I ask you, what's worse? A high percentage of a small group of soldiers dying in training, or a moderate percentage of civilians dying, and the rest living in hell because their potentially-Utopian society was razed.
Think long and hard about the math before you answer.