Brutes & Scrappers after Going Rogue?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-12-15 17:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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They are. But they aren't unfair to Defense.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I dunno, A, I'd say that autohit attacks are rather unfair to defense based powersets.
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The resistance cap can't be unfair to Resistance. It could be unfair to a set that uses it, like say Fiery Aura. Except there are alternatives to buffing the performance of FA other than ramming it up against the resistance caps, assuming it was anywhere near them. The devs could, say, increase the strength of the heal, which they did.
In the specific case of Power Surge, the resistance cap *does* seem to act in a way that isn't quite fair, in the sense that the proliferation rules tell the devs to port the power and assume that if the archetype modifiers make it work differently, that's intentional for that archetype. But I find it difficult to believe that Power Surge is intended to be about two and a half times as strong for Brutes as Scrappers, when that sort of capitation doesn't occur anywhere else. So in this one specific case, there is a problem with the res cap, which will probably have to be worked around in some way.
But to say that an Invuln can get to 90% mitigation with Invincibility, but only 75% mitigation with unstoppable is somehow unfair to Resistance is weird, because what matters is Invuln's strength, not where it gets it.** Resistance doesn't have feelings to hurt.
** The one exception would be if resistance was so weak it wasn't capable of simulating the gameplay effect it was intended to achieve. But there's no specific requirement for scrappers to "feel" 90% resistance. Even at 75% resistance the mechanic is delivering a genuine "resistive" feel. And contrary to every player that believes so, Invuln is not a resistance set. It has never, in its entire history from launch to now, been anything other than a balanced set between resistance and defense. And that is because both the resistance and the defense in the set (and the +health for that matter) are intended to simulate the same basic thing: damage attenuation. Resistance simulates attacks being reduced in effect. Defense simulates some attacks being reduced so low that they have no effect at all. That's why Invuln has both, relies on both, and is designed to have strong percentages of both.
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For the position they currently fill on actual redside teams, I don't think the 90% cap is out of order.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
(I think giving Brutes the 90% res cap was a mistake.)
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It's not blueside, where there is a clear division between Scrappers and Tankers and the roles they fill.
They also can't get near that cap on their own.
GoRo will be changing this dynamic, but I don't think even GoRo will make this seem like a big deal.
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That was not the design intent.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
For the position they currently fill on actual redside teams, I don't think the 90% cap is out of order.
It's not blueside, where there is a clear division between Scrappers and Tankers and the roles they fill. They also can't get near that cap on their own. GoRo will be changing this dynamic, but I don't think even GoRo will make this seem like a big deal. |
CoV archetypes were never meant to be direct analogs of CoH ones. They were meant to be completely different things that did similar things in totally different ways.
Some people looked at the CoV archetypes and said "ah, Brutes are Tankers, Stalkers are weak scrappers, Dominators are controllers, Corruptors are Blaster/Defender hybrids, and Masterminds are something new." That was totally wrong.
Masterminds were intended to be the archetype designed to capture aggro in a totally different way than Tankers: with pets functioning as big bags of health. Brutes, on the other hand, were intended to be anti-scrappers: they were scrappers that did better on teams than solo, by being the most buffable archetype red side.**
Brutes only needed to have higher buff caps than anything else red side overall. They did not specifically need to have the same defensive buff caps as tankers. The fact that Brutes are often played as pseudo tankers rather than buffable scrappers is evidence that the "holy trinity" is as much imposed on players by developers as it is self-imposed on players by themselves. In fact, you could argue that by making Brute defensive caps identical to tankers the devs shot themselves in the foot by making it seem like Brutes were meant to *be* tankers. If they had resistance caps of, say, 80%-85% (higher than scrappers, lower than tankers, and around Kheldians) it might have been more obvious that Brutes were not meant to be plug and play alternatives to tankers.
Of course, now that they have those caps, its probably too late to change them. That's now how Brutes are defined. But it was not originally intended to be.
** Stalkers were the melee-based alpha strike archetype: basically melee blasters. Dominators were sort of anti-controllers: control and offense, rather than control and buff. Corruptors were the only obvious ones: anti-defenders. But CoV shuffled everything up, so this is an oversimplification. Pets went to masterminds, control went to dominators, and "controllers" were vaporized in the conversion. Melee offensive support went to dominators, and alpha strike went to stalkers, and blasters disappeared. Only corruptors and defenders were spared the shuffle.
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Analogs...
I've always seen it not so much a matter of what AT red equals what AT blue, but more a matter of what jobs they are meant to perform in a team setting.
Aggro-management: Tanks, MMs, and Brutes for tough targets.
Single Target Elimination: Stalkers, Scrappers
Mob Elimination: Blasters, Brutes
Aggro-elimination: Controllers, Dominators
Debuff/Buff: Defenders, Corruptors
Jack of all, master of none: EATs
Brutes, other than against AV/GMs where they are the most capable of taking large hits, are pretty well designed to take down large amounts of weak mobs quickly. Fury means they want large mobs, and their Scrapper level base values mean they don't want too many hard hits to come in from too many sources. Blasters do the same in a different way, by being able to dish out enormous amounts of damage before the mob can even react.
Tanks are made to say "mess with me!" They can generally take hits of all sizes from all sources and keep on trucking. MMs can do the same, generally, but melt against big AoE attacks, and their pets can only sustain 1-2 big hits each. If they go down and the summon power is recharging, then the MM goes down. This is why Brutes have the ability to be buffed up to Tanker-level resists, so that they can take the big hits for the team for as long as necessary.
Scrappers and Stalkers do have the most in common, especially now, but they do it differently. Scrappers are made tough to run in and take down the Boss/EB/whatever is the biggest threat as quickly as possible while the Tank keeps the rest of the aggro on him/herself. Stalkers are by design supposed to sneak in and surprise enemies with a big old fist to the face, having enough defensive abilities to finish the job. They generally cannot stand toe-to-toe with a bigbad as long as a scrapper, because while they do have about equal values for def/res, they do not have the same level of HP.
Corruptors and Defenders do the same job. They are both force multipliers. Defenders make the team into steamrollers while adding some damage, while Corruptors add more damage and can speed the team up quite well, but generally not as much as Defenders.
Controllers and Dominators have the same job. Stop the incoming damage. Controllers do it by mezzing and reducing incoming damage by buffs/debuffs, while Doms mezz and kill. Death is the ultimate mezz, and damage is the best debuff.
VEATs and HEATs can dish out damage, take damage, buff allies, and debuff allies. If there is a job to be done and no one is available to do it, the EAT can fill in. They aren't as good at any one job as the other ATs are, but their ability to do them all makes them a valuable addition to any team.
I personally don't think any AT will replace any other AT. Players will decide which job they want to perform for a team, and then decide how they want to go about doing that job. Offensively or Defensively, generally speaking.
~WP
Just my opinion, feel free to disregard...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
1. There are no "resistance sets" that are unfairly penalized by lower resistance caps except for one: Electric Armor ported to Scrappers. The lower cap almost certainly alters the intended effect of Power surge. However, in all other cases where the cap comes into play, it seems to be doing so specifically *for* game balance reasons, not contrary to them.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
They also can't get near that cap on their own.
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Elec is certainly punished to a degree. Not only does it not reach 90% on energy passively, but it also doesn't reach 90% in tier 9 mode. Comparatively, a Brute not only gets 90% to energy while just hanging out, but can hit 90% vs all in tier 9 mode. Double-whammy there.
My Invuln Brute has 70% vs S/L (Tough). Any RES buff in the game will push her over what a Scrapper can do. Small orange, tarot, any +RES shield. Not only that, she can hit 90% vs all in Unstop. A Scrapper could only hit 75% vs all. And with a 70% to start off, tarot, oranges, and shields can only add 5% at most, while they have a further 20% to go on my Brute.
I have a WP Brute, again with Tough. When SoW is up, which is fairly frequent, she hits 83% to S/L. That's again past what a Scrapper can do.
Stone hits 71%. With Tough, can hit nearly 90%.
Even if we're talking Shield, Dark, or Fire. With Tough and Demonic, the Brute can push over 75% by themselves, attaining what a Scrapper cannot.
I do think the 90% was a mistake. This coming from someone who has three level 50 Brutes with three more past 40. In fact, Brutes in general seem to be a bit over the top in max stats. A while back I wanted to propose a standardization of RES caps and max HP caps, but the whole thing came across as a "nerf Brutes" because they were effectively the ONLY AT that needed either one of those stats lowered (most ATs in fact needed things raised).
While the 90% probably shouldn't be messed with, it would be nice to see Stalkers pushed to 80% and Scrappers pushed to 85%. Or maybe at the very least Scrappers at 80%.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Wouldn't Fire Armor fall into the same category as Electric Armor, as a Scrapper can't become 90% resistant to fire through his own means, like a Brute can?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Brutes, on the other hand, were intended to be anti-scrappers: they were scrappers that did better on teams than solo, by being the most buffable archetype red side.**
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Given that almost every damage skill for a Brute has a 400% taunt attribute, that secondaries are granted 400% taunt in Power Sink and Energy Drain, and that SR was ported to Brutes with an agro aura, it's pretty clear that they were intended to be more than anti-Scrappers. The amount of agro that a Brute draws, even if it was designed to feed Fury, is likely the reason Brutes are granted Tank caps. A Scrapper is just not as sticky as a Brute. In fact, I'd argue that the Brute might be a little too sticky relative to a Tank, and this is a bigger overlap than their damage encroaching on Scrappers.
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I understand that it might not have been the original design intent, that's not actually what I said.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That was not the design intent.
CoV archetypes were never meant to be direct analogs of CoH ones. They were meant to be completely different things that did similar things in totally different ways. |
I said:
"For the position they currently fill on actual redside teams..."
And the position they currently fill is alpha duty/aggro control or as JuliusSeizure put it 'stickyness'.
So it's not really important now whether that was the original intent, because that's the role they ended up filling, for multiple reasons.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The fact that Brutes are often played as pseudo tankers rather than buffable scrappers is evidence that the "holy trinity" is as much imposed on players by developers as it is self-imposed on players by themselves.
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I've been on teams where the MM was playing "Tankermind", and it worked.
But it was slow before fights, chaotic and hectic during them.
Not to mention that running around in a cave with multiple MMs make's me want to quit teams out of not being able to even move.
(note: I have nothing against masterminds, but I have a lot of hate for caves.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In fact, you could argue that by making Brute defensive caps identical to tankers the devs shot themselves in the foot by making it seem like Brutes were meant to *be* tankers. If they had resistance caps of, say, 80%-85% (higher than scrappers, lower than tankers, and around Kheldians) it might have been more obvious that Brutes were not meant to be plug and play alternatives to tankers.
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It works out to a full package of aggro duty. This doesn't make you a Tanker, this makes you capable of aggro duty.
The two are not one in the same.
Let's say Brutes did not have the taunt attribute, and the higher hit points, do you really think 90% resistance caps would have led the population to believe that Brutes are there for aggro control?
I wonder if the general playerbase, the ones that do not use mids or come to the forums, even know that Brutes have a 90% Resistance cap.
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It all depends on the strategy you plan to use Fyre and as for IOs and Accolades the point I was making is take a 50 tank and a 50 level Brute .. neither has any IOs just SOs and neither has any accolades adding end, hp , etc to boost their effectiveness... The Tanker has more HP and a better taunt. Of course if someone spent 6 months farming Purples enhancement and was buffed to almost GODLIKE level they are going to be more effective than that same exact character that is only running with SOs. |
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
I've done LGTF and ITF, and brute is never a second choice that i'll only look into if tankers arent there. When the brute can solo the 3 firsts missions alone, i much prefer to have him and his damage then the overkill protection of a tanker. So it's totally not true that everyone prefer tankers over brutes.
As for the "without IO enhnacement and Accolades boosts" that's pretty irrevelant because there is brutes and tankers with them. Picking a non-IOed tanker over an IOed brute because that brute would be less tough without them..... that's like picking a lvl 3 fire blaster over a lvl 50 elec, because if it wasn't for the level, elec would do less damage. =P |
There are two basic strategies I have seen used on the ITF... run headlong at Romulus, after clearing everything in fornt of him and just outdamge him. The other involves taunting the healing Nictus far enough away so it doesn't heal Rommi and beating him repeatedly until he devours all the Nictus to REZ. I have been on teams that made each strategy work fine and I never said a BRUTE couldn't taunt and be effective in that role... a TANK is just better at it and since he's taking a ton of damage while doing so the TANK wins out if available.
All I was doing was illustrating to the OP that despite his claim Scrappers and Tankers will NOT be replaced completely by Brutes once GR hits. Both have unique skill that will always be desirable to team leaders.
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That's your personnal choice not to use IOs, or get accolades. Just doing your arcs untill 50, you'll get enough merits to buy 1-2 good IOs, more if you do TFs along the way. And you'll easily have 150-ish mils, without farming, just from killing enemies, selling recipes and salvages by the time you reach 50. Maybe you don't have IOs at 50, but i start to get them at 30, without any farmage.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
It all depends on the strategy you plan to use Fyre and as for IOs and Accolades the point I was making is take a 50 tank and a 50 level Brute .. neither has any IOs just SOs and neither has any accolades adding end, hp , etc to boost their effectiveness... The Tanker has more HP and a better taunt. Of course if someone spent 6 months farming Purples enhancement and was buffed to almost GODLIKE level they are going to be more effective than that same exact character that is only running with SOs.
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For the accolades, some are pretty easy to get. Just do all the mayhem and you get one. That's something you should be doing anyway, or at most, missing 1-2.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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This is where I disagree.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
I have been on teams that made each strategy work fine and I never said a BRUTE couldn't taunt and be effective in that role... a TANK is just better at it and since he's taking a ton of damage while doing so the TANK wins out if available.
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My inherent complaint with Tankers, Defenders, and Stalkers is that they only do one thing to write home about. And in all those cases, other ATs do those things well enough that there's no need to specialize at the loss of other abilities.
I've done basically all the content in the game, including all the high-end task forces like ITF, LGTF, and LRSF. Not once have I failed any of those three TFs, and most of my runs were using Brutes over Tankers. With a competent enough team (2+ good support toons, good backing damage), I've never once experienced a Brute so incapable of tanking that we wished for a Tanker.
Tanking is the sort of thing that you can have too much of and it be a waste. If you have a Brute and he isn't dying, what more can a Tanker offer? Is he going to not die even better? Is he going to be so alive that he dies a negative amount of times? I know he's not going to aggro more guys because both ATs have the same aggro cap, and one well-placed Foot Stomp or taunt aura is all it takes to hold a group's attention. At that point it just comes down to experience and how well the driver controls aggro.
If you're at a point where both the Brute and the Tanker are not dying, the Brute is more of a credit to the team due to the fact that he can do damage. If you're not dying, being even harder to kill is a pointless bonus. I've never experienced content that a Brute can't tank, so I've never felt that I wanted to take a Tanker over a Brute. Ever.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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My favorite strategy for the ITF, is to just charge headlong into Romulus without clearing anything in front of him. |
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
It all depends on the strategy you plan to use Fyre and as for IOs and Accolades the point I was making is take a 50 tank and a 50 level Brute .. neither has any IOs just SOs and neither has any accolades adding end, hp , etc to boost their effectiveness... The Tanker has more HP and a better taunt. Of course if someone spent 6 months farming Purples enhancement and was buffed to almost GODLIKE level they are going to be more effective than that same exact character that is only running with SOs.
There are two basic strategies I have seen used on the ITF... run headlong at Romulus, after clearing everything in fornt of him and just outdamge him. The other involves taunting the healing Nictus far enough away so it doesn't heal Rommi and beating him repeatedly until he devours all the Nictus to REZ. I have been on teams that made each strategy work fine and I never said a BRUTE couldn't taunt and be effective in that role... a TANK is just better at it and since he's taking a ton of damage while doing so the TANK wins out if available. All I was doing was illustrating to the OP that despite his claim Scrappers and Tankers will NOT be replaced completely by Brutes once GR hits. Both have unique skill that will always be desirable to team leaders. |
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Given that almost every damage skill for a Brute has a 400% taunt attribute, that secondaries are granted 400% taunt in Power Sink and Energy Drain, and that SR was ported to Brutes with an agro aura, it's pretty clear that they were intended to be more than anti-Scrappers. The amount of agro that a Brute draws, even if it was designed to feed Fury, is likely the reason Brutes are granted Tank caps. A Scrapper is just not as sticky as a Brute. In fact, I'd argue that the Brute might be a little too sticky relative to a Tank, and this is a bigger overlap than their damage encroaching on Scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The hit points and 400% taunt attribute are also there as well.
It works out to a full package of aggro duty. This doesn't make you a Tanker, this makes you capable of aggro duty. The two are not one in the same. Let's say Brutes did not have the taunt attribute, and the higher hit points, do you really think 90% resistance caps would have led the population to believe that Brutes are there for aggro control? I wonder if the general playerbase, the ones that do not use mids or come to the forums, even know that Brutes have a 90% Resistance cap. |
A taunt's MAG determines whether a mob is taunted or not. Think of it like a hold, that when the enemy's MAG is overcome, they're taunted. The catch is, most mobs have no form of taunt protection, so higher a MAG really doesn't mean too much. (This is where 'real numbers' is getting 400%. It's taking "MAG 4", a "4" in a spreadsheet, to be "400%".)
The second attribute to taunts is their duration. This is where you really see a difference in effectiveness. Basically, the longer the taunt, the more weight it has on the AI. It applies more threat when placed on the target, and it amplifies incoming damage/debuffs/etc more on a factor of 1000*remaining duration. It just so happens that both Tankers and Brutes (and all ATs) have the same InherentTaunt modifier, as well as the same scale taunt on their attacks / Taunt powers. (This, btw, is another mistake in my opinion. A Brutes' taunt durations should be lower.)
Sorry for the tangent.
I've heard that Brute Taunt only applies the -range debuff on its target, while Tanker Taunt applies it to all 5 targets. That does make Tankers a bit better at clumping up mobs. (I use Taunt for the -range all the time.)
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I believe he is referring to "Threat" which is a character attribute related to how hate/aggro is computed. Most things have threat of 1.0. Scrappers have threat 3.0. Brutes and Tankers have threat 4.0.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just a heads up, that 400% taunt you see viewing the in game 'real numbers' is a bit nonsensical. No AT has a "X% taunt." That's the 'real numbers' system misinterpretting a field. There are only two taunt attributes I"m aware of, MAG and duration.
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However, I find it a bit contradictory to claim that most people don't know about the Brute 90% res cap, but then claim that the threat 4.0 is an indicator Brutes are aggro specialists. I dare anyone to prove a Brute *has* 4.0 threat without trusting the RN screens (I think even Stargazer would have extreme difficulty detecting that). The 90% res cap is easy for all but the most new players to spot: the floating red numbers keep going down. No one needed to be told in CoV beta that Brutes had a 90% resistance cap. I doubt *any* player in CoV beta both knew the Brute threat value *and* knew what it meant.
In CoV beta, the average perspective on Brutes evolved from "Brutes are Tankers, but they aren't very good at it" to "clearly Brutes are Scrappers, and its Masterminds that are the Tankers" which was closer to the actual dev intent. It was only post-launch, possibly in conjunction with the release of inventions and level 50 content, that the pendulum began to swing the other way to "Brutes are Tankers but you have to work a lot harder at it, which is ok because red side archetypes need less Tanking."
I think the "state of the art" in Brute/Mastermind** thinking, which is not typical, is "what with the Mastermind creating all that havoc, all my Brute needs to do is tank that one big baddie from wiping all the MMs pets and we're home free." Which is personally appealing to me because it *does* break the holy-trinity's hold on players, and shows the way to the future. YMMV.
** (Just an example: Brutes and Masterminds are not the only archetypes in the aggro equation. Dominators, in particular, are also designed to mitigate threat in a different obvious way)
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The reason I don't think this was the intent (at lease in Julius's case) because of this:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I believe he is referring to "Threat" which is a character attribute related to how hate/aggro is computed. Most things have threat of 1.0. Scrappers have threat 3.0. Brutes and Tankers have threat 4.0.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Given that almost every damage skill for a Brute has a 400% taunt attribute, that secondaries are granted 400% taunt in Power Sink and Energy Drain, and that SR was ported to Brutes with an agro aura, it's pretty clear that they were intended to be more than anti-Scrappers.
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No don't be sorry, I prefer that it gets clarified.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just a heads up, that 400% taunt you see viewing the in game 'real numbers' is a bit nonsensical. No AT has a "X% taunt." That's the 'real numbers' system misinterpretting a field. There are only two taunt attributes I"m aware of, MAG and duration.
A taunt's MAG determines whether a mob is taunted or not. Think of it like a hold, that when the enemy's MAG is overcome, they're taunted. The catch is, most mobs have no form of taunt protection, so higher a MAG really doesn't mean too much. (This is where 'real numbers' is getting 400%. It's taking "MAG 4", a "4" in a spreadsheet, to be "400%".) The second attribute to taunts is their duration. This is where you really see a difference in effectiveness. Basically, the longer the taunt, the more weight it has on the AI. It applies more threat when placed on the target, and it amplifies incoming damage/debuffs/etc more on a factor of 1000*remaining duration. It just so happens that both Tankers and Brutes (and all ATs) have the same InherentTaunt modifier, as well as the same scale taunt on their attacks / Taunt powers. (This, btw, is another mistake in my opinion. A Brutes' taunt durations should be lower.) Sorry for the tangent. |
I've got a good "rough" grasp of the overall game mechanics, but sometimes the smaller details like that I still need to brush up on.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
I've heard that Brute Taunt only applies the -range debuff on its target, while Tanker Taunt applies it to all 5 targets. That does make Tankers a bit better at clumping up mobs. (I use Taunt for the -range all the time.)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
However, I find it a bit contradictory to claim that most people don't know about the Brute 90% res cap, but then claim that the threat 4.0 is an indicator Brutes are aggro specialists. I dare anyone to prove a Brute *has* 4.0 threat without trusting the RN screens (I think even Stargazer would have extreme difficulty detecting that).
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I still think taunt is more readily apparent to the average player as in game Taunt magnitude is listed in every single power description Brutes have. You can't find the limits for things such as Resistance or HP listed anywhere in your power selections.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The 90% res cap is easy for all but the most new players to spot: the floating red numbers keep going down. No one needed to be told in CoV beta that Brutes had a 90% resistance cap. I doubt *any* player in CoV beta both knew the Brute threat value *and* knew what it meant.
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You can play for a very long time as a Brute and not actually have a clue what the various Corr or MM secondaries are actually doing for you. (I didn't know for a while myself, until I started digging into Paragonwiki and the like.
)You'll just notice that on a full team with a bunch of buffers that you're harder to kill.
On the other hand whether solo, on small teams or teams of 8 - it will be readily apparent that you are "sticky", that mobs are attracted to you for one reason or another.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In CoV beta, the average perspective on Brutes evolved from "Brutes are Tankers, but they aren't very good at it" to "clearly Brutes are Scrappers, and its Masterminds that are the Tankers" which was closer to the actual dev intent. It was only post-launch, possibly in conjunction with the release of inventions and level 50 content, that the pendulum began to swing the other way to "Brutes are Tankers but you have to work a lot harder at it, which is ok because red side archetypes need less Tanking."
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I think post IO sets and L50 content is the area where Brutes can truly shine in an aggro control role.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think the "state of the art" in Brute/Mastermind** thinking, which is not typical, is "what with the Mastermind creating all that havoc, all my Brute needs to do is tank that one big baddie from wiping all the MMs pets and we're home free." Which is personally appealing to me because it *does* break the holy-trinity's hold on players, and shows the way to the future. YMMV.
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This is why I play redside heavily, even with the lack of players and the wacky, severely lacking market.
The ATs are designed exceptionally well, are extremely fun to play in groups and solo - and break the mold set by both CoH and most MMOs in general.
I really hope it is the way to the future as you say, for CoX and beyond.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
** (Just an example: Brutes and Masterminds are not the only archetypes in the aggro equation. Dominators, in particular, are also designed to mitigate threat in a different obvious way)
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It's interesting to me because I think we've seen an evolution in other games as well along these lines - 4th ed D&D in particular seems to have borrowed and incorporated MMO concepts like these.
It's also part of the fun of a good redside team, there's less set up and the team is usually a fraction of a second behind whoever is the pointman.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
The reason I don't think this was the intent (at lease in Julius's case) because of this:
. He is talking specifically about the taunt measurement in specific powers, rather than their global threat modifier. (Deus may have been thinking more along your lines of thought. However, I still think he is talking about the X% taunt in powers, if nothing else because I've never heard of the threat mod described in that way.) |
I'm glad you raised this because I'm not entirely familiar with how threat works and the language you guys employ to describe it, but here's what I meant:
I call it a 400% Taunt if only because it's labeled such in real numbers. What I'm specifically talking about is the mag 4 taunt with 13.5 seconds of Duration. Brutes have this attribute on almost every skill that affects an enemy, meaning that PBAoEs, damage auras, Power Sink, and taunt auras are producing lots of agro for the Brute-- especially when they are doing Scrapper levels of damage while having similar taunt mods as a Tank.
Gauntlet makes a big difference here, and clearly puts Tanks in the lead for drawing agro and generating threat. And I definitely agree that Tanks have a huge advantage in the 5 taget -range of their Taunt skill; it is insanely effective at clumping.
I don't know exactly how threat works, but my experience is that having the exact same mag 4 taunt with 13.5 seconds of duration WHILE doing Scrapper levels of damage produces one of the stickiest ATs in the game, one that can sometimes (rarely) peel agro off a Tank when running at full Fury with outside +damage.
The gist of my post is that Brutes are better at generating threat and holding agro than MMs and Scrappers, and I suppose this is why they granted them Tank level resistance caps. In a team setting, the developers may have thought that the Brute would get stomped with the amount of threat they can produce and granted them Tank level caps because of this.
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They often do actually.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
In a team setting, the developers may have thought that the Brute would get stomped with the amount of threat they can produce and granted them Tank level caps because of this.
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Many Brutes not heavily IOd or without solid support from other teammates, and in some cases both, are easily overwhelmed by the amount of threat they generate.
This is often the case for Brutes while leveling, and it's the case for Brutes at L50.
I've gotten many tells in groups from fellow Brutes asking how my WP manages to handle things that eat their WP brute alive. I explain that's really just a matter of a focused build and a lot of IO investment.
I run a lot of LGTF & ITF with roughly the same group of players. Sometimes we have tanks, sometimes brutes, sometimes both.
Sometimes the brutes can peel aggro off the tankers, but sometimes they can't.
No one ever claims we should just get rid of the tankers for brutes, or vice versa. Cooperation and communication go along way to allowing each player and the team as a whole to take full advantage of the particular strengths of each AT.
I hope we'll see that on a larger scale when GoRo is launched.
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As if Defenders weren't already semi-redundant since Controllers get most of their primaries as well. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Unfortunately, aside from Empathy and FF, defenders will largely be going the way of the dodo, since you can play every other set as a corruptor.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Dominators and Controllers will become almost interchangeable, depending on whether the team wants buffs or damage as a side dish to their control.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I have no guesses about stalkers, blasters, or tanks.
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Blasters will have some competition with Corruptors, who don't do as much straight-up damage but bring more buff/debuffage, healing, and can even get their own mezz protection.
Tankers are pretty much screwed. All a Brute has to do is take Taunt and they're the same thing as they have the same def/res caps but much higher damage capabilities. The Brute can actually kill all the aggro piling on him rather than standing around looking pretty.
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My Elec/Dark Stalker, made ages before the Electrical sets were ported to Tanks and Scrappers, played just like a Scrapper with stealth right from out of the gate. The difference is that she has the massive damage of Assassin's Shock when it's needed and the criticals can be a lot more predictable when coming from Hide than the random-as-hell crits that Scrappers get.|
Originally Posted by Ideon
Stalkers have been improved not so long ago to crit more often when in large teams... providing they stay and fight rather than run and wait for hide. :3
I generally see Stalkers as Scrappers with stealth, since their damage output, combined with assassin strike and placate for almost guaranteed crit should be fairly similiar to a scrapper. They're just probably not as durable due to lower HP values and altered secondaries. One of these days, I'll need to try out a combined Scrapper/Brute/Stalker LGTF... |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Huh. I've done dozens of villain-only LGTFs and ITFs, and always done just fine with Brutes. And of course the hardest task in the game, the LRSF, is always done without Tankers.
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Tankers are among the last AT I look for when filling out a team, and unlike with VEATs they're not last just because of attitude issues with the people who typically play them.
One of the biggest differences between the two is with damage buffs from build up and IO sets.
Now lets say hypathetically that a scrapper did 300 damage with its attack, and a brute did 100. With full fury they would both be doing equal damage.
Now if you add 20% damage buff from IO's the scrapper would be doing 360 damage but the brute would only be doing 320. add in 80% damage buff from buildup and the scrapper would be doing 600 damage whilst the brute was doing only 400 damage.
see, there is quite a big difference when you look at it like that, and i know the mechanics are a lot more complex but it's that principle that makes the scrapper like a machine gun, whilst the brute is a semi-automatic rifle; the scrapper does more damage but its more likely to jam than the semi-automatic.
And this damage thingy is why i really really really really wanna see Super Strength scrappers in the next proliferation =D
Ps: i havn't played a brute to 50 before, but scrappers are beasts at 50. i recon there will still be scrappers and brutes running arround, although new players will be more likely to play brutes becasue of higher percieved damage with the visual damage boost from fury.
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You should play a brute to 50, toss in some IOs and compare him to your scrapper. You might view things differently then.
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Originally Posted by NeonPower
One of the biggest differences between the two is with damage buffs from build up and IO sets.
Now lets say hypathetically that a scrapper did 300 damage with its attack, and a brute did 100. With full fury they would both be doing equal damage. Now if you add 20% damage buff from IO's the scrapper would be doing 360 damage but the brute would only be doing 320. add in 80% damage buff from buildup and the scrapper would be doing 600 damage whilst the brute was doing only 400 damage. see, there is quite a big difference when you look at it like that, and i know the mechanics are a lot more complex but it's that principle that makes the scrapper like a machine gun, whilst the brute is a semi-automatic rifle; the scrapper does more damage but its more likely to jam than the semi-automatic. And this damage thingy is why i really really really really wanna see Super Strength scrappers in the next proliferation =D Ps: i havn't played a brute to 50 before, but scrappers are beasts at 50. i recon there will still be scrappers and brutes running arround, although new players will be more likely to play brutes becasue of higher percieved damage with the visual damage boost from fury. |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Maybe your tanks are, but mine aren't. I may not do the same damage as brutes, but I'm sure as hell a lot more survivable than they ever will be.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Tankers are pretty much screwed.
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| All a Brute has to do is take Taunt and they're the same thing as they have the same def/res caps but much higher damage capabilities. |
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| The Brute can actually kill all the aggro piling on him rather than standing around looking pretty. |
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Is this after your Tanker says "brb this will take three times as long as a Brute" ?|
Originally Posted by Atheism
Maybe your tanks are, but mine aren't. I may not do the same damage as brutes, but I'm sure as hell a lot more survivable than they ever will be.
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| Is this after the brute says "brb hitting hosp"? |
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| Your tanks suck, mine don't. Perhaps you should try slotting yours for damage, like I do. |
Hey, this does work. v
vOh and you're wrong on one thing. A Brute can match a Tanker in survival with buffs. But a Tanker can NEVER, EVER, under any circumstances, match the damage output of a Brute.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I dunno, A, I'd say that autohit attacks are rather unfair to defense based powersets.
Be well, people of CoH.