Brutes & Scrappers after Going Rogue?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-12-15 17:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
At any rate, there have been defensive set changes - for example, WP losing RttC in favor of Reconstruction.
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I actually wish at times that my scrapper had Reconstruction instead of RTTC.
If I didn't hate Dual Blades so much on Stalkers, I'd have a DB/WP Stalker of her waiting to go rogue now.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Excuse the thread tangent, but you're the first person I've ever heard of say that. May I ask why you wish Scrappers had Recon instead of RttC?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I actually wish at times that my scrapper had Reconstruction instead of RTTC.
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The break-even point between fully slotted reconstruction and fully slotted RTTC, setting aside the -tohit debuff, is about four foes in range of RTTC. Fully slotted reconstruction returns about 50% health in 30 seconds, which is about the equivalent of the health recovery increase of a +400% regeneration buff. RTTC gets to +200% with four foes unslotted, and about +400% slotted.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Excuse the thread tangent, but you're the first person I've ever heard of say that. May I ask why you wish Scrappers had Recon instead of RttC?
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Not everyone plays a scrapper in such a way that they average four foes surrounding them averaged across their entire time in combat. In fact, that's not easy to do for any player, especially when running conventional mission content. Four sounds like a small number, except to average four you have to start off fights with a lot more (perhaps double that or more), just to average out the decrease you'll tend to see due to actually defeating targets, plus moving from spawn to spawn.
RTTC has a better maximum possible performance for experienced players, but I wouldn't be surprised if Recon had similar or better average performance for the average player.
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Did you just call yourself an average player?
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Me? I'd rather have RTTC on scrappers. I don't mind Recon on stalkers, though.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Did you just call yourself an average player?
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You made a little oversight in your calculation - you assumed that Reconstruction is a 50% heal. Reconstruction is only a 50% heal versus base hp. WP sports HPT, which is a +30% maxhp buff. Since Reconstruction doesn't scale up as maxhp rises and regen does, Reconstruction's average regen drops from ~400% to ~308%. That only requires 2.3 mobs in range to break even.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The break-even point between fully slotted reconstruction and fully slotted RTTC, setting aside the -tohit debuff, is about four foes in range of RTTC. Fully slotted reconstruction returns about 50% health in 30 seconds, which is about the equivalent of the health recovery increase of a +400% regeneration buff. RTTC gets to +200% with four foes unslotted, and about +400% slotted.
Not everyone plays a scrapper in such a way that they average four foes surrounding them averaged across their entire time in combat. In fact, that's not easy to do for any player, especially when running conventional mission content. Four sounds like a small number, except to average four you have to start off fights with a lot more (perhaps double that or more), just to average out the decrease you'll tend to see due to actually defeating targets, plus moving from spawn to spawn. RTTC has a better maximum possible performance for experienced players, but I wouldn't be surprised if Recon had similar or better average performance for the average player. |
As quite a few people will know in the EU, I have a Claws regen scrapper and an EM/DA brute, and they were originally meant to be each others counterparts - Brute created when Villains went live - so no proliferation back then.
I will always default to my scrapper as my best character. As having played both to 50, I know who would win in a duel.
Although, I have created a Claws/WP brute so will keep my eye on future developments. 
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I think it also assumes that WP would even need to worry about its survival below 4 enemies in range. If I'm soloing on +2/x1 and fighting mostly minions with some liutenants and the occasional boss, but never fighting more than 3 foes at a time, I don't have any issues with survival using RttC. And my survival rate against a single +3 boss is enough that I don't need to wish it was higher. Reconstruction might show higher results with lower amounts of enemies, but I also don't think it's necessary.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
You made a little oversight in your calculation - you assumed that Reconstruction is a 50% heal. Reconstruction is only a 50% heal versus base hp. WP sports HPT, which is a +30% maxhp buff. Since Reconstruction doesn't scale up as maxhp rises and regen does, Reconstruction's average regen drops from ~400% to ~308%. That only requires 2.3 mobs in range to break even.
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Of course, I imagine it'd be different on AVs and whatnot, but for most content it's never been an issue for me.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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That's true: the +health on HPT does increase regen (or reduce the heal). When I did a more detailed calculation in I11 beta that factored in the amount of time it took to move from spawn to spawn, plus the time to move the targets within the radius of RTTC, I ended up with needed to be *fighting* an average of 4 critters, or engaging spawns of about 8-9 critters in size with rapid movement between groups. The "4" stuck in my head so I forgot to account for HPT this time.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
You made a little oversight in your calculation - you assumed that Reconstruction is a 50% heal. Reconstruction is only a 50% heal versus base hp. WP sports HPT, which is a +30% maxhp buff. Since Reconstruction doesn't scale up as maxhp rises and regen does, Reconstruction's average regen drops from ~400% to ~308%. That only requires 2.3 mobs in range to break even.
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Its worth noting that when I tried to measure the average number of foes in RTTC during I11 beta, unless I herded them I measured an average of less than three foes in melee range, averaged from the moment combat started to the moment the last foe in the mission was defeated (without attempting to search beyond obviously visible foes), in even difficulty missions (2x in todays settings), at my maximum speed. I could only get higher density averages by deliberately herding, using nothing but AoEs (which improves the average per second density significantly), or running missions with two or more melee players.
Just for completeness sake, I also ignored the fact that a player might prefer Recon over RTTC because they have or build for a lot of Recharge. While its not kosher to compare RTTC to Recon in highly buffed recharge situations (Hasten, invention bonuses, etc) from a balance perspective, its fair game to consider those when it comes to player preferences. Someone with slotted Hasten would gain about 0.43 average speed and recon would increase to the normalized equivalent of about 3.2 foes.
Just for giggles, you'd need a total applied recharge of 4.55 to Recon for Recon to equal slotted RTTC saturated with 10 foes. That's 1.95 slotting plus +2.6 global recharge (+260%). That's higher than the net global recharge for perma-hasten (+180%: +110% global recharge and +70% for hasten). With "just" perma hasten, the break even point (factoring in HPT) would be about 7.5 foes.
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Its a very safe assumption that the majority of CoX players do worry about survival in situations most forum posters dismiss. I think the situation with blasters was so radically divergent that its safe to assume that the average player is nowhere remotely near the level of capability typically assumed to exist by the average forum poster.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I think it also assumes that WP would even need to worry about its survival below 4 enemies in range.
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The game is easy for many of us, but its easy for the average person probably in the same sense cracking Positron's unbreakable cipher was a straight forward exercise.
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It's possible. I don't remember what it was like to be a newbie to the game, other than vaguely recalling taking Maneuvers on a Scrapper at level 6. And I don't remember what my gaming experience was before the point where I started being serious about the game and doing things like making builds in external character builders. And that was all long before WP.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its a very safe assumption that the majority of CoX players do worry about survival in situations most forum posters dismiss. I think the situation with blasters was so radically divergent that its safe to assume that the average player is nowhere remotely near the level of capability typically assumed to exist by the average forum poster.
The game is easy for many of us, but its easy for the average person probably in the same sense cracking Positron's unbreakable cipher was a straight forward exercise. |
These days, I use level 25 standard IOs, which are weaker than regular SOs. But even that means I'm using the right powers and they're slotted the right way. I also probably have some sort of optimized attack flow, and I know for certain I use inspirations more fluidly and intelligently than people starting out (in fact I find it annoying that most people in PUGs don't use inspirations at all, until someone dies).
So theoretically just because my 25 SIO WP toon isn't having issues with 3 +2 enemies doesn't mean that the average player doesn't. Although you know what they say happens when you assume. It makes an *** out of someone named Ume.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm *never* going to forget standing at the train, wondering why it wasn't letting me run onto the train when the doors opened. Possibly until the day I die.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't remember what it was like to be a newbie to the game
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All I remember about my first toon was that she was Broadsword. I don't remember what her secondary was. But I had Maneuvers. I recall she was named Maulotov, and had red hair and camo pants.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm *never* going to forget standing at the train, wondering why it wasn't letting me run onto the train when the doors opened. Possibly until the day I die.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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THEN SAY THAT!| So yes, EVERY single Stalker set has reduced survival to some degree over even Scrappers. |
Reread the quoted post of yours. You said Stalkers lose out on HP AND defense. When, in fact, they usually *gain* defense over Scrappers thanks to Hide.
If you're going to make precise posts about the numbers on Stalkers then *be* accurate.
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| No it isn't. Scrapper base damage is 1.125 and Stalker is 1.00. |
A Stalker's damage output is dependent on a the same factor as a Scrapper: It's set by set. Some deal better AoE dmg than others and some have more utility, etc. For example: You don't make a Dark Melee scrapper and complain about the AoE dmg you deal. And you don't make a Martial Art's Stalker and complain that it can't do AoE dmg.
Why? Because that's how the sets are *designed*. It's like complaining Blasters are too squishy.
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| With the addition of hide, placate, and AS, the Stalker can get some burst damage in, but those are all time-consuming activities |
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| There are two sets with ZERO AoE powers, one being MA which previously had a rather good AoE damage. Then the remaining sets outside of Elec and Spines are left with only cones, no PBAoEs. Sets like Dark Melee, which you mentioned, had poor AoE before, but between the two long-recharge PBAoEs it was at least "poor to okay," while with the loss of those it's mostly just "almost nonexistant" having to rely on SM exclusively. |
-Electric Melee has a PBAoE, Spines has a PBAoE. That *has* to count against the argument that Stalker sets are left with "no PBAoEs".
As for Dark melee, it's more the choice of "Do you want to have good ST dmg but crap AoE?" or "Do you want to have GREAT ST dmg and NO AoE?". I can see the other side of the argument but don't knock Stalker DM till you try it. It's a BEAST! Far more powerful feeling in the hands of a stalker than I could manage it with a scrapper for reasons as follow:
-It's fast! Fast attacks = fast crits and stalkers are the masters of crits.
-Controlled Crit Midnight Grasp. Easily drops a LT.
-Build up. Soul Drain is great...if you have a good number of foes around but BU is better if you're bursting stuff NOW.
-It loses nothing (of great worth)! Dark Consumption is great and all but I can figure out a more efficient way to maintain my blue bar.
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DM does have weak AoE on a Scrapper. But note that it's EVEN WEAKER on a Stalker yet STRONGER ST. EM has really weak AoE. But it has ZERO AoE on a Stalker yet Stronger ST. |
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| Unfortunately, Katana, Broadsword, Claws, Martial Arts, and Dual Blades all have pretty good AoE. But they don't on Stalkers. Instead of having a couple ST-oriented sets (DM, EM), Stalkers turn EVERY set into an ST-oriented set, and then your only option for AoE is Elec. |
Ill be rolling brutes...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I don't think Defenders have anything to worry about from Corruptors. There are similarities between the archetypes, sure, and Corruptors do get buffs. However, the buffs Corruptors get are more or less the same as what's available to a Controller.
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And there's plenty of folks who already prefer having Controllers on their teams than Defenders. After all, with pets, Containment, and epic aoe's, the Controller will quite likely bring more damage, and the control effects are dramatically potent at mitigating damage in ways that Defender secondaries don't usually (ever) match.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I don't think Defenders have anything to worry about from Corruptors. There are similarities between the archetypes, sure, and Corruptors do get buffs. However, the buffs Corruptors get are more or less the same as what's available to a Controller.
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I don't think any AT is doomed. I do think a few will have their shortcomings made dramatically clear when they have to compete directly with what are currently opposite faction AT's for every team, and not just for the relatively few co-op zone teams. But even the worst, least viable character will have its fans, and if we see fewer Defenders, we will still see some of them. And maybe we'll have fewer Lord of Winter fights called off because there were no debuffers, only Tankers, Scrappers, and Blasters.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Well, that's simple really.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Excuse the thread tangent, but you're the first person I've ever heard of say that. May I ask why you wish Scrappers had Recon instead of RttC?
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I like to occaissionally go into PvP zones/arena. WP is my favorite set of all defense sets. Recon would be of more use to me in PvP, than RTTC (lack of foes in melee range...the fact that it gets detoggled).
If it meant having to use Recon in PvE, I could manage just fine.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I will put an end to this. <hopefully>
:tanks will still be meatshields
:brutes will sub tank and do good dmg
:scrappers will be great dmgers
:stalkers will be great quick killers
:blasters will still be offinsive masters
:corruptrs will be for debuff/buff with good dmg
:defenders will still be the best debuff/buffers
:dominators will do controlled dmg
:controllers will be control debuff/buffer
:Masterminds will still be for those who solo alot but on team will be a little of each other archtype (depending on pets but MM wil be debuffer/buffer but most goes to pets cause thats like puting toggle buffs on a tank/scrapper/brute/stalker if there not on usaully you dont last longer)
So really each archtype is diferent so there is alwas a use for each one like brutes are midway tank scrappers or corrs being more dmging then def but less debuff/buff power
So the only thing will change is those making arch types something there not like stalkers trying to be srappers.
------------------------------------------------------------ Stealth is your ally -------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------- Trust no one ------------------------------------------------------------------
Most think
tanks = masterminds or >brutes< (which was not really the first plan)
srappers = brutes or >stalkers< (same as above)
blasters = stalkers or >dominators/corruptors< (same as above)
defenders = corrupters
controllers = dominators
but if you really look at them there not really = to each other there is somthing different in each one that no one other archtype has which will make Going Rogue the best thing and adding perks too having colorfull teams
------------------------------------------------------------ Stealth is your ally -------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------- Trust no one ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Ahah! That makes a lot of sense. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, that's simple really.
I like to occaissionally go into PvP zones/arena. WP is my favorite set of all defense sets. Recon would be of more use to me in PvP, than RTTC (lack of foes in melee range...the fact that it gets detoggled). If it meant having to use Recon in PvE, I could manage just fine. |
I personally much prefer RttC (since I do more PvEing than PvP), but your reasoning makes sense. Curiosity sated, thanks!
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We're not done arguing yet!
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Originally Posted by Macro_Ninja
I will put an end to this. <hopefully>
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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
We're not done arguing yet!
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Yes, we are! (just to keep it going)!
You're joking right? Please say you are joking. Brutes will never take the place of a "good" tanker ask anyone that has done the LGTF or ITF and a BRUTE is a secopndary choice is they can't find a Tank. Tanker just have a lot better taunt and with the best HP in game, without IO enhnacement and Accolades boosts, Tanks will always have a place in the game
As for Scrappers I am not one to hit the Arena and prove ANYTHING but I'd say a Scrapper could hold his own again most Brutes and I have and do play Brutes.
I have nothing against them but basically what they did was take one part scrapper and one part tank and put together something a LITTLE different when they designed them. Are they affective? Sure But will they ever replace either Scrappers or Tankers ... No way. I have a Scrapper, level 50 now, that soloed every AV in the Marie Arc to gain Portal Jockey... Does that sound wimpy to you?
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