What Are Heroes Running FROM?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-11 09:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Just because I've walked into the House of Pain doesn't mean I'm there to get whomped on the butt with a paddle.
I could just be there to see how a friend is doing.
I'm not forcing my experience or my playstyle on you. You're forcing yours on me. You're interrupting my game. You're interfering with my fun.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Ok, how about a classic Capture the Flag scenario found in many games (which I mentioned and you ignored). Lets talk hypothetically. The set up of these games is this: Two opposing teams of players are plopped into a zone. The goal of each team is to capture the other team's flag. That's all they need to do to win: Capture the other team's flag.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Did you actually read past the part you quoted? Because by my full definition, arena is PvP content. Because the point and goal of it is to engage and fight with players. Fighting players in the arena is the only way you can win and succeed.
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Both teams have the ability and incentive to attack and defeat each other (to protect their own flag or get rid of people protecting the opposite flag).
Now, it's possible to win the match without actually fighting the other side.
Is this a PVP mission or not, by your definition?
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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This kind of weird analogy doesn't quite work because it's severely incomplete.|
Originally Posted by Smurch
If you don't like Hot sauce, then I suggest you don't go to the House of Hotsauce to eat then complain because there's hotsauce on everything.
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There are things in PvP zones that are not related to PvP, but people want to obtain (usually for non-PvP purposes). Things like badges, plaques, and temp powers. You can of course play the game without these things, but telling people they can't have a couple accolades and various powerful temps unless they're forced to do something they don't want to do is pretty crappy.
In your analogy it would be like if someone just got a car and couldn't have an air conditioner or power windows unless they go into House of Hotsauce. Yeah they can get away with it, but it's pretty jerkish to lure them into something they don't want to do just to get stuff they should be able to have.
Additionally, if you go into House of Hotsauce, you're still able to just not buy anything. Not so with a PvP zone. In a PvP zone, someone runs up to you and FORCES you to chug hotsauce. There's no waiter, or a menu, and nobody saying "It's all got hotsauce; is that cool?" No, you're forced to chug hotsauce as soon as you walk in the door. And then people go "Haha, if you don't want hotsauce, why'd you come in?"
So yeah, it'd be great if I didn't have to go into this physically abusive restaurant to get the stuff for my car, but I don't have a choice. So my options are either to go sit in my hot car, or be forced to chug hotsauce. I can see how I might feel like complaining about the situation.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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No, that's entirely wrong. You're entering a consensual PVP zone. You were warned at least three times when you entered that you WILL be attacked by other players and if you do not want to be attacked you should leave. You stayed. You therefore CONSENTED TO PVP both implicitly and explicitly.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Just because I've walked into the House of Pain doesn't mean I'm there to get whomped on the butt with a paddle.
I could just be there to see how a friend is doing. I'm not forcing my experience or my playstyle on you. You're forcing yours on me. You're interrupting my game. You're interfering with my fun. |
It's like going to a rock concert then complaining to the manager about the noise, because the band on stage is interfering with your conversation.
You can do PVE in any non-PVP zone.
You can visit your friend in any Co-op zone.
You do not come into a PVP zone, where PVP is enabled, then complain when people engage you in PVP claiming their "forcing their fun" on you. You CONSENTED to their fun. Your complaining after the fact is demanding that the PVP zone be re-classifed JUST FOR YOU because you're a special snowflake who must be catered to.
If you enter a PVP zone, you're open game. If you disagree with this, then go ahead an petition a GM when you get attacked in a PVP zone and claim someone is harassing you. Let me know how long it takes for the GM to stop laughing at you.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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It wasn't my analogy. I was working with what I was given.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
This kind of weird analogy doesn't quite work because it's severely incomplete.
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| Things like badges, plaques, and temp powers. You can of course play the game without these things, but telling people they can't have a couple accolades and various powerful temps unless they're forced to do something they don't want to do is pretty crappy. |
Do you feel this same sense of entitlement?
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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To further clarify (many thanks, Dispari, I was having trouble coming up with the right words), my point is that this is NOT the House of Hot Sauce.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
This kind of weird analogy doesn't quite work because it's severely incomplete.
There are things in PvP zones that are not related to PvP, but people want to obtain (usually for non-PvP purposes). Things like badges, plaques, and temp powers. You can of course play the game without these things, but telling people they can't have a couple accolades and various powerful temps unless they're forced to do something they don't want to do is pretty crappy. In your analogy it would be like if someone just got a car and couldn't have an air conditioner or power windows unless they go into House of Hotsauce. Yeah they can get away with it, but it's pretty jerkish to lure them into something they don't want to do just to get stuff they should be able to have. Additionally, if you go into House of Hotsauce, you're still able to just not buy anything. Not so with a PvP zone. In a PvP zone, someone runs up to you and FORCES you to chug hotsauce. There's no waiter, or a menu, and nobody saying "It's all got hotsauce; is that cool?" No, you're forced to chug hotsauce as soon as you walk in the door. And then people go "Haha, if you don't want hotsauce, why'd you come in?" So yeah, it'd be great if I didn't have to go into this physically abusive restaurant to get the stuff for my car, but I don't have a choice. So my options are either to go sit in my hot car, or be forced to chug hotsauce. I can see how I might feel like complaining about the situation. |
The entire game itself is the restaurant. This is In Front Steakhouse.
The PVP Zone is the portion of your table that has hot sauce, pepper flakes, sugar and salt packets, ketchup, mustard and the tasty, tasty grated cheese (Mm-mm... Temp Powers and Accolades).
The PVP Zone experience is an extremely SMALL portion of the game. It can be utterly ignored (and often is). The reasons why have been hashed and rehashed. The growing agitation I'm seeing indicates that a lot of you Zone PvPers see these problems and don't know how to deal with them.
It's simple. Stop rubbing hot sauce on the new patrons. Ask if they would like hot sauce.
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| It wasn't my analogy. I was working with what I was given. |
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Do you feel that someone who enters a consensual PVP zone has an implicit right to NOT be attacked by the opposing side? Because that's what the guy I was responding to said: that if he's not there to PVP, he has a RIGHT to expect that other people won't attack him even if he's standing out in the open. In a PVP zone. Do you feel this same sense of entitlement? |
We also don't really have to go there. You guys complain again and again that you dislike how empty the PvP Zones are. We've told you why they are. Don't like the fact that we're telling you to be more polite? Tough.
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I'm going to get yelled at for this because I've seen others who were yelled at for it.
We should have "PVP On" and "PVP Off" flags. It would put an end to all of this in an instant.
We'd get "Why was this guy running around in a PVP Zone without his PVP Flag set to on?" threads, but hey, that's an easier issue to ignore as opposed to the deep, aggravating sociological pontification we have throughout the rest of this thread.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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So's an AC. |
Originally Posted by Smurch
None of which, I might add, are in any way required for you to play or succeed in PVE whatsoever. They are, at best, conveniences.
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And I know they aren't required, and even mentioned that. It's still a jerk move to put those things in PvP zones, and even worse to tell people to just avoid those zones and that they can't have those things.Quote:
| Air conditioning is like 1 million times more important to driving a car than shivans are to playing CoX. I've had shivans on exactly one character and never once missed them. My AC broke on my car once and I seriously missed that. |
And yeah, I live in Texas. Going without an AC would be awful. But it's still just a convenience. You can live without an AC. You'd just be hot and sweaty all the time (it's hot about 13 months out of the year in Texas). So try telling a villain they should just deal with not having +5% HP and +10 end by not going to a PvP zone. Yeah, it's a convenience. But one that everyone should be able to get. People who are wanting to do high-end content would benefit a lot from that stuff, so "just don't visit PvP zones" isn't practical.
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| Do you feel that someone who enters a consensual PVP zone has an implicit right to NOT be attacked by the opposing side? Because that's what the guy I was responding to said: that if he's not there to PVP, he has a RIGHT to expect that other people won't attack him even if he's standing out in the open. In a PVP zone. |
I don't think he should expect people not to attack him. He's there to get badges or whatever. Someone else is there to PvP. But that PvPer also can't complain when I pop purples, ignore him, and laugh at his broadcast mocks. If he doesn't care what I'm up to and wants to force me to PvP, then I don't care what he's up to and will not submit to his will. I'm here for badges or shivans or whatever, and he can go jump a cliff.
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| Do you feel this same sense of entitlement? |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Why do some people love horror movies and others don't? Why do some people adore romances and others despise that genre? Why do I like Mac&Cheese and my brother can't stand it?|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Actually, no, that isn't my original argument, by any stretch of the imagination. In no sense whatsoever did I either say or even imply that you have to fight back (case #1) or that you have to attack a target you could two-shot or maybe three-shot kill from outside their attack range (case #2). What I asked, precisely and in as many words, was, "why wouldn't you?" And more precisely, what do you gain from running away to the base and exiting the zone that you wouldn't gain more quickly and more efficiently by just fighting them, win or lose?
And all that anybody can tell me that they gain when they do this is "I didn't PvP." OK. That's what, not why. Why is that so important? Seven humanoid mobs on the screen, one of which has a player behind the controls; why is it such an unimaginably awful thing that you'd give up on getting the Shivan, give up on whatever other badge you were there for, flee the zone altogether, rather than tab over to them and push a few buttons? "I don't want to." OK, I understood that as soon as they fled the zone. I didn't ask if they wanted to or not, I asked why not? "Because it's not fun" is an unresponsive answer; it doesn't explain what part of it is unfun or non-fun or anti-fun. By superspeeding away or stealthing up and flying away you've already decided not to have fun, you've given up for now on the fun you came to the zone to get. I'm asking about your plan B after your plan A (do whatever without seeing another player) has fallen through. Why is running away less unfun than either winning or losing? Some people have answered with things that they're actually afraid would happen, thank you. But even those left me scratching my head. Someone was afraid that they might hit the other person a few times and the person they hit would leave. Didn't you want them to leave, in the first place? Someone else was afraid that if they turned and fought, three or six or however many other people would materialize out of nowhere and fight them. If they were going to do that, wouldn't they have done that at the start of the fight, aren't you worrying about something that obviously isn't going to happen? Someone else was worried that they'd turn out to suck at PvP and lose, but they didn't explain why getting sent to the hospital that way is more painful or unpleasant or humiliating than going to (or by) the hospital the longer, slower way of running away. Which leaves it at "if I don't run away, I might fight another player, and that would be bad." And I remain as baffled as I ever was as to why that's so intolerable, so awful, that people would give up on what they obviously already wanted to do rather than risk it. *shrug* If I don't get an answer I can understand soon, I'll drop it and go back to thinking of it as one of life's mysteries. |
Why are you unable to understand the simple fact that PvP will not appeal to everyone?
Is that enough questions for you to ponder the meanings of, or do you want me to find your answers for you? I'd even be generous and start with the last question first. I can gaurantee that you wouldn't like the answer.
I don't like PvP because of experiences that I have had in various PvP zones in CoH. Generally, being out numbered and repeatedly defeated when I never stood a chance. IE: Being AS'd by, not one, but two Stalkers while I was at half health in the middle of a fight with a group of Arachnoids in Warburg. I find that not fun.
I also find not fun, chasing some shmuck, who thought it would be fun to annoy me in RV, all over the freakin zone because he realized that maybe it wasn't such a great idea to take on a Robots/Traps Mastermind using a heavy to attack a pillbox. Only to experience him coming back a little later and do the same exact thing again.
Yet another thing I find not fun is getting dogpiled by half a dozen characters while I'm minding my own business attempting to get a Shivan Shard.
The only time I have even a hint of a pleasurable experience in a PvP zone was when I had taken a Pillbox in RV with my level 50 Ill/FF Controller and was promptly jumped by 5 villains. I managed to run them off and defeated 2 of them with the help of the pillbox itself. But, that wasn't enough of a "fun" expeience to counter the other dozen negative experiences that I've had in PvP zones in this game alone, not to mention all of the other MMOs that I've played that had PvP in them.
I am not afraid of getting defeated in PvP. I have PvP'd on occasion. Very rarely has it been anything remotely akin to a fair fight in my favor. Much less me overpowering them.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Great minds thinking alike AT THE SAME TIME! | Really there ought to be a PvP flag (which you can't toggle on/off while inside the zone). |
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Good for you.|
Originally Posted by Smurch
No. There are very, very few foods I dislike the taste of (I'm an epicure) but those that I don't like, I can describe in great detail exactly why I do not like them.
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| I cannot imagine someone saying "I just don't like it but I don't know why". |
*FACEPALM*
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| That smacks to be of them either being dishonest with me or dishonest with themselves. If we dislike something we know why. |
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| Just sometimes, when that something involves other people, it challenges some of our ideas about ourselves, so it's uncomfortable to admit that the reason we don't like it is because of, for example, an irrational fear of losing face, of being rejected, etc. |
Not saying that all zone PVP'ers are jerkoffs. However, the jerkoffs have, unfortunately, defined the reputation that seems so firmly entrenched in people's minds.
Also, part of it comes down to OVERT consent. Simply entering the zone is a form of passive consent. But a lot of PVE'ers aren't really looking for PVP.
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| If someone doesn't like PVP, I am sure they ALSO don't like having to run away, leave the zone, and abandon their progress on their Shivans, but they're really ready to do THAT, aren't they? |
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| PVP, in it's current incarnation, isn't all that different from PVE except there is a real person on the other side of that "boss". It's mechanically a little different, sure, but the basic idea is the same: kill them before they kill you. Use your powers. |
And trying to simplify it down to "kill them before they kill you" is the worst form of dishonesty.
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| Worst case scenario, you go back to your base WHICH IS WHERE YOU WERE ABOUT TO RUN TO ANYWAYS. So you lose absolutely nothing. |
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| The only difference between PVP and PVE that's significant in this instance is purely psychological. |
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| The only difference between PVP and PVE is the human factor, and someone who says "I don't like PVP" is ultimately saying "I don't want to compete against other humans" and they certainly do know why they feel that way. There's a psychological reason why they want to avoid that scenario, and 9 times out of 10, it's an irrational fear. |
And labeling people who don't wish to PVP as both irrational and fearful.
*Le Sigh*
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| My wife was the same way. |
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| I think most people are the same. |
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| Such extreme avoidance of PVP to the point that you'll spend several minutes fleeing to the place that another player could just send you in seconds isn't because "I don't like PVP", it's because you're afraid of losing, you're afraid of looking bad, you're afraid of losing face, and you're afraid of being ridiculed. |
It's not about the speed of getting to the base. It's the desire not to waste time on an activity they have no interest in. And, again, comes back to overt consent.
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| People run in PVP because they are afraid. |
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| No other explanation makes any sense at all. |
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| Running is because of fear. Period. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Wrong. Try again.|
Originally Posted by Smurch
So, if you're saying that:
PVP is not fun BUT Running AWAY from PVP IS Fun. Correct? |
PVP is not fun, so the person is doing their level best simply to avoid an activity that isn't fun. The equation isn't binary. It's not simply one or the other. Stop assuming it is.
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| Because if you're NOT saying that, then what you said is illogical and nonsensical. |
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If the choice is: Do something Fun Do something NOT fun |
Until you can understand this concept, there's really nothing else to talk about.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Again, no. It's not.|
Originally Posted by Smurch
No, that's entirely wrong.
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| You're entering a consensual PVP zone. |
You give tacit consent to the POSSIBILITY of being attacked.
What you do not OVERTLY consent to is the certainty having to actually engage in PVP combat.
Running is still a valid response.
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| You were warned at least three times when you entered that you WILL be attacked by other players |
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| You therefore CONSENTED TO PVP both implicitly and explicitly. |
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| You do not come into a PVP zone, where PVP is enabled, then complain when people engage you in PVP claiming their "forcing their fun" on you. |
Screw you. Don't tell me how or where to play a game I pay to play.
Simple enough? I even kept in monosyllabic for you.
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| You CONSENTED to their fun. |
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| If you enter a PVP zone, you're open game. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Now the flip side. Do you feel that someone who comes into a consensual PVP zone has the implicit right to be a jerk and dog someone is overtly not fighting back and doing everything they can just to escape?
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Originally Posted by Smurch
Do you feel that someone who enters a consensual PVP zone has an implicit right to NOT be attacked by the opposing side?
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Actually since when did running in PvP not become a valid tactic.
I've had some grand chases through RV using Superspeed/Superjump to catch another person with the same powers back before Issue 13.
Hell I specced into teleport foe and caltrops just to cheese runners off or to assure my getaway was all the sweeter.
Then Issue 13 came along and caltrops might as well have not existed since they did sweet FA to actually slow someone down...
Alright can someone show me the numbers of people who PvP? I mean really hardcore PvP at this point, factoring into arenas and zones?
Because at this point I'm probably willing to bet that after the 'Issue 13 debacle' torked off a lot of the old school PvPers we're probably down to 1% of the population actually going into PvP zones to use it for their intended purpose. PvP just wasn't meant to be in this game, it was really nice and all, the devs tried (sort of) and now it might as well be ushered off to the gaming concepts in the sky.
Keep the arenas but convert the zones into co-op style zones but both Villains and Heroes get different contacts and storylines, Shivans and nukes are rewarded for completing a repeatable storyline that takes about the same length of time it would have taken to get them in the old school PvP enviroment.
Sure the Shivans and the nukes get toned down but eh...it's no great loss to anyone.
[The above post has sprung from a deranged mind, all it's contents may or may not be sarcastic or merely thinking outloud, all numbers held within the post are pulled out of thin air and as such should not be construed as actual statistics...]
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This describes perfectly my thoughts and feelings whenever I'm attacked in a pvP zone whilst i'm getting Shivans or temp nukes or badging. Even on my 50, i don't bother to analyze my attacker to see if I've got a cvhance, because i don't want to PvP. If someone came up to me in a bar and asked my to play tic-tac-toe, and I could have the first move, I'd decline as well, even though it'd be a certain win or draw. I'm not interested.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
I think you're misunderstanding the mindset involved here.
Many, many people just *don't like PvP*. They've had bad experiences with it, had bad experiences with PvPers, or just flat out aren't interested. Since they don't PvP, they don't build their characters for it, don't know the strategies and tactics involved in playing in PvP, and have effectively no PvP experience. For many, the sum total of PvP experience they have is of getting ganked repeatedly the one time they stepped foot into a zone. They don't know that you're 10 levels lower than them (if they target you, all they'll see is the 25 the zone exemps/SKs you to - many people don't know about using /whoall to find actual levels). They don't know that you're not a 'hardcore PvPer' who's going to chase them around the zone and kill them until they get frustrated and log off. They don't know that it's a fight they practically can't lose (and I'm not exactly sure it would be, either). All they know is that a villain just popped out next to them (or appeared on their screen, either way), and in their experience that is usually followed by dying, over and over. Running away is a quite sensible action, from their perspective. They're not thinking 'ok, I'll fight this guy, even if I lose, I'll be out only a minute or two'. They're thinking 'oh crap, the PvPers are here, I'm about to die over and over for the next hour or so'. Remember, they have no way of knowing your level, what you're slotted with, your PvP experience or skills, or how many of you are out there. By far the most common thing to happen in that case is that said villain will be a PvPer who will kill them over and over again until they leave - in their experience, anyway. From that perspective, they don't think they have any chance of winning, they don't think they have any chance of accomplishing what they came to do while you're there, and so they might as well go do something else until you leave. |
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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QR
I'm mainly a Villain-player, and I only really hang around BB as for PvP zones. And for some reason, the Villains always have the upper hands in there, 1o1-wise.
I've had more than one situation where I'd get something smacked in my face a few times without taking much damage, then hit back once or twice and chomp off a third or half of the Hero's hp.
I don't chase though, rather like to make a "JOO DARE CHALLANJ MEH" scene out of it~
@MidnightGuard - on Union you may know me as:
Mr. Vile - Electroman X - Zenodorus - Battler
Naga Knight - Stinkspitter
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This is an interesting point. If I'm attacked and my mindset is 'I'm going to be killed, so i'll leave', why not just stand there (or rest, to speed things up) and turn my toggles off and then get a 'free tp' to the longbow base, rather than the slower route of going there myself? I can think of one reason. Perhaps the person leaving feels a bit annoyed at the PvPer who's initiated this situation, and so wants to deprive him of the satisfaction of a kill?|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Look, I'm not trying to troll here; I really am baffled. What I'm seeing is inexplicable to me, it's unimaginable the lengths I see people go to to avoid playing a game that they pay $15 a month to play. OK, I know what somebody's going to say to that: I don't pay to play that particular part of the game. So, okay, a fight threatens to break out and you run back to the base, passing the hospital on your way to the helicopter out. What did you just save? If the absolute worst had happened, if I were secretly on a level 50 fully kitted out with PvP and purple IOs and backed up by a covert strike squad of 25 other hidden stalkers, what can we do to you? Send you to the Longbow base you were already fleeing to, only faster. Taking the slower, scenic route to the helicopter out is that preferable to you? Why?
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Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Originally Posted by Seldom
To the OP: if you want an "RP PvP" scenario, you should have behaved as such. (I assume you are, as you asked why a hero runs, not why a player makes their character leave.)
Challenge the hero in an RP way. Whisper behind them. Do stuff in character, they may play along. I they send a response like "I don't PvP" then they aren't into it. The issue, I think, with PvP is this: you say that, and the idea of a min/maxed character who play to win comes to mind. They don't go into character as much as pick fights. You can circumvent this assumption about you by showing that you're just interested in a fight, not pwning them. If a stalker pop up behind me and whispers "Aha, hero, you've fallen into my clutches!" I might play along for the heck of it. If someone simply comes by stabbing me in the back, I have no frame of reference, other than that I'm being stabbed. ....and when a player says something like "Run, noob, like the coward you are!" they're not being fun about it, and I'd have no interest in engaging in a fight with them. |
Well said. I wish this would happen. Even once, would be nice.
RPPvP? I just can't see it, sadly.
Eco
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Arent'; you reading any of the replies to your questions here? It's already been pointed out that NOT EVERYONE BOTHERS TO CHECK OUT AN ATTACKERS LEVEL.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
I'm asking why, when confronted with a visibly obviously pathetically weak opponent, one no more dangerous to them than a +1 minion (because in both of the examples in the original posting, that is all I was, really, to them), they'd choose that moment to decide that they didn't want to PvP?
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If i get ASed, I immediately assume i'm going to lose the fight, and coupled with my default attitude of NOT WANTING TO PVP ANYWAY, I leave. If you get the hint and stop attacking me, then i'll stop running and maybe we can agree in /local to go our separate ways. If not, then either I make it to safety and you don't get a kill, or you kill me.
I can't see why it's so hard to understand.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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This is my attitude too.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
For a PvEer successfully disengaging from a PvPer (especially if you don't leave the zone) is a victory.
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Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Quote:
I'd probably farm this with an other-faction friend. Just stand there, we swap damage for a while, then one of us kills the other one, then repeat for the other party. It sounds like it'd be quicker than the current Shivan method, too. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
OK.Edit:
So, let's redesign this to be a purely PVP mission, that cannot be completed without PVP, and has no PVE interaction (no, clicking on an NPC or glowie does not count, there is no "versus" - which implies opposition - involved there.) What in the mission now is PVE - environment resisting and threatening (versus) you, unavoidable conflict? The turrets. I can get (and typically do) the shards without fighting anything or risking being attacked by the environment. (Jetpack, hover at 65 feet, the shivans often won't even come out. Yes, even at the meteor hidden under the trees.) So how do we purify this mission to be strictly PVP? 1. It is unavailable if there is nobody from the other side in the game. It requires PVP to finish. 2. The firebases are completely locked down. In order to unlock them, there are no turrets - every opposing player, on defeat, releases a key. Only one is needed to enter a firebase (renamed bunker.) Teleporting is disabled. 3. Keys cannot be kept. They cannot be traded, stored, sold, or acquired in any way other than by defeating another player. 4. Bunkers will only let one player in at a time. The player must have their own key. The bunker relocks immediately after a player enters and finishes. 5. Players with keys must have taken at least X% damage from an opposing player. Confused same-side players do not count. (enter RP reason about "blood is required to activate the key.") This is to prevent someone just standing around to get killed. Does that sound Fun? Does that sound like anybody whatsoever would bother? Or does it sound like it'd sabotage the zone, reducing population further? |
I think this would lead to Shivans being nerfed, because it seems to me that PvPers aren't pvPing in order to get SHivans, they're pvPing because they like to PvP. In contrast, they folks who want the Shivans are predominantly people who don't like to PvP, so unless the Devs found a way of eliminating the 'kill me please' method, the risk would be much lower than the current PvE-involved one. Doing the current Shivan run takes me about ten minutes on aferage, I'd say, which is ten minutes I run the trisk of PvP. Your way could take, what, a minute?
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Quote:
This. If I deign to head to Bloody Bay for a Shivan, that's what I'm there for, and only that. If I get attacked, I get attacked. But I'm not obligated to fight back or stand still. |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
This is an interesting point. If I'm attacked and my mindset is 'I'm going to be killed, so i'll leave', why not just stand there (or rest, to speed things up) and turn my toggles off and then get a 'free tp' to the longbow base, rather than the slower route of going there myself? I can think of one reason. Perhaps the person leaving feels a bit annoyed at the PvPer who's initiated this situation, and so wants to deprive him of the satisfaction of a kill?
Eco. |
It's not that running away is a valid tactic in PVP - it's more of a valid response to being attacked by a PVPer. If I'm in the zone for a Shivan and I get attacked, I flee because it's the most beneficial course of action for me. The fact that I deprive the attacker of a kill if I can successfully escape is icing on the cake.
So to the guy who asserted that running = fear, far from it. Running means survival, the path of least inconvenience, and spite.
Storm Summoning is great because it makes you better than everyone else in the game. - Camma
Knockback is mitigation. It won't be removed just because meleers ***** and moan. - Chaos Creator
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OK, should have written it more explicitly: you can still complete the mission by starting it over. I meant it in the way that even if someone steals the shards from you, the mission can be restarted, which just adds more time to the task at hand, but does not in any way hinder the fact that it can still be completed regardless of other people interfering with you.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Please check your facts before making statements. If you are defeated, you lose your shard/code. Therefore, if you are defeated, you CANNOT complete the mission, and must start over.
If you defeat someone else DOING the mission, you are farther ahead on your own - you have advanced via PVP. |
Thanks for the reply anyway.
Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit
Oh man, this thread.
The PVP Zones are just that: PVP Zones.
The Warzone Liaison, the mission text, and the GIANT COUNT DOWN WITH THE BIG BWOOPING NOISE all tell you that if you enter here you WILL get attacked by other players. It's false advertising, because you might not be attacked, but that's what the text says. You come here, other players will attack you.
And you went anyways.
And someone attacked you.
And you have the chutzpah to COMPLAIN about it?
That takes some serious nerve!
It's like going to the House of Hotsauce then yelling in the face of the staff for shoving hotsauce in your face, when you READ THE SIGN and came in anyways. It'd be like going to a Hookah bar then complaining about second hand smoke, or going to an Indian restaurant and complaining because they won't serve you a hamburger. It's irrational, and it shows a disturbing sense of self-importance, that the rest of the world should re-align itself to appease YOU.
If you get attacked in a PVP zone, it's YOUR fault. You do not have a right to Shivans. You do not have a right to run around a PVP zone and expect everyone to respect your boundaries. You have one expectation in a PVP zone: Other players will attack you if they see you. If you don't like that particular Hot Sauce, then go somewhere where the menu is more to your liking, like all the rest of the zones in the game. But don't show up at the House of Hotsauce and scream at the patrons there how they're forcing hotsauce on you. Go to the House of Plain Vanilla if you prefer. No one will stop you. Heck, I might even see you there. I only go out for Hotsauce every once in a while, myself. When I'm not in the mood for it, I don't seek it out. Because if I do seek it out, and it's not to my liking, it's no one's fault but mine.