What Are Heroes Running FROM?

You don't have to but you will...oh and here we call that the Arena.
Well you know there were some bugged missions where the person you were suppose to kidnap never spawned and defeating the guards instantly ended the mission. If a boss and guard didn't spawn and you get instant win is that mission no longer PvE?
PvPers might not like being called cockroaches... Told you Except you no...all those games that don't...they call that Death Match I think. Funny because I define PvP content as content whose result is effected by PvP. Sure if getting attacked by PvP had 0 effect on the goal it's just PvE. And while we are talking about control points wouldn't that be what happens when PvPers camp a rock?

Yes you can play the missions without PvP but then it's just like Capture the flag with no opponents. Since a lot of people don't like PvP the developers were kind and did not require PvP to get the powers.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

I could say much the same thing.

1: Not if you don't defeat someone.
2: Not if there's nobody in-zone to defeat.

Note: The "steal the fragments" is the option.


I DO NOT have to PVP to get these rewards at all. Get it? That makes it PVE.

Deal with it.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

I prefer PvP remain optional as well. But this does not mean it's not PvP content.

Some missions? Yeah. The mechanic is still PVE. Player Versus ENVIRONMENT.

NPC's aren't the only thing that qualifies as environment.

*Le Sigh*

Are you reading what I'm typing or reacting to it?


Something you completely missed.


See what I mean about that argument?



Ah, ad hominem instead of a real argument. Good job! You lose!

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

They are in a PVP zone, with PVP risk directly affecting the quality of the reward. Get it? That makes it a PVP mission.

Deal with it.

Oh, or are you going to tell me "Deal with it" isn't auto-win on an argument? Then don't you go around using it like it means your word is the world of God either.

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Nobody ever said they were.

No. You're consenting to the possibility of being ganked by another player, nothing more. Nothing is forcing you to PVP. And, if you don't wish to continue, you simply get away from the impediment to your objectives (see: Other Player)

Not the same thing as being forced to actually fight back.

Who stays and complains? If they do, that's their problem. The OP was whining about someone running away when he tried to engage in a PVP duel.

No, it's even easier. If you don't want to be attacked, just get away from your aggressor and try again later.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

We're not talking about the reward. We're talking about the mission mechanics themselves.

Get him in here and get him to try and tell me that the mission requires PVP.

What? The name-dropping? Nope!

Yet PVP is not required to complete the mission.

Not quite sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp...

Actually, you still have to interact with the various consoles and, possibly, down one of the bunkers in BB. So yeah, that's still PVE mechanics.

So you're incorrect. Sorry. It happens to the best of us.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Nobody said any such thing.

The missions for the nukes and the Shivans are nice and all. But their original objective (to drive more people into the PVP zones and, hopefully, get them to try PVP) is an abysmal failure of biblical proportions.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Because, for whatever reason, some people do not wish to engage in PVP combat. Ever. It's really and truly that simple.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

You keep spouting this nonsense that you don't have to pvp to get these rewards so what I don't have to pve to get these rewards and clicky glowies dont count unless you think capture the flag in other games is pve.

All your logic fails so please just stop this is a pvp zone it's directly tied to pvp it's pvp. Ever hear the saying if it looks like a rose and smells like a rose well ya.

Do please show where that argument has been put forward by "the PVP mindset." Especially when some arguing the PVP side have acknowledged multiple times that PVP is a small, small portion of the game, and of community interest.
However, by entering the zone, they agreed to the risk. That, however, is generally agreed on even by those who want to avoid it - they'll come back later. I don't think there's any argument (well, much) about that in the thread.
Why do you assume that's all that's done? Because the OP mentioned it?

Do look at the guide in my sig. I can also point out multiple - *multiple* - times where their wishes were respected, where they were even *assisted* (and I've been on both the giving and receiving end of that) with such things as shivan runs. Or where they were taken in hand and told what went wrong, what they did right, and encouraged to try again. How? Because that's the majority of what I see. Hell, that's what I *do,* and most PVPers I see *do.*
I'm tired of the PVEer mindset. All they do is steal kills, fill broadcast with lines that look like a five year old who just learned their first four-letter words, can't team, can't spell, and make life unpleasant. They have no idea how to play their characters most times, and were probably just PLed.

Does that sound ridiculous to you? Sure it does.
Does that describe a loudmouthed minority of the playerbase? Sure.
Should I paint the whole of the community with that brush? Of course not.

So you'll understand if I ask you not to do the same with the PVP community. Yes, there are some loudmouthed, bad mannered folks out there - but with *my* experience - which from your own description is probably much wider when it comes to both the zones and community - it is, indeed, a minority.

See my Guides and Tutorials

SO the reward - directly influenced by mechanics and *location* (PVP zone) with associated risk, doesn't matter to you.... mmmkay.
No, and quit being foolish about it. That's direct reference to how *PVP directly influences the intent and reward of the mission*. The mission and the reward are tied together, all part of the same thing - and I mean all facets, such as difficulty, mob difficulty, end reward and the like. This attitude is visible in multiple nerfs/buffs/changes to various missions throughout the history of the game.

Neither is PVE.
Nope. I can take a processed shard away from you. PVP.

Edit: And to combine replies:
Actually, it has been in the past (to remove any semblance of anything someone could consider PVE from the PVP zones.) Said in this thread? No, not to my recollection. Often said earlier in response to "I want my badges/shivans/other rewards, I have the right to be left alone" type posts.

(I'll point out, as well, nobody's brought out an attitude that they have "the right" to be left alone - just the statement that, given their preferences, they'll leave and try some other time, which is a totally different thing.)

Is it? Half a failure, perhaps, but I'd chalk THAT up more to (a) the game not really having integrated PVP, such as having wildly different mechanics now, which only exacerbates things, and (b) personal preference of not wanting to PVP.

It certainly gets people in the zones, after all - which is part of the reason this discussion is ongoing. The desire for the reward... without the risk, in some cases, or deciding that the reward is not worth the risk.

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Yes.

If they are devoted to the idea of 'wanting to encourage people to pvp,' putting desirable things into the open pvp zones where you can actively avoid conflict is probably not the way to go.

Not to toot WoW's horn too much, but if they perhaps did something along the lines of instanced battlegrounds that functioned cross-server to bump of the potential number of participants at any time... (on WoW I played in a server called Bladefist, but the pool of battleground participants was drawn from a larger list of servers, but I can't remember what that was called).

On that level, everyone engaging in the activity would be a) actively going there to PvP, so there wouldn't be the whole 'is it PvP or PvE clothed in PvP trappings' debate that seems to roar up over BB, SC, Warburg, and Rv from time to time like in this thread, b) at least willing to TRY the activity and since that's what they'd be going there to DO, they REALLY wouldn't have any room for complaint.

Right now, because of the difference in point of view, you will always have side the believes that the zones are essentially zones where PvP is ALLOWED versus the side that believes the zones are essentially zones where PVP is REQUIRED. That debate is never going to be resolved because the two sides are so entrenched in their opinions that it always devolves into 'because I said so.'

Now this suggestion does nothing really to make the other player's character relevant to me, so I doubt if I'd really participate in hypothetical CoH 'Battlegrounds,' but at the very least it would serve to concentrate participation in the activity to a small area, which would likely at least give the PvPers the perception that they aren't all so spread out.

That might make it more enjoyable to them and make it less likely that they take every opportunity they can to gank the nearest reluctant person because their opportunities are so limited.

Maybe, maybe not.

Yes it is.

Not only do you have to talk to an NPC to begin, you also have to interact with an object to complete. And in the case of Bloody Bay, you have to get to a computer that someone else cleaned the turrets around. Not impossible, but definitely difficult without PvE.

Besides, maybe YOU don't have to engage in PvP beyond that, but SOMEBODY does. Although you can get shards by beating people up, those shards had to come from PvE at some point. The entire thing can be completed without PvP, but nothing can be completed without PvE. Somewhere, at some point, someone had to PvE. Stealing their stuff lets you skip that step, but you're still benefitting from their PvE actions.

If PvP was turned off, all of these so-called PvP content missions would still be possible. If PvE was turned off, they wouldn't. Nobody in any zone on any server has to PvP even one iota to get a Shivan Shard, but for every shard obtained, somebody somewhere paid for those shards with PvE content.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

OK. Let's take this to the ultimate conclusion with just this statement.

No zone in the game is a PVP zone. Why? Because you must interact with the PVE world to get there. (The flyer/chopper or its pilot, or an arena terminal. After all, by your own statement, you have to "interact with an object" - not fight, just interact - thus forcing it to be PVE.)

There, argument solved. There are no longer any PVP zones. It's all PVE with some relaxed rules about player interaction. (And quite honestly, you've just ripped the PVP out of multiple games that most assuredly ARE PVP based with that, as well.)

Sound ridiculous? Yes. But, IMHO, so does that statement as *any* measure of what's PVP or PVE.

Oh - and when is clicking on a glowie counted as "Versus?" The computer doesn't fight back. It doesn't try to prevent me from completing the mission. It doesn't give away my position (though it does keep me in place for several seconds for another player to possibly kill me.)

Edit:
So, let's redesign this to be a purely PVP mission, that cannot be completed without PVP, and has no PVE interaction (no, clicking on an NPC or glowie does not count, there is no "versus" - which implies opposition - involved there.)

What in the mission now is PVE - environment resisting and threatening (versus) you, unavoidable conflict? The turrets. I can get (and typically do) the shards without fighting anything or risking being attacked by the environment. (Jetpack, hover at 65 feet, the shivans often won't even come out. Yes, even at the meteor hidden under the trees.)

So how do we purify this mission to be strictly PVP?
1. It is unavailable if there is nobody from the other side in the game. It requires PVP to finish.
2. The firebases are completely locked down. In order to unlock them, there are no turrets - every opposing player, on defeat, releases a key. Only one is needed to enter a firebase (renamed bunker.) Teleporting is disabled.
3. Keys cannot be kept. They cannot be traded, stored, sold, or acquired in any way other than by defeating another player.
4. Bunkers will only let one player in at a time. The player must have their own key. The bunker relocks immediately after a player enters and finishes.
5. Players with keys must have taken at least X% damage from an opposing player. Confused same-side players do not count. (enter RP reason about "blood is required to activate the key.") This is to prevent someone just standing around to get killed.

Does that sound Fun? Does that sound like anybody whatsoever would bother? Or does it sound like it'd sabotage the zone, reducing population further?

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Ah, the old "both sides are just as bad" line. That's a standard defense ( and not just for PvP ) but I see no reason to believe it. The majority of people I hear admit to being PvPers act that way; the majority of PvErs don't. Not just in the few times I go into the zones, but on my global channels too. Not all - you for example are one of the few I haven't ended up /gignoring in game - but most.

Except... well, let's take Sam's comment:

See... the zones *do* give concentration points. The meteors don't move. The firebases don't move. The hotspots are always in one of the same points (and marked on the map.) You know where the scientists, labs, and computers are, in Warburg. You know where the bunkers are in RV.

You're directing people to specific points to initiate conflict to finish personal or zone goals. Sure, you can avoid those points - which also has you avoid PVP - but if you avoid them, and you're not there to fight people, why are you in the zone to begin with? (Barring the time badge, which can, of course, just be had by standing around inside the chopper. Which, to me, is still silly.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

Not really. I think the end result would be that practically no one would have a Shivan unless they did something like 'work it out beforehand' with SG mates to come on with their characters on the other side or engage in some other similarly shady tactic to get one.

But as to it reducing the population of the zone further? I doubt it. The zones are already pretty much dead. You can reduce the population from 5 on a given day to 2 on a given day, but who'd notice?

It may be a standard defense, but in my case, it is true. Like I said, I seem to have had far more interaction with PVPers than you in their "native land," if you will.

Of course, part of this, as well, is what you're taking as insulting or offensive behaviour. Are you seeing some of the back-and-forth as being insulting, or specifically the "u suk, ur mama blah blah, u r ****" immature nonsense?

See, if I took - say - some of the talk from a basketball court, and dropped it into a corporate office meeting, it would go from being acceptable and good natured into quite likely very offensive, and definitely inappropriate. Similarly, if I took some of what I know full well to be good-natured trash-talking to the competition and dropped it... oh... into the Legion of Catgirls channel with no context, they'd probably think I was being thoroughly insulting.

One thing with a smaller community or sub-community is that the people tend to know each other and have history. For instance, one PVPer (who I haven't seen in a while) had a stalker on Pinnacle named, as I recall, Peek-a-boo. Read the bio, find out they don't like being called "cute." That stalker and my Peacebringer had regular run-ins. I'd see them and throw out something like, "Oh, look, it's that little stalker trying to be cute" or something similar. They knew it was in fun. I knew it was. Hell, so'd most of the zone.

Drop that line somewhere out of context and it sounds like I'm putting them down or being insulting.

So... what measure are you using to judge? And is it really being seen in context?

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Oh, sure, and there are folks in WoW who go into Alterac Valley and hang out at the entrance to do nothing other than to farm honor... and they are routinely villified by the other participants even though there's nothing they can really do about them.

The difference, I think, between the instanced battleground model and the open zone with objectives model is the implied assumption that the player has gone into the instanced battleground specifically TO pvp. When the ultimate reward for the player is something that essentially enhances the pve experience, rather than essentially enhances the pvp experience, you are always going to see people who go in to get the pve objective and then leave if they have to pvp to get it because they can always come back later when they won't have to do that.

If you go into Alterac Valley, there is no particular reason to be there other than to engage in the pvp experience. If you go into any of the CoH zones, there is definitely a reason to be there other than to do so.

I think by concentrating the people who want to engage in the pvp experience together rather than creating an environment where you mish-mash different playing styles together, you create a more enjoyable experience for everyone, no matter the playing style.

Incorrect assumption.

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Not to be rude, but you did say a few pages back that you were Autistic. While I'm certainly no expert on the subject of such disorders, I do know that one of the major symptoms is an inability to understand other people's feelings.

So I will do my best to explain to you my personal feelings on such a situation occurring in PVP.

*****
I have a TF to run tomorrow, so I'm gathering Shivan Shards in case we have debuffer issues. Suddenly someone appears behind me and stabs me. Because I did not see you coming, and had no time to mentally prepare, this activates the "flight" portion of my "fight or flight response."

As I run, I turn and see that you're still following me, or worse, you've disappeared again and for all I know you're right on my tail. Since this is a PVP zone, you probably have friends, because past experience tells me that's how it goes. So I head for an area I absolutely know will be safe, and head to the drones in my base.

Once I get there, I finally have a moment to think clearly about what's going on. There is a Stalker in the zone, and he definitely wants to fight. I think back to previous encounters with Stalkers and my own experiences playing them. As a Stalker, your job is to use Assassin Strike to do massive spikes of damage from concealment, and you have the ability to use Placate to minimize the opponent's ability to counter attack. I also clearly recall the time a Stalker engaged me, so I turned to fight and just as I was about to win, two more Stalkers appeared and took me out.

I also think about my personal experiences with PVP. I've won quite a few 1-on-1 battles in the PVP zones before, but I didn't get any enjoyment out of it (and this was before the i13 changes). I've lost even more battles, and losing definitely wasn't fun. PVP is a zero-sum game for me.

I think about all these things in the matter of a few seconds. Admittedly, I wonder why there's no trash talk in Broadcast yet, because it's par for the course. I can only assume that the Stalker (undoubtedly hovering out there, waiting, watching) is in the midst of writing a five paragraph essay on why "Chad is teh suxx lolulz."

Right about this point, I think to myself, "I've got better things to do than deal with this jerk," and leave the zone. I will come back the next day before the TF if I have time and get Shivans then. If I'm attacked by another Stalker, I'll probably just forget the whole thing.
*****

Alright, here's some reasons why people (who as you say could probably beat you) would have run that I haven't seen yet:

1) Fear of the Unknown: Your character's most distinguishing ability is that it can turn invisible. On top of that, attacking while invisible gives you a damage bonus which becomes outright ludicrous when you use your Assassin Strike power. You also have the ability to instantly become invisible again to that target by using your Placate power, which also makes it so they have no way to attack you outside of landing a lucky shot with an AOE power.

In the later PVP zones, people will often have abilities or IO bonuses that improve their perception and allow them to see Stalkers, which somewhat negates the above point. But while limited to level 25, those abilities are rare, while it's unproportionately common for a Stalker to have access to Super Speed and/or Stealth in addition to their natural Hide power.


2) They Don't Know You: You just walked up and stabbed me in the back. How am I supposed to know that's your way of saying "Hello, what are you up to?" It's an aggressive act, and as mentioned earlier, it forces my brain into a "fight or flight" response. As I'm not a PVPer, my scale balances towards "flight," so I run. Which leads to my third point...


3) They're not PVPers: An experienced PVPer, when surprised, would likely jump just outside your attack range to quickly analyze the situation. When they realize you're not a threat, they would undoubtedly use your face to polish their boots. Even if you WERE a threat, it's unlikely they'd break off the engagement completely, and instead coax you into a situation where they have the upper hand.

Non-PVPers, on the other hand, don't have this experience. You're a Stalker; you stabbed them and then chased them when they started to flee, and you're really hard to find because a few seconds after your attack, you're invisible again.

Let me ask you a question now. Say there's an invisible man who sometimes goes to your grocery store. He is completely incapable of harming you, but he can still pinch you, pull your hair and flick your ears. You know for a fact that he can't follow you if you leave the store. Wouldn't you leave until he got bored and left, or just go to a different store (i.e., run different game content) altogether?


Finally,

4) People Assume the Worst: This one HAS been touched on before in other posts, but I felt it needed to be brought up again. If you stab someone out of Hide, and they immediately retaliate, likely one of two things has happened: you've brought down the wrath of an experienced PVPer, or you've startled someone with almost no PVP experience at all.

The majority of players in between those two levels of experience have dealt with sudden Assassin Strikes from nowhere, and they know it's followed up by a) griefing and/or harrassment, b) surprise gank squads, or c) the Stalker who instigated the fight running away, only to return and do the dance all over again once his health has returned and his powers recharged.

If you poke a cat when it's hissing, it claws you. You poke another cat when it's hissing, and it claws you. You learn that when a cat is hissing, you don't mess with it or you're going to suffer a negative experience. The same thing applies to PVP in a way; if you have enough bad experiences, you learn them as the rule instead of the exception.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!