Brutes & Scrappers after Going Rogue?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-12-15 17:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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No such thing as a Spines brute, or Katana, or Broadsword, or Martial Arts. |
Originally Posted by Black_Sabath
Its my understanding that after the next expansion launches. You can create a Brute in the alternative Earth that can be a Hero. Please correct me if I`m wrong on this. I`ve played both a Scrapper & a Brute.
A Brute plays like a Scrapper on Steriods. After the launch of Going Rogue, whats the point of a Scrapper anymore? Everone will just be playing Hero Brutes. You may be seeing alot less tankers. |
No such thing as a Stone scrapper, or SS, or EM.
My guess is they will NOT be porting certain sets to ensure that people have reason to play both ATs.
Unfortunately, aside from Empathy and FF, defenders will largely be going the way of the dodo, since you can play every other set as a corruptor.
Dominators and Controllers will become almost interchangeable, depending on whether the team wants buffs or damage as a side dish to their control.
I have no guesses about stalkers, blasters, or tanks.
We'll be seeing a LOT of blueside MMs, because there is no AT that even comes close currently on blueside.
Scrapper and brute damage are about on par with each other, the difference is brutes need to fight for a while to build up their damage while scrappers start the fight at their full potential.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Its nice to get someone else opion. So far the only lvl 50 I have is a Brute. I have a few scrappers, but the Brute seemed so much easier to play, & enjoy.
It just seemed that the Brute feels alot more powerful than any scrapper I`ve played to date.
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My opinion is exactly the opposite. A brute feels like a scrapper only if there's a lot of fury. Otherwise, she's subpar. A scrapper is consistenly strong from the get go.|
Originally Posted by Black_Sabath
A Brute plays like a Scrapper on Steriods. After the launch of Going Rogue, whats the point of a Scrapper anymore? Everone will just be playing Hero Brutes. You may be seeing alot less tankers.
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I have multiples of each, and while I enjoy brutes, I don't think they're way stronger than scrappers. Equivalent to...maybe, and only under certain conditions. And certain flavors of shield defense scrappers completely blow brutes out of the water in what they are capable of.
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Disagree. You already have mixed teaming situations already (ITF, Lady Grey, Cim, RWZ) and I have never ever heard of a team turn down a defender just so they can take a corruptor or controller instead. Also, certain flavors of defenders (Cold Domination, Traps, TA) completely outclass their corruptor/controller counterparts.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Unfortunately, aside from Empathy and FF, defenders will largely be going the way of the dodo, since you can play every other set as a corruptor.
Dominators and Controllers will become almost interchangeable, depending on whether the team wants buffs or damage as a side dish to their control. |
Also, FF defenders will be going the way of the dodo because of the plethora of defense bonuses available through inventions. Their value right now is already diminished once a team is invested in IOs. Empaths will still have value because fortitude provides other buffs instead of raw defense and the auras are valuable.
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Eh, no one's going the way of the dodo. People want to cry doom and say some AT is going to die, but there's no reason for that. Each AT plays different and people will play what they want to try.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Disagree. You already have mixed teaming situations already (ITF, Lady Grey, Cim, RWZ) and I have never ever heard of a team turn down a defender just so they can take a corruptor or controller instead. Also, certain flavors of defenders (Cold Domination, Traps, TA) completely outclass their corruptor/controller counterparts.
Also, FF defenders will be going the way of the dodo because of the plethora of defense bonuses available through inventions. Their value right now is already diminished once a team is invested in IOs. Empaths will still have value because fortitude provides other buffs instead of raw defense and the auras are valuable. |
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My guess is things will stay mostly the same. Teams will sometimes look for aggro management, DPS, control and buff/debuff. They'll most likely pick whatever fits that role closest and not nitpick too much, there will be exceptions but rarely.
I like Scrappers better because I found managing Fury bothersome, however some enjoy the Fury mechanic. Rejoice the cosmos are still in balance!
I hope they don't hold back on proliferating sets for this reason.
I can see the 3 melee classes each having a role when Going Rogue comes out.
Scrappers do the highest damage from the offset, and due to their high base damage they benefit more from damage buffs. This doesn't become apparent until SO's in some ways.
Say at level 10, a Brute ansd Scrapper are both using Nimble Slash during a prolonged fight, with the Brute at 70% Fury for +140% damage. Neither are enhanced for damage, just a bit of acc and end redux.
Brute does 35 *(1 + 1.4) = 84 damage
Scrapper does 52.5 * (1) = 52.5 damage
The Brute appears to be much stronger once they get their Fury on.
Once they get to SO's though, they both gain .95% damage
Brute does 35 * (1 +.95 +1.4) = 119 damage
Scrapper does 52.5 *(1 + .95) = 102 damage
Add in one serve of Blinding Feint and Power Up (or Build Up for other sets) to give an extra +80% damage:
Brute does 35 *(1 +.95 +1.4 +.8)= 145 damage
Scrapper does 52.5 *( 1 +.95 +.8) =1.95+.8= 145 damage
At typical post 22-conditions, the damage is tied, but the Scrapper is not having to maintain Fury to do it.
I've found Scrappers to be pretty average before SO's. At that point they start to gain the advantages of the high raw damage numbers, their defences start coming together due to enahncements and power selections being available, and they can get Stamina at 20.
Tanks definitely shine after SO's, or rather fail to so before then.
Brutes on the other hand are fun right out of the box.
My point? Don't compare Scrappers, Tanks and Brutes until you've got them to the mid 20's. The lower levels are deceiving blue-side.
Brutes are also not quite as Squish as Scrappers. Do Scrapper have anything compareable to a SS Brute with full Fury & Rage going on? Despite the fact of being around since 2007, I still have alot to learn.
Brutes won't replace Scrappers. Scrappers won't replace Brutes.
Damage wise, Brutes can outshine Scrappers on most combos, this is true. But that also takes maintaining a good sized Fury bar.
They might look the same to play, but they're not.
Brutes to keep up (and possibly surpass) with a scrapper in damage, has to keep going, not stopping.
Now of course, you have scrappers that play like this as well 
However, the scrapper can put on the brakes and not worry about losing damage. A brute does.
As for corrupters replacing defenders. Maybe, in players playing them, but not when looking for teams.
People will continue to go "team lf buff/debuffer" and will take a defender, a corrupter, or possibly even a troller or MM (though Id be a little weary of these ATs at least as I see it right now...lately Ive seen alot of Trollers dropping the team buffs, and MMs who don't buff the team at high levels).
Dominators fall into the damage department when I do the mix sides content.
Nothing will change.
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Man no one loves the Stalker. ;_;
| I can see the 3 melee classes each having a role when Going Rogue comes out. |
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Scrappers and brutes have the exact same defense and resist numbers for toggles, passives and shields. The only difference is that brute hitpoint caps are higher and they also have tanker level caps for resistance. |
Originally Posted by Black_Sabath
Brutes are also not quite as Squish as Scrappers. Do Scrapper have anything compareable to a SS Brute with full Fury & Rage going on? Despite the fact of being around since 2007, I still have alot to learn.
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A well built scrapper without buffs are just as strong as any brute. The difference comes when buffs are applied and brutes can get to the 90% cap while scrappers are limited to 75%.
Let me assure you that scrappers are not lacking in either offense or defense compared to brutes. I'd be happy to provide a demo if you're not convinced.
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In team dynamics, Scrappers stack far better than Brutes. Brutes depend on high Fury (or amazing levels of buffs) to reach or slightly exceed Scrapper damage. Maintaining high Fury typically requires that you hold aggro. There's only so much aggro to go around, and generally, it's going to be focused mostly on a single character. If that one character is a Brute, he's golden. If it's a Tanker, or some other Brute, well, any additional Brutes will grossly underperform compared to Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Black_Sabath
Its my understanding that after the next expansion launches. You can create a Brute in the alternative Earth that can be a Hero. Please correct me if I`m wrong on this. I`ve played both a Scrapper & a Brute.
A Brute plays like a Scrapper on Steriods. After the launch of Going Rogue, whats the point of a Scrapper anymore? Everone will just be playing Hero Brutes. You may be seeing alot less tankers. |
In terms of solo play, Scrappers underperform compared to Brutes somewhat, in the low levels when enhancements don't do much of anything and you can't carry many inspirations. Once you hit SO's, there's not much difference in capability, except that Scrappers perform better when they are pushing the limits of their defensive capabilities and have to take breaks between fights to recover, while Brutes perform better when they are able to keep going constantly and never need to take a breather. That's a matter of your preferred playstyle rather than a meaningful balance metric, though.
Scrappers and Brutes are unlikely to significantly cannibalize off of each others' populations. I can see Brutes cannibalizing Tankers, though - Brutes can tank well enough, and deal a lot more damage than Tankers, while maintaining the general feel of a comic book "brick." Still, there's likely to be some new Tankers cannibalizing Brutes who only rolled Brutes because they wanted to be the best tanks available red side, too. I just don't see any AT dying out, although some may have flaws previously hidden get revealed more starkly when there is a similar feeling AT operating at a balance point the player population likes better. We'll just have to wait and see.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Brutes also have higher base hit points.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Scrappers and brutes have the exact same defense and resist numbers for toggles, passives and shields. The only difference is that brute hitpoint caps are higher and they also have tanker level caps for resistance.
A well built scrapper without buffs are just as strong as any brute. The difference comes when buffs are applied and brutes can get to the 90% cap while scrappers are limited to 75%. Let me assure you that scrappers are not lacking in either offense or defense compared to brutes. I'd be happy to provide a demo if you're not convinced. |
Regardless of that, I don't see brutes replacing scrappers or vice versa. The differences between the two while solo mostly boil down to style differences.
Regarding brutes versus tanks, however, I would much rather have a brute on my team than a tank. I'm very curious as to what, if anything, is done to make tanks more beneficial to teams when a team can buff a brute into tank levels of mitigation while it retains scrapper level damage output.
Be well, people of CoH.
My personal opinion, as always, is Fury is training wheels for Scrapperlock.
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Interesting. For me, scrapperlock was prep-work for properly building brutes.
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Originally Posted by GibsonMcCoy
My personal opinion, as always, is Fury is training wheels for Scrapperlock.
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Be well, people of CoH.
I think the worry isn't brute/scrapper it's brute/tank and stalker/scrapper. Those will probably be the most redundant in the melee category.
Corrs/Defenders should be interesting.
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Agreed. I have yet to find a Brute combo that does anything for me, but I don't deny their potential. (To be fair, I haven't done much searching recently.)|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Regardless of that, I don't see brutes replacing scrappers or vice versa. The differences between the two while solo mostly boil down to style differences.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Regarding brutes versus tanks, however, I would much rather have a brute on my team than a tank. I'm very curious as to what, if anything, is done to make tanks more beneficial to teams when a team can buff a brute into tank levels of mitigation while it retains scrapper level damage output.
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Besides, the doom is a bit premature. I believe at Comic-Con there was a CoX panel where Posi said one of the things on their plate was giving us the ability to make "stronger level 50s, with challenges that make existing content look like a piece of cake" (paraphrased). You could make a lot of theories off of that statement.
Too many unknowns at this point.
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Very true. Rather looking forward to all these unknowns becoming known, ya know?
| Too many unknowns at this point. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Scrapper Lock is stage one of Fury-- attack relentlessly from the top of the pyramid to the bottom of enemy rankings.|
Originally Posted by GibsonMcCoy
My personal opinion, as always, is Fury is training wheels for Scrapperlock.
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Fury stage two also involves agro management akin to a Tank.
Each powerset handles a little differently, but my experiences with my 36 Martial Arts scrapper and 41 Stone Melee brute are pretty much what you'd expect. The scrapper is just plain faster at shredding through enemies, but the brute has more lasting power, and can keep smashing dudes long after my scrapper would have gone crunch. Whichever one is "better" depends entirely on preferred playstyle.
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Well, the fact that from my own teaming redside and ITF/LGTF/RWZ...brutes have a habit of not grabbing taunt (most tankers however take it).|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Brutes also have higher base hit points.
Regardless of that, I don't see brutes replacing scrappers or vice versa. The differences between the two while solo mostly boil down to style differences. Regarding brutes versus tanks, however, I would much rather have a brute on my team than a tank. I'm very curious as to what, if anything, is done to make tanks more beneficial to teams when a team can buff a brute into tank levels of mitigation while it retains scrapper level damage output. |
Not every brute is going to use IOs. A tanker using just SOs, will tank better than a Brute using just SOs.
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Corruptors take over? Nah. Count me in as one who's DYING to get my hands on Defender Villains.
Defenders have two overwhelming advantages: First, better buff/debuff modifiers. Admittedly, those only affect some powersets, but some of the potent ones are affected. Second, primary access to the support set. This means: first, that they get access to the good buffs faster, which IMHO is more important than getting to snipes, nukes, and second AoEs. Second, they can skip the first support power, which is usually something of questionable value. This lets them get a good attack chain faster. All in all, Defenders level much better. Let's look at some sets:
Radiation Emission: Look at a popular damage build, Sonic Blast/Radiation Emission. The Corruptor has more damage, and scourge. But the Defender has better -Res on his attacks, AND better heals and debuffs on Radiation. Furthermore, the early levels are much nicer to build for. Compare a Corruptor progression to level 4: Shriek, Radiant Aura, Radiation Infection, Scream; with a Defender: Radiation Infection, Shriek, Scream, Accelerate Metabolism.
Kinetics Defenders will also stay popular because the set is so end-loaded. Kinetic Defenders get Siphon Speed pre-travel power, Speed Boost pre-stamina, and Transference early enough they can stick it out without Stamina to that point.
Corruptors don't get their meaningful party buff until 20, and get their endurance refill at 35 after, they've probably slotted up stamina. I'm sure they're effective--I love my /Kin Controller--but it's a long slog.
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Corruptor damage scale and Scourge makes up for a lot. Semi-regular freespecs take care of much of the rest.|
Originally Posted by oriand
Corruptors take over? Nah. Count me in as one who's DYING to get my hands on Defender Villains.
Defenders have two overwhelming advantages: First, better buff/debuff modifiers. Admittedly, those only affect some powersets, but some of the potent ones are affected. Second, primary access to the support set. This means: first, that they get access to the good buffs faster, which IMHO is more important than getting to snipes, nukes, and second AoEs. Second, they can skip the first support power, which is usually something of questionable value. This lets them get a good attack chain faster. All in all, Defenders level much better. Let's look at some sets: Radiation Emission: Look at a popular damage build, Sonic Blast/Radiation Emission. The Corruptor has more damage, and scourge. But the Defender has better -Res on his attacks, AND better heals and debuffs on Radiation. Furthermore, the early levels are much nicer to build for. Compare a Corruptor progression to level 4: Shriek, Radiant Aura, Radiation Infection, Scream; with a Defender: Radiation Infection, Shriek, Scream, Accelerate Metabolism. Kinetics Defenders will also stay popular because the set is so end-loaded. Kinetic Defenders get Siphon Speed pre-travel power, Speed Boost pre-stamina, and Transference early enough they can stick it out without Stamina to that point. Corruptors don't get their meaningful party buff until 20, and get their endurance refill at 35 after, they've probably slotted up stamina. I'm sure they're effective--I love my /Kin Controller--but it's a long slog. |
Low levels suck for everybody. By the time you get out of the "everybody hates this part of the game" era, your Corruptor is, if not complete, at least beginning to approach it. Yeah, waiting until 35 for Transference and 38 for Fulcrum Shift blows goats. Then again, so does waiting until 38 for your nuke. Further, not every set is as bottom-loaded as Kinetics. Radiation is positively top-loaded - while EMP is awesome, it's the first powers in the set, which Corruptors get at a reasonable level, that really make the set the jewel that it is. Traps is much the same way.
The long term advantages Defenders offer are better buff and debuff scales, and the ability to skip the first power in the buff/debuff set. Corruptors offer buff and debuff scales that are generally good enough, a substantially better damage scale, and an inherent that's worth the electrons it takes to display its icon on your screen.
In summary, I think that Corruptor secondaries are good enough, and Defender secondaries really aren't. Thus, I see Corruptors being net winners in the war for players once they are in direct competition with Defenders.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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I do, I do!|
Originally Posted by Jake_Summers
Man no one loves the Stalker. ;_;
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I was playing mine just this past Sunday on an AE team; due to the mission dropping a large number of allies, we kept agroing just about every group of foes on the large map (eight man teams makes for large groups of foes).
Guess which melee toon didn't die once (unlike the other melee types) and spent her time cleaning up the agro mess those lay-abouts left?
(note to people my stalker teams with to play AE arcs: j/k of course... uh, hello, why am I on your ignore list?)
As for the question about dying ATs, if anyone's like me I don't see it happening. I like many ATs, but stalkers always feel like a homecoming when I roll a new one; I'm sure there are defender fans, tanker fans, etc. out there as well.
Its my understanding that after the next expansion launches. You can create a Brute in the alternative Earth that can be a Hero. Please correct me if I`m wrong on this. I`ve played both a Scrapper & a Brute.
A Brute plays like a Scrapper on Steriods. After the launch of Going Rogue, whats the point of a Scrapper anymore? Everone will just be playing Hero Brutes. You may be seeing alot less tankers.