What Are Heroes Running FROM?

For my case (assuming I was in a PVP zone in the first place,) I would run to grief the griefer. IE, he attacked me because he wants to PVP. Either he actually wants a decent fight, or he just wants me defeated for the chance at a PVP drop. In either case, he has decided to try to deny me whatever I was supposedly there to get. So I would make every effort to deny him the satisfaction of a fair fight (by running like a bunny) or the drop (by doing everything I can short of actually fighting to avoid being defeated.) For my part, there would be no trash talking involved. Or any other kind of chat. Any trash talking from the aggressor "lulz run n00bz!" would earn him a permanent place on my ignore list.

*Edit* Oh, and for the assertion that everyone who flees from PVP does so out of fear - bull****. Pure and simple. I avoid PVP because it is a game mode I have *less* than zero interest in. I have tried it. The attitudes of many PVP fans are *exactly* why I avoid it. The foul-mouthed trash talking immature slimewads are the most annoying and memorable, but I've found that PVP players in general are not a group I wish to interact with in-game. In some cases, they can behave like decent people outside of PVP. In that case, I have no issues with dealing with them - outside of PVP. In COH specifically, there is also the mechanical disincentive that the PVP zones run under almost completely different rules than the rest of the game, to the point that all but a handful of powers are virtually useless.

I think PvPvE is a pretty cool guy. eh makes all players unhappy and doesnt afraid of anything.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Oh please.

When I'm on my DB/WP and I get attacked in a PvP zone I know for a fact that the other person has almost zero chance of bringing me down in 1 on 1. And this knowledge is not based on assumption but on experience. Experience I gained from fighting in the Arena and in PvP zones (and not only with said DB/WP).

Still I would probably run when attacked in BB or WB.

Why?
Let's think about it for a moment.
Let's start with the reason - my motivation of coming to either BB or WB.
You're already guessing it, right?
It is common knowledge that both zones are almost always dead. And in the rare occasion that you meet someone there, it's very likely they just came for the Shivan/Nuke.
I think it's safe to say that it's unlikely that I went there to PvP.
And yes, if you assumed I came there to get the Shivan/Nuke you're absolutely correct.
Ok, I just started collecting meteor shards and suddenly I get attacked by a villain.
My first reaction is to start moving and gain distance.

Why?
Well, this should be obvious. I need a short moment to get some overview and to evaluate the situation. And I don't want to be a "sitting duck" and make it easier for all those Stalkers to coordinate their AS on me.
I know from experience that if you are getting attacked it's usually one of the following situations:
a) Someone is trying to start a fight with me. I have to explain this a bit more: These people want the fight. The don't really want to hinder you from getting your Shivan/Nuke. Often they even help you after the fight, for example by letting you kill them to give the shards/codes back and/or by helping to take out turrets, guards and other opponents. This is possible but unlikely in BB and WB (at least from my experience which might be biased because I usually PvP in RV or Sirens Call). PvPers who are looking for a fight usually go to RV, SS or the Arena. And often they ask for consent first.
b) Someone is trying to grief me. There are two subtypes in this category.
b1) These people want the fight. But at the same time they want to to stop you from reaching your goal. This is NOT the classical griefer and I respect their right to do what they do in a PvP zone. But I still end up with no Shivan/Nuke which is "unfun".
b2) These people only want to stop you from reaching your goal. The fight is just the method to do it. Their fun comes from trying to make you miserable irl. This is the typical griefer and he should better be banned from this game today than tomorrow.
(Actually there are more categories and subcategories - if you put it to the extreme you'll need to judge each person individually. It's not just black and white. But I'm trying to keep it simple here.)

What to do next?
I still want my Shivan and I prefer to have it now. But I still don't know the intention of the attacker.
So what do I do?
Easy. I ask. (If the villain gives me the time to do that.)
I send a tell or try local and/or broadcast chat. I try to state in a polite way that I have no intention to fight and that I'm only in the zone to get the temp power.
If it's someone from the "a" category he might explain to me that I'm in a PvP zone and stuff (gah ... I know where I am) but in the end these people typically leave you alone or even help you - sometimes asking for a fight in return. And they stay polite and mature! (Well, sometimes you might get some trashtalk. But in the "a" category it's usually more or less friendly, often very creative and never insulting on a personal level.)
If it's someone from the "b/b2" category he might tell me that I'm stupid to come to a PvP zone if I don't want to PvP, that I suck, that I can't beat him "ev4r", that he will come to my house and **** me and then **** my mother and I can't do anything about it (and yes, I petitioned the jerk who dropped that line). To make things clear: this is NOT RP, these are attacks aimed at the person playing the character making it very personal.
Often the only response is, that he continues his attacks. I will never be certain, but in these cases I assume he's from the "b/b1" category.

How to react now?
When it's someone from the "a" category it's easy (for me). I'll get my temp power and give him a good fight. Case closed.
If it's someone from the "b" category I have to think about it.
The question is, will I still be able to complete my goal and get what I came for?
Unfortunately it's very unlikely that I'll manage to get my temp power now (with reasonable effort). There are too many ways to stop my progress and even if I kill the villain over and over he just needs to come back and interrupt me, when I click a glowie, or train mobs on me or do other stuff (I don't think it would be wise to explain all methods of griefing in BB and WB that I know ).
So I decide to leave and come back later.

Why just leaving when it's faster to get back to the base by letting the other player kill you?
Are you serious?
Simple answer:
If I let you kill me I loose and you win.
If I run and leave I win and you loose.
It was your goal to fight and kill me and by denying you that I win.
My goal was to get the temp power and all you could achieve is just a temporary setback for me. I can still come back later and reach my goal. So leaving doesn't mean loosing.

That was probably the hardest thing for me to learn back when I was still playing Battlefield. If I get shot, I DO NOT stand still and look around to see where I'm getting shot from so I can try and return fire. If I do this, I DIE. When getting shot, the proper response is what anyone who's been in armed conflict will tell you to do - TAKE COVER! Not in a minute, not in a little while, not when you've shot back. Immediately. Just eye up your damage direction indicator and duck behind the nearest obstacle, on the side opposite to where the shots are coming from. It's the only way to save your life. You have limited time to respond and no time to retaliate before you go down. Hiding is the only option.

I treat unknown, unexpected danger in any environment the same way. If I get hurt, then the response is simple - back off, take cover, assess the situation and only fight back once you know what you're doing. If I get assassinated, there's no way in HELL I'd start looking around and trying to figure out who to hit. I high-tail it out of there and see if I can't spot the threat. If I can't, I leave. It's what's prudent.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

That actually sounds like it'd be a lot more fun than what we have now, and sounds an awful lot like an Unreal mod. Anything that requires direct confrontation with the enemy to forward is PvP in my book, and is something I would engage in if I were looking for PvP benefits. What you're describing is sort of a cross between Capture the Flag and Bombing Run, and I like it. Confine people in a smaller space so they run across each other more and you have something I'd engage in freely.

The problem, once again, is population. There isn't any. Right now, PvP is no different from logging into AS_Convoy and being the only person in the server. Sure, you can steal the rockets, but that misses the whole point of the map AND the game.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Umm in WoW you can use your honor points from camping the battle grounds to get weapons and armor...

If we allow people to be immune to PvP while in PvP zones we should allow people to have PvP in regular zones ^_^.

I fell this depends on the definition of dog. If you mean screaming like an angered howler monkey about them beating feet then no that's annoying, pointless, and even a bit counter productive. If you mean chase down and attempt to kill then yes, that's what the zone is for.

One thing you're missing here.

Setup - we have two people.
Player 1 is there and doesn't want to PVP. We'll put him on a blaster.
Player 2 is on a stalker, and does enjoy PVP.

Player 1 is going on about his business getting a shivan when Player 2 attacks. Player 1 takes off running.

Now, we've already established that some people think "I just got ASed, I don't like PVP, and this guy probably has five buddies just lining up to kill me RIGHT NOW. I'm leaving."

You're not thinking of the flip side. Player 2, *by similar experience,* knows this guy might just be leading him into a group of his OWN buddies. Why is he attacking? To get the kill before it becomes a 5v1 blaster/tank/defender-fest and he's outnumbered, slowed, debuffed and the like. Stalkers, depending on set, don't have +perception. They're not VEATs, with their own Leadership powers built into the sets. He doesn't *know* there's not a group that hasn't taken Hyper Stealth (the zone temp power,) an Ill/ troller GI-ing his friends or the like.

Also, yes, player 1 is there for a reward - the shivan. So is player 2 - rep. And, for player 2, getting away with the kill is ALSO a reward. He's getting it before player 2's potential rest-of-the-team shows up, or so he hopes.

See... many times, it seems PVPers are painted - among other things - as all knowing gods in the zone. They "know" you're just there for the shivan/badge/whatever. They "know" you're alone. They sneak up and take your HPs, your friends HPs, and HPs from the kid/grandkid/great grandkid you wont' have for another ten years' first five characters. Well... they (we) don't. /whoall doesn't tell us anything but "There are this many unhidden people in the zone." We're taking a risk for a fight - yes, even if it's 5-on-1 in our favor, again, we might just be snagging the stragger. Or walking into a trap.

That's also part of why some PVPers like the zones. Think of how long some of you have played -do you know every map in the game? "Oh, it's this one." "Boss hunt, gah, the five-layer-cave." "Not the water room." "Infernal." "Psy Clockwork King." Be honest - you probably had the exact layout of that room in your mind as soon as that was mentioned. You know where you'll probably find enemies. Where's the boss? Oh, this room, let's just rush right to the back, or hey, they're in one of three spots.

Now, while I might know the layout of the PVP *zones,* I don't know, from one hour to the next, what I'll be facing when I step in there. Is that SK'd up "level 15" blaster someone who's never played before, or is it - say - Macskull who's going to show me new and interesting ways to get killed before I know he's there? Am I facing bait? What powers did he take? Where is he going, what is he planning? All questions I don't have to ask about PVE content (in this case, referring to "the rest of the game outside the zones.") And yes, those questions include "Is he avoiding me because he's about to hit me from over there, or trying not to fight?" and "Is he running because he doesn't want to fight, or because I'm about to meet seven of his closest, IO'd out, lvl 50 experienced PVPer SG mates?"

*I'm* not going to take the time to ask that. If I ask it before - well, you now have advance warning and have time to plan it out. If I ask after, I'm a sitting duck as I type - and can I really trust your answer, if YOU take the time to type it out instead of putting as much space between you and me as you can? If I ask before - I've just given you free information you can use to kill me.

Edit to add:

Part of *my* fun, as well, is about to come up, potentially - but isn't otherwise served very well in the PVP zones. I like to *hunt.* Even if there ends up not being a fight involved, I enjoy a hunt. It's part of why - again - much of my PVP jonesing is served by Aion these days. "Rift up!" - time to scout out the Asmodians (or Elyos, depending) and see who came through, report them back and maybe get a good couple of fights and Abyss points out of it.

Why do I say my fun is (potentially) about to come up? The winter event. One of the most "fun" PVP encounters, for me, ended up involving no fight.... hell, not even seeing the other player. I'm zipping around BB when I notice Winter horde. Now, I didn't open that present - someone else is in the zone, or was *very* recently. /whoall - they know about /ghide as well. Hmmm... Try and find the next present, see if I can find them. I'm not calling out in broadcast, I don't want them to be able to prepare for me. I track down a few more presents that have been opened - then, nothing. They may have gone into a mission. They may have left the zone. I have no idea - but trying to find out was *fun.*

See my Guides and Tutorials

I tried PVP, after I was attacked while farming Mu Guardians in RV. I played for a couple of hours, then the next weekend I went back and played for a couple more hours until I got the kills for the badge. I got killed a bunch of times, obviously, but all that costs is a 30 second trip to the hospital, so it isn't like there's actually any penalty attached to it in CoH. However, I've never gone back since. Ultimately, I just found it much less enjoyable compared to the PVE content.

I play CoH because I like mowing down massed ranks of PVE enemies, preferably using fireballs. Also, the steady trickle of drops provides intermittent rewards that satisfy my inner magpie. What I really want to do is play Diablo II, but my other half got bored of that, so I had to find something new if I wanted him to play co-op with me. PVP is simply not what I enjoy in a computer game.

Or they're like me -- I know it's silly, but I'd honestly never thought of getting out of the zone faster by just getting killed. But then, I never remember my self-destruct power, either, or my mission TP. I'll try to remember next time. Who knows, maybe someone will even get a PVP drop off me on my way out :-)

I will still always leave zones when PVPers show up, though, and without saying anything on broadcast. It would seem rude to even ask people to leave me alone to do my PVE badge farming/temp power collecting when I'm in their PVP zone. And considering how vanishingly few people there are in PVP zones, I sometimes feel like I'm getting people's hopes up just by being in there.

I was with you up to this point but here you are flat-out WRONG.
It's a *PvP ZONE*. If you go in, you accept that you might be attacked. If that is not acceptable, then stay out. It's as simple as that. Someone attacking you is NOT being rude. They are engaging in PvP in a zone specifically designated for that activity.

The only illogic and nonsense I'm seeing is when you restate my position for me, twisting it as you feel suitable, then knock it down.

Of course I'm not saying that running is fun. I'm saying that it's less annoying than being attacked.


Now you're just making up BS. Unless, of course, you can guarantee that the goal of the PvP'er is to defeat the target once and then leave them alone. In reality, SOME PvP'ers will defeat the target AGAIN AND AGAIN even if they gain no rep for it. So your numbers are total hogwash because the PvP'er in question isn't *YOU*. Only then could you state how the situation will go.

I said most. Not all. And I'm refering more to people who refuse to PvP at all.

I agree completely with the rest of your post. I don't PvP competitvely because I am achieving NOTHING outside of being able to stroke my e-peen afterwards. If engaging in PvP meant I was achieving some sort of PvE goal that would reward my faction, my characters progression or SG progression. I would be PvPing quite a bit.

Right now the only incentive I have to attack other players is for the possibility that a PvP IO will drop and that still isn't much of an incentive to PvP cause it really isn't PvP. It's just farming players like I would NPCs for loot.

That's great, but it didn't answer my question.

If the person runs, and evinces exactly ZERO desire to PVP, doing everything in their power to get away not not attacking a single time, do you feel you have the inherent right to hound them out of the zone?

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

I think the assumption is that nobody would start a fight without a reasonable expectation that he or she could win.* The aggressor in PvP has the advantage, in my opinion, especially if the the target was unprepared or distracted.

*This may be assuming too much. I've seen some boneheadedly suicidal behavior in PvP zones.

And this is where the developers (cryptic) dropped the ball with PvP.

A PvP zone is a zone where players should go TO engage other players. Implementing tasks in PvP zones that have little or nothing to do with PvP engagement is ridiculous.

Neither party is wrong. THe PvPers are not in the wrong for wanting to attack other players in a PvP zone; neither are the people there just for temp powers or badges.

The only party in the wrong are the developers.

While this is true to an extent, I also beleive that the developers were correct in their (assumed) perception that if there were no PvE tasks in PvP zones, there would be even less PvP than there currently is.

The PvE goals in PvP zones are there for two reasons:

- They are there to give meaning to the PvP.
- They are bait.

If you attack someone in a PvP zone and they run, there are really only two answers to why they ran:

- They don't think they can win, AND they don't think it would be fun to fight regardless.
- The bait worked. It drew in a PvE'er, and they weren't there to PvP in the first place, and they are heading back to PvE land, precisely as they should.

One of the reasons that PvP mechanics were changed was to make PvP harder to flee from (but not impossible) and easier to survive so that the PvE'ers who were baited in would have a chance to fight and win, or at least fight long enough to find it fun.

A noble effort, but not as successful as some would have hoped.

No. The two are unrelated. I suppose it could make some roleplaying sense, but otherwise is simply pointless.

I'm not entirely against the idea, though. I suppose it would add new dynamics to the game, but in the end we'd wind up with a lot those Level 50 players in Atlas Park and Cap Au Diable beating the crap out of lowbies simply because they can.

This part has been dealt with by Hyperstrike. I'm not agreeing to PVP. I'm agreeing to the possibility that it will happen.

Look, folks, the point of my post wasn't to say "Don't attack me."

It was "TALK TO ME!"

Find out if I'm there to fight or if I'm there for Shivans. I once went into Warburg and got help from a Stalker when I was getting a Rocket. How did we coordinate this? The stalker TALKED to me. I even offered to have a fight if "she" wanted (I didn't know the Stalker at the time), but "she" politely declined, saying she had somewhere else to be.

I once went into Siren's Call and got into about six fights (half I lost, two I won, and one ended in a draw; all because one side or the other would have friends swoop in and sideswipe the fight). I talked to my opponents, I got the lay of the fight. I didn't just pick a target and start swinging.

I've been in each and every one of the PvP zones, for the temporary powers, badges and for the fighting experience. In each instance, I enjoyed myself...

But I've also come across my bad experiences. I was grinding missions in Warburg on my first Brute, and a Stalker repeatedly attacked me. Why? "I just like killing folks." I was half dead from fighting Shivans when another Stalker cut me in half. Why? No reason, it seems; I was just there.

And in Recluse's Victory, when hunting Heroes, we had a lone fire Blaster show up, bomb the group while they were fighting the turrets, and run. This would cause some of us to faceplant. We repeatedly informed the heretofore-called "griefer" that we weren't there to fight Players, we were there for the Hero-Class NPC badges. His response: "I don't care."

When I took this griefer down because I popped Tier 3 Defense and Accuracy Inspirations, he of course proceeded to whine. It seems I wasn't playing according to his rules or I wasn't playing his game.

You want me to recognize the validity of your refusal to obey a simple course of etiquette. Then I guess you'll also have to accept the validity of my usage of Tier 3 Inspirations to curb stomp your character into paste if I'm pressed into a fight I had no original intention of getting into. It seems both sides have their own ideas of "etiquette."

The way I see PvP, whatever resources I have going in are the resources available to me. Before you say it, just because I'm loaded for bear doesn't mean I want to hunt bear.

Wrong. It can also be the desire to win. Not against the character, but against the PvPer. The PvPer wants to fight? Deny him the fight and you win.

Now there's behavior I recognize. I gave up getting the badges in RV a long time ago because it was impossible to organize a hunt for the NPCs without griefers showing up specifically trying to make it impossible. I finally did though - during the 5th anniversary, when they spawned outside of RV and we could fight them without the PvPer griefers being able to stop us.

why would they play to lose?

Yes, actually it *does* answer the question.

You're assuming I *know* why you're running ("I don't want to fight.") I don't. If you say "I don't want to fight," unless you're a fast typist or have a bind - and remember, the other player *may hot have enemy chat on,* so they wouldn't see it - you're risking me catching you and killing your character. But that's still the *only* way I know your intention.

I, even interested in PVP, will run to get better position. Or to get a few seconds for a specific power to recharge. Or for my stealth to kick back in. Or to draw you over to my friends.

Running, on its own, *tells me nothing* about your desire or intention. Yes, that includes "while not attacking," since attacks make suppression kick in, slowing the runner down. Or the character could be a support character drawing me to the team, again, while counting on "target lock" to keep the chaser's attention. Or, again, you could have stealth that, since you were working on a shard ("attacking" it suppresses stealth) is not back on yet.

There are a lot of reasons to run without attacking - "I don't want to fight, just leave me alone" is only one of them.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Well, there is reason. Yes, you are there. Yes, it's a PVP zone. They also get rep, and a chance at an IO drop (as well as inf/prestige, or possible salvage and insps.)

Why do you stop and kill random mobs on the streets of Paragon? They're an enemy, you're rewarded for defeating them. Why should you (an enemy to that stalker) be any different in a PVP zone? You were a target of opportunity with an attached reward.

See my Guides and Tutorials