Brutes & Scrappers after Going Rogue?
I generally see Stalkers as Scrappers with stealth, since their damage output, combined with assassin strike and placate for almost guaranteed crit should be fairly similiar to a scrapper. They're just probably not as durable due to lower HP values and altered secondaries.
One of these days, I'll need to try out a combined Scrapper/Brute/Stalker LGTF...
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Disagree. You already have mixed teaming situations already (ITF, Lady Grey, Cim, RWZ) and I have never ever heard of a team turn down a defender just so they can take a corruptor or controller instead. Also, certain flavors of defenders (Cold Domination, Traps, TA) completely outclass their corruptor/controller counterparts.
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I wasn't trying to say they'd disappear completely, but we will probably see fewer new ones being rolled. The lure of being able to do much the same thing and have more damage with it will be strong.
"Going the way of the dodo" is just a turn of phrase I use occasionally, I didn't intend it to mean there will never be defenders again.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Interesting. For me, scrapperlock was prep-work for properly building brutes.
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I've played scrappers, I've got 8, 4 of those are 50. I've played Brutes, I've got 4, one of those is 50, and to me the Brutes were always just short of mind numbing to play.
And while I love teaming with a good Tanker or Brute who can manage aggro, I rarely end up with one in my teams, so by default I tend to be the aggro manager.
I generally see Stalkers as Scrappers with stealth, since their damage output, combined with assassin strike and placate for almost guaranteed crit should be fairly similiar to a scrapper. They're just probably not as durable due to lower HP values and altered secondaries.
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In a hypothetical situation where said stalker has always X (4? 5? can't remember) teammates within their crit range, yes.
Needless to say, I'd sooner win the lottery than run into such a team ingame ; and seeing as I've never even bought a lottery ticket nor do I intend to ever do it, I mean that as an extremely unlikely scenario. YMMV, as always.
As far as Scrapper/Stalker popularity goes, they simply fill different roles: while the Scrapper is purely damage focussed, the Stalker has the benefits of a repeatable, decently reliable (it doesn't hit everyone, but is up often and not many enemies can counter Fear) mass control alongside their on demand crits, as well as their team scaling crit percentage (which can easily outpace a Scrapper's crit rate); the trade-off being the lesser survivability if something goes wrong.
As for Brute/Tank, Brutes do just fine in the role assuming a) they get some buffs generally in the form of defence to softcap, and b) the team (yes, team, not just the Brute) controls the aggro such that the buffers don't die. When the refuse hits the rotating blades, a Tanker will always be a better choice for getting the situation back under control. It just happens to be that, assuming control is maintained, the Brute can also put out strong amounts of damage.
And as for Defender/Corruptor, I pretty much think that this is a moot point, as I've always built Controllers and Masterminds as my buffers instead, because I prefer those playstyles. I'm actually more curious as to whether the VEAT and Mastermind population coming blueside will be in large enough numbers that it'll affect the number of Controllers and Defenders.
Still, just as there's a solid population who prefer Tankers above all other melee, there's a contingent of players who simply love Defender playstyle, and will not abandon their chosen AT.
Scrapper Lock is stage one of Fury-- attack relentlessly from the top of the pyramid to the bottom of enemy rankings.
Fury stage two also involves agro management akin to a Tank. |
Scrapperlock is when you suddenly realize your group is dead, and you didn't realize because you were busy killing everything around you.
Scrapperlock is when the silly team is planning and talking about what to do, while you're three rooms ahead unaware that you don't have a team behind you.
Scrapperlock is a state. If you're thinking about what you're doing, you're not in Scrapperlock. This is why folks who compare it to maintaining Fury are dead wrong and I doubt they've ever really experienced Scrapperlock. Scrapperlock is actually scary when you come out of it sometimes. I've literally been standing over a lot of dead mobs and suddenly realized I have no idea how the last 3-5 mins. went down. I've come out of Scrapperlock and looked over at the chat bar to messages of the team telling me to run.
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Brutes can be in Scrapperlock, but worrying about Fury is an impediment to achieving Scrapperlock. I love both ATs and I am sure neither has much to worry about. They play very differently. My current favorite Scrapper my Fire/Shield is frightening. The equivalent Brute would not be as good. However, my DM/EA Brute is a monster in another way. I won't be giving up either AT and I doubt I'll be the only one.
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Main differences between the two:
* Brutes can be buffed to higher levels of survival; usually only a concern on teams
* Brutes can gather and maintain aggro (can be good or bad depending on your outlook)
* Scrappers don't have to maintain Fury to do damage (multiple Brutes don't stack well)
* Scrappers don't generally pull aggro like a Brute (lower survival usually not an issue as a result)
So in a nutshell:
* Brutes can do more damage and be more survivable, but only with lots of buffs
* Brutes have to compete with eachother, Tanks, and mezzers to maintain fury and do damage
* You can only have 1-2 Brutes on a team before Fury is an issue, but you can have as many Scrappers as you want
* Scrappers don't have to compete with anyone to deal damage in full
Brutes and Scrappers fill different roles for me when I'm recruiting for a team. Brutes fall under tank/damage, while Scrappers are just damage. The two can coexist without interfering with eachother. Bonus damage is never wasted on a team, so there's no reason not to add a Scrapper into a damage slot. When I form a team, I want some of each of these categories:
Tanking:
Brute
Tanker
Support:
Controller
Corruptor
Mastermind
Defender
Damage:
Blaster
Dominator
Scrapper
Stalker
To me, comparing Brutes to Scrappers is like comparing Tankers to Blasters. There's no reason one will replace the other because they fill different roles.
And as I said before, I doubt any AT will disappear. But I do think current trends will continue. Tanks, Defenders, and Stalkers will still be unpopular ATs regardless of which side we're talking about.
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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It would seem clear to me that there are enough varying opinions that no AT will vanish. Some might take some hits, but I doubt they will be big as ATs are already of differing popularity.
As for myself, I used the free server switch to free up a slot for a stalker to replace one of my scrappers since I think the stalker AT suits the idea of the guy more. Anyway, I've just never loved scrappers all that much and will be happy to have the brute or stalker option blueside with which to replace them.
Too many alts to list.
I find Brutes to be better than scrappers at replacing the Tank AT, if needed, and providing damage against tougher enemies like AVs. Fighting an AV will allow a Brute to easily obtain 85-90% Fury.
Corruptors take over? Nah. Count me in as one who's DYING to get my hands on Defender Villains.
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I am quite curious what it would be like to play some redside content on a character for which hit points and survivability are primary, and with a better threat modifier than a Brute gets.
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And as I said before, I doubt any AT will disappear. But I do think current trends will continue. Tanks, Defenders, and Stalkers will still be unpopular ATs regardless of which side we're talking about.
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I have got 5 Tanks, 4 Stalkers and 5 Defenders and I REALLY like these ATs.
It all depends on your playstyle.
To topic:
AS Dispari also mentioned, I also would say Tank equals Brute in the Role. Its a "Tanking Class" for the team and with the right buffs it does not matter whether a Tank or Brute is the "Tank" for an ITF or LGTF. Especially if you mention defense based toons.
If a shield tank is softcapped and a shield brute also, then there is no reason when u have a cold with frostwork pushing booth up to max HP to say well the brute is better anyway or yeah the tank is better anyway for tanking.
And then coming to brute/scrapper: Scrappers will never exchange brutes and vice versa. And tanks will not exchange brutes or vice versa cause every AT has it´s benefit to exist.
Im intrigued at how the final fight of the Barracuda SF will go.
Another 6 ATs to figure out gadgets for, even if they repeat the existing ones.
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Im intrigued at how the final fight of the Barracuda SF will go.
Another 6 ATs to figure out gadgets for, even if they repeat the existing ones. |
Tankers -> Brutes
Scrappers -> Stalkers
Defenders -> Corruptors
Blasters -> Dominators
Controllers -> Masterminds
Those last two could arguably be sweapped since Doms and Controllers both mez. But I think Doms are more suited to a damage-dealing squishy toon than a team-supporting mez/buff toon. With their high base damage they're basically the Blasters of redside now. I totally play my Plant/Earth like a Blapper. And both Controllers and Masterminds are buff-oriented with pets.
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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The stalker gadget of super stealth certainly doesn't fit a scrapper, and the dom one of a super AOE hold is much more suited to a controller than a blaster.
The Defender could get the corruptor mass kill of the held ambushers, but thats really more a blaster move.
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My personal opinion, as always, is Fury is training wheels for Scrapperlock.
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This then progresses to furylock, sometimes called SMASH.
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I always thought the parallels were pretty straightforward. Whether it's that or epics.
Tankers -> Brutes Scrappers -> Stalkers Defenders -> Corruptors Blasters -> Dominators Controllers -> Masterminds |
Personally speaking, I expect the game designers tried to avoid too much direct congruence between blueside and redside ATs. I myself would have tried to achieve something different, an alternate paradigm for playing the game, instead of just flavoring the same roles slightly differently. I think the Devs hoped they were doing exactly that -- whether or not they succeeded is an exercise left to the reader (not because I'm being snarky, but because I admit I don't consider myself an expert on redside play).
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I always thought the parallels were pretty straightforward. Whether it's that or epics.
Tankers -> Brutes Scrappers -> Stalkers Defenders -> Corruptors Blasters -> Dominators Controllers -> Masterminds Those last two could arguably be sweapped since Doms and Controllers both mez. But I think Doms are more suited to a damage-dealing squishy toon than a team-supporting mez/buff toon. With their high base damage they're basically the Blasters of redside now. I totally play my Plant/Earth like a Blapper. And both Controllers and Masterminds are buff-oriented with pets. |
Tankers -> Brutes
Scrappers -> Stalkers
Defenders -> Masterminds (buffs, debuffs, and heals)
Blasters -> Corruptors (ranged attacks)
Controllers -> Dominators (holds and secondary damage, non-controllable pets)
But as always, YMMV...
Tankers -> Brutes
Scrappers -> Stalkers Defenders -> Masterminds (buffs, debuffs, and heals) Blasters -> Corruptors (ranged attacks) Controllers -> Dominators (holds and secondary damage, non-controllable pets) |
Defenders -> Masterminds only share one attribute, which is buff/debuff. Otherwise, Defenders are support/damage and MMs are pets/support. Corruptors are more like backward Defenders. They're damage/support. MMs do technically get a couple attacks, but most don't take them. Masterminds can attack and debuff through pets, but the emphasis there is controlling the pets.
Blasters -> Corruptors also only have one thing in common, which is that they do damage from range. Outside of that, they have totally different roles. Blasters are pure damage dealers, while Corruptors are basically the main support class of redside. Blasters I feel are closer to Doms, since Doms have the highest base damage, and have both range and melee attacks, with utility powers inbetween.
Controllers -> Doms, again, only have one thing in common. Mez. Doms are lockdown/damage, while Controllers are lockdown/support. Both get to deal with pets of course, but they still do different roles. I feel that the role of attacking and distracting with MM pets while buffing/debuffing from the sidelines is more analogous to Controllers that distract and lockdown while buffing/debuffing than what Doms do. Doms are more about distract enemy quickly, then kill them with range or melee attacks. Which is a lot like what Blasters do.
That's just my opinion though.
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Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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It's already been stated by the devs that Brutes are the Scrappers counterpart. Masterminds are the Tankers counterpart.
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Comparing Villain ATs to Hero ATs one on one is a mistake. Villain ATs are more like two Hero ATs crossed with each other:
Brutes = Scrappers + Tankers
Stalkers = Scrappers + Blasters
Dominators = Controllers + Blasters
Corruptors = Defenders + Blasters
Masterminds = Defenders + Controllers + Their Own Unique Animal
Or as I like to put it:
Masterminds are Tankers that play like Defenders
Brutes are Scrappers that play like Tankers
Stalkers are Blasters that play like Scrappers
Dominators are Controllers that play like Blasters
Corruptors are Defenders. That play like Defenders. With a better Inherent.
I would also say that Tankers, Stalkers, Defenders, Dominators and Masterminds are the specialists. They have a very specific style and strategy that some players may not like. So in that sense I think they will be slightly less popular overall than their counterparts. But they're likely to be the "cult classics", their supporters will stick with them and not change, because it fits their personal style.
Brutes, Scrappers, Corruptors, Blasters and Controllers are more the generic types. They fit more different concepts and thus would be more widely used. For the most part, though, they aren't going to be quite as capable as the specialists in their specialized area. (With some exceptions, Blasters are better at damage dealing than Dominators, though, but I call Dominators the specialists because of their more precise fighting style. A Blaster could be a Blapper, or a ranged fighter, or any combination of the two, so you have more options)
Of course, Masterminds are popular just because of their uniqueness, but I still think they are an AT that requires a specific style of play, and a lot of investment by the player, in setting up keybinds and such. But the above is just a general sense of things, I think.
It's already been stated by the devs that Brutes are the Scrappers counterpart. Masterminds are the Tankers counterpart.
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But alpha isn't tanking. To tank you have to A) alpha, B) survive and persist through the fight, and C) be able to hold the attention of numerous enemies to prevent them from attacking your allies.
Masterminds can do A and B, but not usually C. To maintain aggro you need to be able to taunt in some way, whether through punchvoke, taunt aura, Taunt, or a mix of those. Which MMs themselves don't do, and only one (unless I forgot one) MM pet does. Yes you can take the Pressence pool and taunt enemies (which hits a whopping 5 enemies, with hit check). But that's basically the same as claiming Stalkers are Tanks because they could theoretically take Provoke.
Not to mention, Defensive damage sharing didn't happen at release. It came later on. So the original concept of MMs tanking was "throw NPCs at the enemies to distract them for a few seconds." Which works I guess, but doesn't maintain aggro and is pretty annoying for the MM that has to keep resummoning.
And most of all, "intent" and "design" doesn't mean anything next to "what actually happened." Just because Defenders were designed to be the ultimate support AT doesn't change the fact that most people just take Controllers instead, and Defenders are unpopular as an AT.
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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That is, I think there will be more Tankers who really wanted the play style of a Brute but didn't want to be villains than there will be Brutes who really wanted the play style of a Tanker but didn't want to be heroes. I think Corruptors will similarly win out over Defenders. It doesn't mean Tankers and Defenders will die out - ignoring issues of simple fandom, there are entirely legitimate game-mechanical reasons to prefer a Tanker or Defender over a Brute or a Corruptor. I just think that the equally legitimate game-mechanical reasons to choose Brutes and Corruptors will tend to speak more strongly to more players. So in the end, there will be fewer Tankers and Defenders after GR than before.
Of course, there's likely to be a big rush to villain AT's anyway with GR, since there are just more heroes playing than villains, so adding 5 "new" AT's to hero-side will naturally attract more attention than adding 5 "new" AT's to villain-side.
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