What Are Heroes Running FROM?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-11 09:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There's a huge difference between clicking on a helicopter to zone and talking to an NPC contact that gives you a PvE mission to complete. Either way you're still ignoring the fact that SOMEBODY has to fight NPC turrets and click on meteors (PvE content) to get objects so they can complete the NPC-given mission. Even if that person isn't you.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
OK. Let's take this to the ultimate conclusion with just this statement.
No zone in the game is a PVP zone. Why? Because you must interact with the PVE world to get there. (The flyer/chopper or its pilot, or an arena terminal. After all, by your own statement, you have to "interact with an object" - not fight, just interact - thus forcing it to be PVE.) There, argument solved. There are no longer any PVP zones. It's all PVE with some relaxed rules about player interaction. (And quite honestly, you've just ripped the PVP out of multiple games that most assuredly ARE PVP based with that, as well.) Sound ridiculous? Yes. But, IMHO, so does that statement as *any* measure of what's PVP or PVE. |
Yes, PvP content can include PvE content. And pretty much always does. But just because PvP is POSSIBLE doesn't mean it's PvP content. PvP is technically POSSIBLE if I happen to wander into Warburg on my way to a Freakshow mission, but that doesn't make it PvP content.
What makes it PvP content is when fighting with players is the intended goal or resolution. When the objective can't be completed without fighting players. When the entire point is to battle with players. That's not the case with these supposed PvP content missions, where PvP interactions are not only scarce and not required, but the end result is barely a nuisance (as it takes maybe two minutes to swing back and get another shard).
Yes, PvP interactions can speed up or slow down your completion of the mission. But hey, so can inventions, so this is clearly invention content. And being level 50 can make things go faster, so it's post-50 content. And having friends along, so it's teaming content.
So no, just because you talk to an NPC who gives you a PvE mission that says "PvP can happen but probably won't, and definitely isn't required" that doesn't make it PvP content.
For these missions, PvP is a hazard, not a goal. No different than bumping into some purple Nemesis guys on your way to a mission. Either that or it's Nemesis content.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Also - quick note to hyperstrike. I think I've been going from arguing over into "aggressive" with you. It's certainly not my intent to do so, if it has come off like that. And if it has, sorry - think we're just going to have to agree we see this vastly differently and leave it at that.
Clicking on a contact or a part of the environment (meteor) is neither PVE nor PVE, it's just game mechanics.
Destroying turrets to access a firebase is definitely PVE though, and it is required that someone do this, whether that person is you or not.
And again, we're arguing semantics here. I don't think that anyone would disagree that this is a PVE-required mission with an equally accessible PVP option, unless you steadfastly believe that someone else's PVE actions don't matter.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I think our playing styles are probably pretty similar then. The reason I gravitated toward Alterac Valley when I decided to try PvP in WoW was because it was the only one of their battlegrounds that actually seemed more like a battle and less like a game. I never really engaged in duels or any of the other PvP nonsense that they had... just as I don't really do the arena here.|
For me, these days - yes, I'll still look for a fight in the zones. But most of my PVP jonesing is filled with Aion, which - again - has both sorts of experience. The Abyss is purely (well, "nearly purely") PVP. It's risk of PVP, 24/7. (Yes, it's PVPVE - perhaps we should start using that label for our zones.) And after certain levels, rifts can take players between Elyos and Asmodae, but in limited numbers (limited uses and levels,) and there are missions that specifically call for you to *go* to the other side. Yes, they could - if you're lucky - be purely PVE missions (I have, for instance, one to deliver a bundle of spy orders to an NPC, another to kill some specific animals found only on the other side, and a third to talk to some NPC) but the chance of actually DOING them without having to fight is exceedingly small. It's got more of a mix (and better balance - which IMHO comes from fewer, less specialized classes, since our 14 with multiple powersets... oy...) In any case, honestly they have both. Concentrated in a mostly-PVP-based area, as well as "run through an open zone to do an objective." And IMHO they pull it off rather well, without what sounds like that battleground-style instance. So it can be done. |
I guess I've been pretty lucky in that I've always tended to build AT's that are fairly well geared toward pvping, (or at least surviving for some length of time), because on the few occasions where rp/pvp has come into play with my SG's, I've done pretty well. That's not to say I can hold my own against the players that really do devote a lot of time and energy into building characters specifically designed to PvP, only that I do well enough against people at my level of skill in the activity that I don't embarass myself.
But to me, it will always come down to relevance... whether or not the activity has any relevance to the advancement of the ongoing narrative of whatever character I happen to be playing at a given time. And like I've said before, I think that is where this game fails and it may have something to do with the genre from which its drawn.
Comic books are essentially about 1v1 conflicts or in the case of team books small unit conflicts. Though there are examples of large unit conflicts in various comics over the years, usually those are 'events' rather than the norm. Unfortunately here, there is no nod to the rather personal nature of the superhero/supervillain conflict. There is no surrounding narrative to the conflict.
Ultimately, a superhero, unlike a member of the horde or alliance in WoW, is not usually part of a larger paranormal army. It's a genre that, almost more than any other, celebrates the indivual nature of personal heroism or villainy. And sans me stopping something that your character is actively trying to do, there's no particular reason for me to fight you except to engage in the same sort of gladiatorial nonsense that I dislike about dropping the flag or accepting a duel challenge in WoW.
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Not sure if you just stopped the quote there to write the reply, or if you were writing while I added the rest to it. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
There's a huge difference between clicking on a helicopter to zone and talking to an NPC contact that gives you a PvE mission to complete. Either way you're still ignoring the fact that SOMEBODY has to fight NPC turrets and click on meteors (PvE content) to get objects so they can complete the NPC-given mission. Even if that person isn't you.
Yes, PvP content can include PvE content. And pretty much always does. But just because PvP is POSSIBLE doesn't mean it's PvP content. PvP is technically POSSIBLE if I happen to wander into Warburg on my way to a Freakshow mission, but that doesn't make it PvP content. What makes it PvP content is when fighting with players is the intended goal or resolution. When the objective can't be completed without fighting players. When the entire point is to battle with players. That's not the case with these supposed PvP content missions, where PvP interactions are not only scarce and not required, but the end result is barely a nuisance (as it takes maybe two minutes to swing back and get another shard). Yes, PvP interactions can speed up or slow down your completion of the mission. But hey, so can inventions, so this is clearly invention content. And being level 50 can make things go faster, so it's post-50 content. And having friends along, so it's teaming content. So no, just because you talk to an NPC who gives you a PvE mission that says "PvP can happen but probably won't, and definitely isn't required" that doesn't make it PvP content. For these missions, PvP is a hazard, not a goal. No different than bumping into some purple Nemesis guys on your way to a mission. Either that or it's Nemesis content. |
With your NPC, you're ignoring one thing - the "V" in the middle. Versus. Implies some sort of struggle, contesting of the finish, etc.
"Defeat 10 Hellions" is obviously a PVE mission. Player *versus* the environment. Most players are going to call "Talk to Azuria" a fedex, not a "PVE" because... well, you're not "versus" anything.
My primary objection is with having "You talk to an NPC" or "you interact with a glowie in a non-violent manner" (IE, you click, not destroy) as any reason for labeling something PVE. As I said - I can get the meteor shards without fighting *anything,* player or environment. There's no struggle, no opposition, just time. Because, yes, if just "interact with something that's not a player" makes something PVE content, then - yes, with an admitted (even in the quoted post) stretch, nothing in the game is PVP content. You listed computers, I listed the helicopter. What, really, is the difference between them? Both are gateways to accessing the content.
Hell, in Siren's Call, I must interact with an NPC to turn in the bounty that I've gotten from fighting other players. Does that now make those PVP-only interactions PVE content, since I have to see the NPC to "complete" it? That's the rule of thumb you're giving above.
I'm saying that's a bad yardstick to use to determine "What's PVE and what's PVP."
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The versus part is where someone has to fight turrets. Maybe that person isn't you, but someone has to. It's not possible to complete it without some final result after a player fights NPCs.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Not sure if you just stopped the quote there to write the reply, or if you were writing while I added the rest to it.
With your NPC, you're ignoring one thing - the "V" in the middle. Versus. Implies some sort of struggle, contesting of the finish, etc. "Defeat 10 Hellions" is obviously a PVE mission. Player *versus* the environment. Most players are going to call "Talk to Azuria" a fedex, not a "PVE" because... well, you're not "versus" anything. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Then why are you stressing, in your post, clicking on an NPC for the mission and interacting with meteors? I ask because you seemed to be sure to emphasize those over any dealings with turrets - since as you point out, I may not deal with turrets at all.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
The versus part is where someone has to fight turrets. Maybe that person isn't you, but someone has to. It's not possible to complete it without some final result after a player fights NPCs.
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Also, what's your opinion of the "remake" of the meteor mission - specifically the firebases - I put in? It would satisfy your requirements for a "PVP" mission, but how do you feel the resulting process would be received?
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I'm sure I'm not stressing it as much as you think I am. But speaking to NPCs and interacting with objects is still PvE content, weak as it may be. You are versus an environment, even if the only versus you face is having to travel somewhere. You're versus a time-wasting zone where you have to travel and possibly bump into obstacles (NPCs or players). In fact, blueside is full of this fun PvE content where the environment part consists of traveling across seventy zones. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Then why are you stressing, in your post, clicking on an NPC for the mission and interacting with meteors? I ask because you seemed to be sure to emphasize those over any dealings with turrets - since as you point out, I may not deal with turrets at all.
Also, what's your opinion of the "remake" of the meteor mission - specifically the firebases - I put in? It would satisfy your requirements for a "PVP" mission, but how do you feel the resulting process would be received? |
You're always in an environment. You're always dealing with NPCs, traveling, badguys, and other things. Bloody Bay is an environment. A PvP environment. PvP is part of its environment, but not guaranteed nor required. Fighting Freaks is in a warehouse PvE. But so is running a boring patrol mission around Atlas Park that involves no combat at all.
Collecting Shivan Shards is PvE content because you are versus the environment of Bloody Bay. One of the obstacles in Bloody Bay is players. Now before you claim that that definition means there's no such thing as PvP content, collecting bounties in Siren's Call IS PvP content, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to do it without PvPing. It's still also PvE content, but that's pushed into the back seat because the point and goal of the exercise is to PvP. The point and goal of getting a Shivan Shard is not to PvP. It's merely an obstacle. A background effect inside the environment of Bloody Bay.
Basically all content is PvE content. Because you deal with NPCs, contacts, random badguys, planned badguys, time limits, and other things. You're always dealing with the environment. You're not always dealing with PvP. When you absolutely have to PvP, that's PvP content.
And to answer your other question, no, I don't think redoing something that offers a reward that's mostly used in PvE to require PvP is a good idea at all. But the argument isn't about whether it SHOULD be PvP content, it's about whether it IS PvP content. If it was changed the way you suggest, it WOULD be PvP content. But it would also be a bad idea.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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So, by your standard, if I set up an arena match, and I have to interact with the arena kiosk object, the arena is PVE content?|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I'm sure I'm not stressing it as much as you think I am. But speaking to NPCs and interacting with objects is still PvE content, weak as it may be.
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Similarly, in games where there are Capture the Flag PVP games, since winning the game involves touching an object (the enemy flag) that doesn't TECHNICALLY require fighting enemy players, obviously Capture The Flag is, in fact, a PVE mission?
Is this correct?
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Nonsense. It's both. There's two ways to gain the shards needed to complete the mission, both of them equally valid. I don't know why people can't just admit that it's a PvE and PvP mission. It's as though people are afraid that if they admit that there's a legitimate PvP component integral to the mission, they won't have an argument any longer for not wanting to fight.
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Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
You keep using "can". When that "can" changes to "must" you'll have a PvP content mission. While it remains a "can" it will be a PvE content mission.
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If these missions are meant to be PvP then by god remove all the mobs guarding the stuffs. That's the thing, 90% of the time the risks involved AREN'T PvP, they're PvE. You want to get nukes, got the god awful Arachnoids hanging around to make your life hellish (high regen rate and toxic damage...oh and they come in huge groups...) or Shivans popping up to stop you getting that meteor.
If the rewards are so high due to the 'risk' of PvP then just remove those mobs and make PvP the REAL risk instead of mobs that are overpowered due to the Issue 13 PvP nerfs (which if I remember correctly, the zone enemies still haven't been balanced around).
Oh and while you're at it depower the damn signature villains/heroes in RV just a tad, a full on GM level signature hero isn't the easiest thing to beat even with a team of 8 in PvE why on earth are they that powerful in a high risk PvP zone?
Admittedly I did duo all but Statesman with a fellow Mastermind (thankfully MMs can drop insps on the heavy pet and give them lots of buffs to allow them to tank the heroes).
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No more than, say, the Loa Bone, or a Nictus fragment, or a Jump Pack.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
SO the reward - directly influenced by mechanics and *location* (PVP zone) with associated risk, doesn't matter to you.... mmmkay.
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Nice to have, but not necessary.
My argument isn't "they should pull this to a PVE zone". My argument is that, at the lowest levels, it's still PVE content. Even if there are alternatives for acquiring some of the stuff by PVP, someone STILL had to PVE to complete the mission. Both to initially get the fragments, and then to access the console.
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| No, and quit being foolish about it. |
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| That's direct reference to how *PVP directly influences the intent and reward of the mission*. |
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| Nope. I can take a processed shard away from you. PVP. |
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| Actually, it has been in the past (to remove any semblance of anything someone could consider PVE from the PVP zones.) Said in this thread? No, not to my recollection. Often said earlier in response to "I want my badges/shivans/other rewards, I have the right to be left alone" type posts. |
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| Is it? |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
OK. Let's take this to the ultimate conclusion with just this statement.
No zone in the game is a PVP zone. Why? Because you must interact with the PVE world to get there. (The flyer/chopper or its pilot, or an arena terminal. After all, by your own statement, you have to "interact with an object" - not fight, just interact - thus forcing it to be PVE.) There, argument solved. There are no longer any PVP zones. It's all PVE with some relaxed rules about player interaction. (And quite honestly, you've just ripped the PVP out of multiple games that most assuredly ARE PVP based with that, as well.) Sound ridiculous? Yes. But, IMHO, so does that statement as *any* measure of what's PVP or PVE. Oh - and when is clicking on a glowie counted as "Versus?" The computer doesn't fight back. It doesn't try to prevent me from completing the mission. It doesn't give away my position (though it does keep me in place for several seconds for another player to possibly kill me.) Edit: So, let's redesign this to be a purely PVP mission, that cannot be completed without PVP, and has no PVE interaction (no, clicking on an NPC or glowie does not count, there is no "versus" - which implies opposition - involved there.) What in the mission now is PVE - environment resisting and threatening (versus) you, unavoidable conflict? The turrets. I can get (and typically do) the shards without fighting anything or risking being attacked by the environment. (Jetpack, hover at 65 feet, the shivans often won't even come out. Yes, even at the meteor hidden under the trees.) So how do we purify this mission to be strictly PVP? 1. It is unavailable if there is nobody from the other side in the game. It requires PVP to finish. 2. The firebases are completely locked down. In order to unlock them, there are no turrets - every opposing player, on defeat, releases a key. Only one is needed to enter a firebase (renamed bunker.) Teleporting is disabled. 3. Keys cannot be kept. They cannot be traded, stored, sold, or acquired in any way other than by defeating another player. 4. Bunkers will only let one player in at a time. The player must have their own key. The bunker relocks immediately after a player enters and finishes. 5. Players with keys must have taken at least X% damage from an opposing player. Confused same-side players do not count. (enter RP reason about "blood is required to activate the key.") This is to prevent someone just standing around to get killed. Does that sound Fun? Does that sound like anybody whatsoever would bother? Or does it sound like it'd sabotage the zone, reducing population further? |
You're still missing the point Bill.
Nobody's saying the mission should be changed. Or that PVP should be deactivated or any of your other hypotheticals.
They're saying that the mission is a PVE mission with some PVP alternatives that still require some amount of PVE.
Nothing more. Nothing less. Trying to expand it into anything more than that is a pointless exercise and a strawman.
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Yeah, PvP sucks. I never stay around when I'm hit, because you never know if there are 3 other Stalkers just waiting to hit you.|
Originally Posted by Myriad
It's not about running from a fight or being afraid of a villain (no matter the level). Some people just don't like to PvP and actively avoid it. And if the person from the other side follows you around and tries to harass you ... like you did with that tank ... they just leave and do something they have fun with.
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When I want PvP I fire up a game that is designed for it and is balanced with it in mind, which means an FPS: Call of Duty 1 or 2, Quake Live, etc.
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Not a problem Bill. I tend to be "in your face" as well. It's just the way I am. So if I'm coming across as offensive, I apologize too.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Also - quick note to hyperstrike. I think I've been going from arguing over into "aggressive" with you. It's certainly not my intent to do so, if it has come off like that. And if it has, sorry - think we're just going to have to agree we see this vastly differently and leave it at that.
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And I guess agreeing to disagree is going to have to suffice.
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Not to me. Not at all.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Content put into a task force is, unarguably, task force content.
Content in AE is pretty bluntly AE content. Content you can only get via events is event content. Yet content in a PVP zone .... isn't PVP content? Sounds double-standard-ish to me. |
In order to experience content in a task force, you must run the TF.
Same with AE.
Same with event content.
However, putting PvE content in a PvP zone does NOT make it PvP content because you can still experience it WITHOUT ENGAGING IN PVP. Putting it in a PvP zone doesn't automatically force PvP to occur. It just means that it MIGHT. So it remains accurate to call it "PvE content in a PvP zone".
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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You're the one who doesn't seem to get it. Since the objective can be completed while I am the only person in the zone, it is OBVIOUSLY not PvP content.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
Let me break this down for you since you just seem don't get it. It is pvp content because I can go in there and only defeat other players for the nuke codes/shiv fragments and get these rewards that makes it pvp content. Just cause there are other options for completion is irrelevant.
edit: I DO NOT have to pve to get these rewards at all. get it that makes it pvp |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Okay, so that's where your understanding fails. Fun is entirely a matter of personal perception. Aside from the fact that no one has to explain why something isn't fun for them, they might not be able to.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
"Because it's not fun" is an unresponsive answer; it doesn't explain what part of it is unfun or non-fun or anti-fun.
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"I don't enjoy it."
"Why not?"
"I dunno. It just isn't fun."
"But what makes it not fun."
"I dunno. It just isn't."
Doesn't an exchange like that sound entirely likely?
It's like asking someone why they don't like the taste of peanut butter. They just don't.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Yep. I reached this conclusion a couple pages ago (after writing my other posts). Although it might be more accurate to say "it can be either", rather than "it's both". The circumstances at the time determine whether it will be PvE or PvP content.
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
Nonsense. It's both. There's two ways to gain the shards needed to complete the mission, both of them equally valid.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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No. There are very, very few foods I dislike the taste of (I'm an epicure) but those that I don't like, I can describe in great detail exactly why I do not like them.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Doesn't an exchange like that sound entirely likely?
It's like asking someone why they don't like the taste of peanut butter. They just don't. |
I cannot imagine someone saying "I just don't like it but I don't know why". That smacks to be of them either being dishonest with me or dishonest with themselves. If we dislike something we know why.
Just sometimes, when that something involves other people, it challenges some of our ideas about ourselves, so it's uncomfortable to admit that the reason we don't like it is because of, for example, an irrational fear of losing face, of being rejected, etc.
If someone doesn't like PVP, I am sure they ALSO don't like having to run away, leave the zone, and abandon their progress on their Shivans, but they're really ready to do THAT, aren't they?
PVP, in it's current incarnation, isn't all that different from PVE except there is a real person on the other side of that "boss". It's mechanically a little different, sure, but the basic idea is the same: kill them before they kill you. Use your powers. Worst case scenario, you go back to your base WHICH IS WHERE YOU WERE ABOUT TO RUN TO ANYWAYS. So you lose absolutely nothing. The only difference between PVP and PVE that's significant in this instance is purely psychological.
The only difference between PVP and PVE is the human factor, and someone who says "I don't like PVP" is ultimately saying "I don't want to compete against other humans" and they certainly do know why they feel that way. There's a psychological reason why they want to avoid that scenario, and 9 times out of 10, it's an irrational fear.
My wife was the same way. She had no interest in PVP. I convinced her to play in RVR scenarios in WAR and before I knew it, she was bragging about killing this guy or that guy in Nordenwatch. She eventually admitted that she initially avoided PVP because she was convinced she wouldn't be any good at it, that more skillful players would just trounce her over and over and she wouldn't be effective. Turns out, she loved it.
I think most people are the same. Such extreme avoidance of PVP to the point that you'll spend several minutes fleeing to the place that another player could just send you in seconds isn't because "I don't like PVP", it's because you're afraid of losing, you're afraid of looking bad, you're afraid of losing face, and you're afraid of being ridiculed.
People run in PVP because they are afraid. No other explanation makes any sense at all. Just "I don't want to PVP and would rather leave and do something else" justifies standing still and letting the other player kill you to get you back to base faster. Even fighting back would take less time than running and you MIGHT be able to even finish what you were doing.
Running is because of fear. Period.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Did you actually read past the part you quoted? Because by my full definition, arena is PvP content. Because the point and goal of it is to engage and fight with players. Fighting players in the arena is the only way you can win and succeed.
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Originally Posted by Smurch
So, by your standard, if I set up an arena match, and I have to interact with the arena kiosk object, the arena is PVE content?
Similarly, in games where there are Capture the Flag PVP games, since winning the game involves touching an object (the enemy flag) that doesn't TECHNICALLY require fighting enemy players, obviously Capture The Flag is, in fact, a PVE mission? Is this correct? |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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But the "why" can be as simple as "It's not fun." There doesn't have to be something specific about it they dislike. The mere fact that there isn't something that they specifically DO like is enough reason to avoid it.|
Originally Posted by Smurch
No. There are very, very few foods I dislike the taste of (I'm an epicure) but those that I don't like, I can describe in great detail exactly why I do not like them.
I cannot imagine someone saying "I just don't like it but I don't know why". That smacks to be of them either being dishonest with me or dishonest with themselves. If we dislike something we know why. |
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I think most people are the same. Such extreme avoidance of PVP to the point that you'll spend several minutes fleeing to the place that another player could just send you in seconds isn't because "I don't like PVP", it's because you're afraid of losing, you're afraid of looking bad, you're afraid of losing face, and you're afraid of being ridiculed. People run in PVP because they are afraid. No other explanation makes any sense at all. Just "I don't want to PVP and would rather leave and do something else" justifies standing still and letting the other player kill you to get you back to base faster. Even fighting back would take less time than running and you MIGHT be able to even finish what you were doing. Running is because of fear. Period. |
As I posted previously in this thread from hell, I spend hundreds of hours in RV, mostly fighting pillboxes. When someone attacked me, I fought back and usually won. I knew in advance that I was making a big investment of time and that fighting back was an efficient course of action so that's what I did. I didn't find PvP fun when I started and it didn't 'grow on me'. I still don't find it fun.
Now, if I'm in Bloody Bay and get attacked, even on the same toon that can kick butt in PvP, I run. PvP isn't fun for me and running seems less inconvenient to me. It's not a simple time calculation like you and others seem to be insisting. If it's not fun, I don't CARE if it's fast or not.
And now I guess you're going to say that I'm lying to you or lying to myself, right?
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| I cannot imagine someone saying "I just don't like it but I don't know why". That smacks to be of them either being dishonest with me or dishonest with themselves. If we dislike something we know why. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I hate this topic. I always have. I've had vitriolic arguments with another over in the Protector forum over this exact issue. Oddly enough, I get the weird feeling the two of us were actually on the same side on a lot of these issues (but that didn't stop us from arguing).
Essentially, it's all boiling down to flavor. Some people like hot sauce. I don't. I like some pepper, but I don't like hot sauce.
This menu and its entrees originally came without hot sauce or pepper. First pepper was introduced, and things were a little okay, then a few flavors of hot sauce were tossed into the menu along with a whole new set of entrees. A lot of players liked the new entrees. A lot of players liked the hot sauce, too.
Many players who prefer just the entrees, though, don't like the hot sauce.
What's odd is the strange compulsion of the people who do like the hot sauce to continue rubbing it in the eyes, ears, noses and mouths of the people who don't. They behave in a manner that indicates they feel that because they like hot sauce, everybody else MUST partake in the hot sauce.
Normally, this wouldn't be an issue. The hot sauce is in only a few places on the menu and rarely ventures outside those places (this thread apparently being one of those instances). The people who don't like hot sauce can stick to occasionally adding pepper to their meal and get on with their dining experience without incident.
Then an item on the menu comes along that's a bit tricky. It doesn't require hot sauce, but it would be made significantly easier with elements on the table where the hot sauce is found as well. Enjoyers of hot sauce tend to locate the people who are now merely looking next to the hot sauce and proceed to rub hot sauce in their eyes, nose, ears and mouth.
Then we find ourselves here... After one diner decided to slap hot sauce in another player's face and got upset when the other diner ran away to wash his face off.
What could he have done differently? What could anybody do differently?
When a person is ordering a meal from a restaurant, the other diners don't have ANY say in what a diner chooses to eat. The waiter asks politely if the diner would like pepper on their meal. He doesn't proceed to dump pepper on the filet mignon if he doesn't get an answer, but he does indicate that there is pepper on the table if it is required. Salt, too. If the diner would like hot sauce, he usually asks for hot sauce.
Just because I'm grabbing some grated cheese does not mean I'm interested in hot sauce. If you rub hot sauce in my eyes, I swear to God there is going to be an unsettling.
I was not partaking of your meal. You can eat your meal however you would like. But do not infect MY meal with yours because you saw me look at the hot sauce.
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This point has been reiterated to death in this thread.
Just because I'm in the zone does not mean I'm there to fight. If you would like to fight, ask me first ("Would you like some pepper? Hot sauce?"), but if you see I'm clearly busy with something else ("This Shivan will make the STF go by much easier..."/"Mmm... Grated cheese... Why do they always put this next to the pepper flakes? God forbid I wasn't looking...") then leave me the Hell alone.
Leaving me alone does not affect your game. I'm not chasing you. I'm not interacting with you. I'm not talking to you.
Attack me, though, and you've crossed the line. There was no point to it. It was uncalled for. It was rude.
This is a game. It is not a comic book. It is not a real world. It is not a war.
This is a game, and we come here to have fun.
If your fun involves finding a player who is clearly not paying attention to you and stabbing them in the back "because you can" then you and I will have problems if we meet in-game.
I'm already dealing with enough problems fighting these damn Shivans protecting a hunk of stone, I don't need you further complicating matters with a kick to the back of my knees. Why couldn't we have had this fight somewhere there WEREN'T a group of glowing green blobs trying to eat me? They weren't eating you, you just got here!
Essentially, those of you who enjoy the zone PvP experience need to learn that, just because it's not a duel, doesn't mean etiquette is to be ignored. The fact that this has become such a LONG thread, largely arguing the same points over and over, should indicate that something needs to change! The system has been retooled (the table has been reset, with the grated cheese just a little further from the pepper flakes). The experience remains largely ignored though.
Why?
Because those of us who don't like hot sauce get it rubbed in our faces when we so much as GLANCE at it.
The ball is in your court, Zone PvPers.
My suggestion is to lay off the new diners. Let them ease into the hot sauce. They didn't come FOR the hot sauce, they came for the entrees. They want to savor their meal and not scald their tongues. However... In time, they may grow curious about how their meal will taste with hot sauce... That is, if the memory of it being rubbed in their eyes, nose, ears and mouth has faded from their minds.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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So, if you're saying that:|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Now, if I'm in Bloody Bay and get attacked, even on the same toon that can kick butt in PvP, I run. PvP isn't fun for me and running seems less inconvenient to me. It's not a simple time calculation like you and others seem to be insisting. If it's not fun, I don't CARE if it's fast or not.
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PVP is not fun
BUT
Running AWAY from PVP IS Fun.
Correct?
Because if you're NOT saying that, then what you said is illogical and nonsensical.
If the choice is:
Do something Fun
Do something NOT fun
Obviously pick the fun one.
But if the choice is
Do something not fun for 1 minute
Do something not fun for 2.5 minutes,
the only reason to pick doing the "not fun" option for longer is if there is another psychological influence attached to THAT kind of not-fun as opposed to the first kind of "not-fun". That is, if given a chance to do something un-fun or something un-fun that'd take even longer to do, the only rational choice is to get the not-fun over as quickly as possible.
So, yes, it IS a simple time calculation. The reason people run isn't to avoid an un-fun situation. It's to RUN FROM PVP. Which I doubt they're finding fun (or they'd come back again and again for more opportunities to run away instead of leaving the zone). The reason they run is because they find the prospect of LOSING at PVP to be threatening on some level beyond "it's not fun".
If they didn't, if they were behaving rationally, they'd pick the option that would get the "not fun" part over the fastest. To do otherwise suggests that they're either gluttons for punishment or that there is some other motivation at work other than "it's not fun". If you want to argue the former, I won't stop you.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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The difference, I think, between the instanced battleground model and the open zone with objectives model is the implied assumption that the player has gone into the instanced battleground specifically TO pvp. When the ultimate reward for the player is something that essentially enhances the pve experience, rather than essentially enhances the pvp experience, you are always going to see people who go in to get the pve objective and then leave if they have to pvp to get it because they can always come back later when they won't have to do that.
If you go into Alterac Valley, there is no particular reason to be there other than to engage in the pvp experience. If you go into any of the CoH zones, there is definitely a reason to be there other than to do so.
I think by concentrating the people who want to engage in the pvp experience together rather than creating an environment where you mish-mash different playing styles together, you create a more enjoyable experience for everyone, no matter the playing style.
Part of the issue when it comes to this, with this game, is that PVP wasn't here from the beginning. That attracted many people. Hell, TBH it's part of what I liked, having come from bad PVP experiences elsewhere (non-MMO, things like diablo and a string of thoroughly unenjoyable UT/UT2k4 experiences.) I didn't bother with the arenas - specifically that "concentrate people with no other reason to be there" experience - when they came out.
The zones, however, DID serve their purpose as an introduction to PVP to PVEers, getting people who wouldn't have touched it otherwise into the zones. In that, at least initially, they were indeed successful - I do, after all, PVP casually (I have no 'PVP builds,' characters designed for it, not part of a PVP SG, etc.) And I know between them and guides I've written, others have been introduced that wouldn't have touched PVP before. I know because they've PMd me and told me directly they weren't interested before, but decided to try PVP out and liked it.
However - Between the I13 changes and - IMHO, again - what some of the SSK mechanics did to PVP zone levels and power differences, at least for the early zones, they are broken.
For me, these days - yes, I'll still look for a fight in the zones. But most of my PVP jonesing is filled with Aion, which - again - has both sorts of experience. The Abyss is purely (well, "nearly purely") PVP. It's risk of PVP, 24/7. (Yes, it's PVPVE - perhaps we should start using that label for our zones.) And after certain levels, rifts can take players between Elyos and Asmodae, but in limited numbers (limited uses and levels,) and there are missions that specifically call for you to *go* to the other side. Yes, they could - if you're lucky - be purely PVE missions (I have, for instance, one to deliver a bundle of spy orders to an NPC, another to kill some specific animals found only on the other side, and a third to talk to some NPC) but the chance of actually DOING them without having to fight is exceedingly small. It's got more of a mix (and better balance - which IMHO comes from fewer, less specialized classes, since our 14 with multiple powersets... oy...)
In any case, honestly they have both. Concentrated in a mostly-PVP-based area, as well as "run through an open zone to do an objective." And IMHO they pull it off rather well, without what sounds like that battleground-style instance. So it can be done.