What Are Heroes Running FROM?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-12-11 09:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The point of PvP is not griefing. The point of PvE missions in a PvP zone is partly what you would consider griefing.
Ideally, PvP would always take place between people that were intending to PvP. But so long as there is something of benefit to a PvE player in a PvP zone (even if it were just pretty scenery), there would be people who would be lured in and essentially victimized.
I wonder: If Shivan shards (for example) were tradeable, would that help? Then PvE'ers could steer clear of PvP zones and just send in friends or hirelings who were PvPers, or just buy them from the market.
Of course, then you would need something else to give people who are 'PvP curious' but shy an incentive to try it out.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I should clarify that at the time, such rewards actually WEREN'T implemented yet. Possibly reputation, but that's all beside the point.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Well, there is reason. Yes, you are there. Yes, it's a PVP zone. They also get rep, and a chance at an IO drop (as well as inf/prestige, or possible salvage and insps.)
Why do you stop and kill random mobs on the streets of Paragon? They're an enemy, you're rewarded for defeating them. Why should you (an enemy to that stalker) be any different in a PVP zone? You were a target of opportunity with an attached reward. |
You're basically advocating a player attacking people who clearly have no intention of fighting back. I had explained I wasn't there to fight, and yet I was still attacked.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Attacking the enemy in a PvP zone with the express purpose of preventing them from acheiving a PvE goal in that zone is not griefing. It's kind of the point.
Asking them to stop is a valid action; but they can refuse and that is also valid. It would be NICE of them to stop, but (sadly) the main reason those PvE goals are there is so that you will enter a PvP zone and get attacked (and hopefully discover a new world of exciting fun in the process). |
We've been over this: Just because we're in the zone does not mean we're there to play YOUR game, and the fact that you're trying to drag us into it is doing nothing to help your reputation.
Again, talk to us. Invite us to play. Memphis, you're telling us to stop with the "Assumption" game, yet you're advocating it on the other side of the equation.
Don't assume that because we're in your playground you get to push us off the slide.
Just because we're sampling the hot sauce doesn't mean we want it splashed all over our food.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Mmmm, hot sauce...
But here's the deal.
No one wants to put hot sauce on your grated cheese. Real PvP hounds want to fight other PvP'ers, not unsuspecting, unprepared PvE'ers who are no fun to fight.
However, PvE'ers (dedicated PvE 'ers who have no intention of PvP) take it upon themselves to enter PvP zones. I'll go ahead and say it: they shouldn't. PvP zones are expressly put there for PvP and for those who are interested in checking out PvP. The PvE content there is a LURE. Grated cheese in a hot sauce mousetrap.
I guess the Shivan Meteors are doing their job...
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I disagree with this declaration. Throughout this entire thread, and even in some of my own statements, are examples of PvPers who are CLEARLY assaulting players who don't fight back or are not fighting them. They're not inspiring their victims to become opponents, they're inspiring their victims to simply avoid the experience altogether.| No one wants to put hot sauce on your grated cheese. Real PvP hounds want to fight other PvP'ers, not unsuspecting, unprepared PvE'ers who are no fun to fight. |
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| However, PvE'ers (dedicated PvE 'ers who have no intention of PvP) take it upon themselves to enter PvP zones. |
Dedicated PvE'ers who have no need of PvP nor a need of items in the PvP Zones already ignore them. They don't wind up in these places, normally. They may accidentally wind up in there as a course of curiosity. If they get ambushed in the course of exploring this new experience by an unapologetic and noncommunicative PvPer, how would you expect them to react?
I would assume that four out of five times, they'll simply leave and never come back.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Right. There may be some people who like fair fights and strive for them. I see claims of such on the forums and I have no reason to doubt it. However...over the years, in many different games, the majority of PVP people strive for every conceivable advantage, and ONLY fight when they are sure of a lopsided crushing. In many games, outright cheating is the norm to ensure victory (Diablo II, anyone?) Undoubtedly most of the people you see fleeing from PVP in the zones are used to exactly that model.|
Originally Posted by Godpants
I think the assumption is that nobody would start a fight without a reasonable expectation that he or she could win.* The aggressor in PvP has the advantage, in my opinion, especially if the the target was unprepared or distracted.
*This may be assuming too much. I've seen some boneheadedly suicidal behavior in PvP zones. |
Based on longstanding statistical experience, they'd be fools or worse to even attempt to make a stand. Immediate flight is the only option -- even if it has a low chance of escape, that's all you've got in the vast bulk of PVP situations across all games and game platforms.
There's little penalty for being defeated in COH/COV, perhaps; but universally (in most players' experience of PVP) there's the likelihood of some testosterone-drenched juvenile teabagging you. No one wants to experience that.
And so you have a world where non-PVPers will not stand and fight. It is a wolrd the PVP community itself made. It is a world the PVP community itself wants.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
If you don't want to get shot in the face don't play Russian Roulette.
If you get upset in any way with other players attacking you don't go to PvP zones.
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I swear to GOD! I thought my toggles were up!
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Originally Posted by Godpants
*This may be assuming too much. I've seen some boneheadedly suicidal behavior in PvP zones.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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PvP isn't Russian Roulette. You do your and all the arguments associated with your stance a disservice with such a grossly misappropriated analogy.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
If you don't want to get shot in the face don't play Russian Roulette.
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| If you get upset in any way with other players attacking you don't go to PvP zones. |
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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It's not a playground it's a battle ground.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
PvP isn't Russian Roulette. You do your and all the arguments associated with your stance a disservice with such a grossly misappropriated analogy.
I see no reason to let the bullies run the playground. |
This isn't recess it's deathmatch.
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We've been over this. This isn't war, it's a game.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
It's not a playground it's a battle ground.
This isn't recess it's deathmatch. |
Roleplay PVP has already been soundly rejected.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Really, not a war...cause I thought Bloody Bay had two military outposts full of soldiers ready to swarm each other at the first sign of trouble.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
We've been over this. This isn't war, it's a game.
Roleplay PVP has already been soundly rejected. |
--edit--
Someone died in PvP. True story.
Reading this topic has actually made me want to PvP some of the posters here. Wanna fight about it? 
In the abyss in Aion you are in a PvP zone, but can expressly choose to do only PvE missions which involve you killing NPCs. There is a greater reward to do this. However, you are also a reward to any hunting party that might happen to stop by. It's annoying to get ganked when you're trying to do something besides PvP. It's even more annoying if the other side has complete control over the very area you'd like to be. I suppose I should just ask them nicely to let me go finish my NPC missions there then.
It's why I think Aion toting the acronym "PvPve" is nothing new to MMOs.
In Aion, if I wanted to do a PvE mission in a PvP zone where Elyos controlled that reagion, I had to find some friends to go drive off those self-righteous Elyos. Then a few hours later, I'd join my legion and go camp the starting area and we would kill Elyos by the hundreds. Was my behavior griefing because I kept those Ellies from doing their missions? Hardly. I never was banned, and I did this nearly every evening for a week.
This topic would have been locked by now on the Aion boards, simply because players understand the nature of PvP. Here, PvP is taboo. To actually see some people imply that they should be able to acquire a shivan without being pestered by a PvP'er is maddening. It is not griefing if a player decides to consistently prevent another player from using a heavy, or getting a shivan. It's PvP, and the PvP'er is using the zone as it was intended. I'm not sure the Devs would ever say that our use of nukes and shivans in TF's was ever 'intended'.
None of the PvE arguments will hold water in a PvP oriented game. The reason they do here is because CoH wasn't designed around PvP, and there isn't incentive for a regular player to even consider PvPing. (I'm talking about practical incentives, not pipe dreams). No real resolution outside of a redname posting in this topic is ever going to be found. In the end, the best resolution is to call the shivans a PvPvE mission, because that's pretty much what it is.
I've probably gotten 2 kills in CoH PvP. I got over 1600 in Aion in two weeks. Those numbers alone sum up my position on CoH PvP.
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In the past a redname did comment on this subject they said somethign along the lines of "Attacking someone in PvP is not griefing.".
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Originally Posted by Tonality
Someone died in PvP. True story.
Reading this topic has actually made me want to PvP some of the posters here. Wanna fight about it? In the abyss in Aion you are in a PvP zone, but can expressly choose to do only PvE missions which involve you killing NPCs. There is a greater reward to do this. However, you are also a reward to any hunting party that might happen to stop by. It's annoying to get ganked when you're trying to do something besides PvP. It's even more annoying if the other side has complete control over the very area you'd like to be. I suppose I should just ask them nicely to let me go finish my NPC missions there then. It's why I think Aion toting the acronym "PvPve" is nothing new to MMOs. In Aion, if I wanted to do a PvE mission in a PvP zone where Elyos controlled that reagion, I had to find some friends to go drive off those self-righteous Elyos. Then a few hours later, I'd join my legion and go camp the starting area and we would kill Elyos by the hundreds. Was my behavior griefing because I kept those Ellies from doing their missions? Hardly. I never was banned, and I did this nearly every evening for a week. This topic would have been locked by now on the Aion boards, simply because players understand the nature of PvP. Here, PvP is taboo. To actually see some people imply that they should be able to acquire a shivan without being pestered by a PvP'er is maddening. It is not griefing if a player decides to consistently prevent another player from using a heavy, or getting a shivan. It's PvP, and the PvP'er is using the zone as it was intended. I'm not sure the Devs would ever say that our use of nukes and shivans in TF's was ever 'intended'. None of the PvE arguments will hold water in a PvP oriented game. The reason they do here is because CoH wasn't designed around PvP, and there isn't incentive for a regular player to even consider PvPing. (I'm talking about practical incentives, not pipe dreams). No real resolution outside of a redname posting in this topic is ever going to be found. In the end, the best resolution is to call the shivans a PvPvE mission, because that's pretty much what it is. I've probably gotten 2 kills in CoH PvP. I got over 1600 in Aion in two weeks. Those numbers alone sum up my position on CoH PvP. |
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This is coming from the guy that just said this:|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
We've been over this. This isn't war, it's a game.
Roleplay PVP has already been soundly rejected. |
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I see no reason to let the bullies run the playground.
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The implementation of PvE mouse traps into PvP was a stupid development idea. Sure, it lures PvErs into PvP zones, but it pisses everyone off and puts both PvPers and PvErs off to future PvP encounters. Not sure who's brilliant idea it was in cryptic to bait PvErs into PvP this way, but if paragon studios development team have a chance to change this, it should be.
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Maybe just the ones that say "I'm going to force you to PvP, and you can't run. And if you run you're a coward. If you can't handle that, don't come, wuss!"
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
Really? People attacking other players in a PvP zone are bullies? Do you seriously believe that?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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That isn't a bully...that person can't even trshtahlk rite, nub! :P
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Maybe just the ones that say "I'm going to force you to PvP, and you can't run. And if you run you're a coward. If you can't handle that, don't come, wuss!"
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Lisar, the irony of your argument is that PvPers complain and complain that the Zones are empty. They complain that their would-be opponents flee from them instead of standing and fighting.
Now you're telling the potential newcomers not to even come.
Instead of taking a look at what you're doing and the likelihood that maybe you really are in the wrong with the approach of anarchic combat, you're embracing the entropy that is damaging your experience. You may believe that you're telling players to have a thicker skin, but what you're winding up with is a "holier-than-thou" attitude that is only going to further turn players off from the PvP experience.
We can do plenty well without PvP, and have proven it demonstrably. PvP, however, cannot do without more players. Without the players, you're just floating in an empty zone, waiting for foes who have found that the easiest, and possibly best, way to beat your game is to not play it.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Quick someone disagree with me so I can post pad like everyone else...
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz. No.
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You've convinced me!|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Lisar, the irony of your argument is that PvPers complain and complain that the Zones are empty. They complain that their would-be opponents flee from them instead of standing and fighting.
Now you're telling the potential newcomers not to even come. Instead of taking a look at what you're doing and the likelihood that maybe you really are in the wrong with the approach of anarchic combat, you're embracing the entropy that is damaging your experience. You may believe that you're telling players to have a thicker skin, but what you're winding up with is a "holier-than-thou" attitude that is only going to further turn players off from the PvP experience. We can do plenty well without PvP, and have proven it demonstrably. PvP, however, cannot do without more players. Without the players, you're just floating in an empty zone, waiting for foes who have found that the easiest, and possibly best, way to beat your game is to not play it. |
i17: Carebear Nerf
-The controlling side of Recluse's Victory now will gain the chance of getting a PvP IO drop from any NPC in the zone.
-Villains and Heroes can launch incursions into enemy soil on a limited basis. These are limited by events, and appropriate warning for carebears to seek cover will be provided.
-Now not only marketeers can PvP warshades by preventing their purpling. Now you can duel the warshade you kept from getting purpled!
-The PvP balance system is now applied to the entire game. Now players get tells saying "LOLZ U DONT HAV FLURY? NUB LRN2PLAY"
-New costume pieces of furry animals with round ears available.
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And why not.|
Originally Posted by Airborne_Ninja
No.
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Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz. Here why I run when attacked in PvP zones: 1) I'm alone, 2), my powers are not the same as in a PvE zone, 3) I'm alone and I do not know if you are. Since my powers do not work like they do in PvE zones, I'm outtie. When my powers work like they do in a PvE zone and not pentalized for having those powers, I will fight back. Till then, if I'm solo, I'm running. And yes I know when I'm in PvP zone I'm going to be attack so I do not whine about.
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I thought the irony was I don't PvP unless I get dragged into the zone by my SG.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Lisar, the irony of your argument is that PvPers complain and complain that the Zones are empty. They complain that their would-be opponents flee from them instead of standing and fighting.
Now you're telling the potential newcomers not to even come. Instead of taking a look at what you're doing and the likelihood that maybe you really are in the wrong with the approach of anarchic combat, you're embracing the entropy that is damaging your experience. You may believe that you're telling players to have a thicker skin, but what you're winding up with is a "holier-than-thou" attitude that is only going to further turn players off from the PvP experience. We can do plenty well without PvP, and have proven it demonstrably. PvP, however, cannot do without more players. Without the players, you're just floating in an empty zone, waiting for foes who have found that the easiest, and possibly best, way to beat your game is to not play it. |
Also clicky
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Because I said so.
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Originally Posted by Boomie
And why not.
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Why do you stop and kill random mobs on the streets of Paragon? They're an enemy, you're rewarded for defeating them. Why should you (an enemy to that stalker) be any different in a PVP zone? You were a target of opportunity with an attached reward.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth