Should Energy Melee Get More AOE Damage ?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-12-09 21:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Cathodian
To put it quite plainly, I don't think any Melee set should get more AoEs.
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Why ? How is Energy Melee's AOE not subpar ?
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Originally Posted by Cathodian
To put it quite plainly, I don't think any Melee set should get more AoEs.
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Irrelevant to the question on the floor. Melee sets do have AoE's. What is being discussed is, how does Energy Melee's AoE compare with other melee sets' AoE's.
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
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Sure it is. It answers the question "Should Energy Melee Get More AOE Damage?" -> No.|
Originally Posted by GATE-keeper
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Irrelevant to the question on the floor. Melee sets do have AoE's. What is being discussed is, how does Energy Melee's AoE compare with other melee sets' AoE's. |
More single target damage, higher DPS, or more mitigation, sure. More AOE Damage? No. How about a little differentiation? Do they all need to have comparable AoE damage?
And I never said Melee sets should not have AoE's, I just said they shouldn't have more.
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Cathodian (50 Rad/Rad)
Archanix (50 Ill/FF)
Dr. Deadface (Current: 40 Rad/MM)
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Agreed, it would be silly to make all sets have strong aoe abilities, there should be some sets that are poor in aoe, but that would be balanced in giving that set powerful single target abilities. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Every set doesn't need strong AoE damage. Though we know that AoE damage is superior for a lot of "power progress" purposes such as XP/time or inf/time, it's not a good enough reason to make everything slanted towards that.
A regular refrain from the few people I know who still play the set (primarily because they still want to play characters who pre-dated the ET change) is that they get sick of stuff dying to teammates while they animate ET. A big chunk of CoH's playerbase is addicted to this game because it features fluid, fast moving combat. Having part of your attack chain be "take a coffee break" doesn't mesh well with that. Before the ET change, EM was the pack leader in single-target DPS. Now, it's not leader in anything, and the multiple long animations make it distasteful for multiple reasons. While the debate back when the change was made suggests that the devs may be painted into a corner on ET itself, they aren't on the rest of the set. They could improve the set's single-target DPS using changes to other powers. The set was never particularly impressive in the levels before you got to ET, and those earlier powers look like the best option for improvement. Whirling Hands does blow, and I'd love to see it improved, but what I really want back is the ability to do strong single-target damage. If I could get that without being able to take my hands off the keyboard for like 2/3 of my attack chain, that'd be spiffy too. |
That WAS energy melee. Terrible aoe but the best burst and dps single target set. But some players had a hard time wrapping their minds around the idea of a set that was dominant at one thing and horrible at another. So when et showed its strength, especially in pvp situations, people cried 'overpowered', while ignoring it's blatant weaknesses.
They weren't with the em guy from 1-50 using a set that is nearly useless on teams and badly overshadowed by pretty much every other set because they all have superior aoe.
One of the devs even straight out admitted it was hearing these cries that contributed to nerfing em (et specifically) - stating there were countless posters laughing at people who took anything other than em - but they somehow missed the fact they were all in regards to pvp builds. Only a fool would have suggested em as a top choice for team play. In pve, especially on teams, aoe rules the day.
Now that's not to say em is unplayable, but it's clearly a bottom feeder now. It's dead last in aoe ability, has poor aoe mitigation, slow animations (enjoy all the wasted attacks as teamates kill your targets while sloth.. er... energy transfer animates), a top power that kills your regen, in exchange for single target abilities that are merely on par with other sets that dominate you in aoe, in fact some are superior in both aoe and single target.
If I had my way, em would be reverted to what it was - the best single target set balanced by the fact it's the worst aoe set. It's dominance in pvp would be remedied somewhat by the recent pvp changes in that energy damage is not as lightly resisted as it once was. It would still be a top choice for pvp, but again, that's balanced by the fact its a bottom choice for pve due to weak aoe abilities.
My second choice for a remedy would be to improve the sets aoe ability. They could start by making either em or et a cone or small pbaoe.
But leaving the set as is, imo, is a shame. It was a really fun set that was unfairly nerfed to death due to ignorance and miscommunication.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Agreed, it would be silly to make all sets have strong aoe abilities, there should be some sets that are poor in aoe, but that would be balanced in giving that set powerful single target abilities.
That WAS energy melee. Terrible aoe but the best burst and dps single target set. But some players had a hard time wrapping their minds around the idea of a set that was dominant at one thing and horrible at another. So when et showed its strength, especially in pvp situations, people cried 'overpowered', while ignoring it's blatant weaknesses. They weren't with the em guy from 1-50 using a set that is nearly useless on teams and badly overshadowed by pretty much every other set because they all have superior aoe. One of the devs even straight out admitted it was hearing these cries that contributed to nerfing em (et specifically) - stating there were countless posters laughing at people who took anything other than em - but they somehow missed the fact they were all in regards to pvp builds. Only a fool would have suggested em as a top choice for team play. In pve, especially on teams, aoe rules the day. Now that's not to say em is unplayable, but it's clearly a bottom feeder now. It's dead last in aoe ability, has poor aoe mitigation, slow animations (enjoy all the wasted attacks as teamates kill your targets while sloth.. er... energy transfer animates), a top power that kills your regen, in exchange for single target abilities that are merely on par with other sets that dominate you in aoe, in fact some are superior in both aoe and single target. If I had my way, em would be reverted to what it was - the best single target set balanced by the fact it's the worst aoe set. It's dominance in pvp would be remedied somewhat by the recent pvp changes in that energy damage is not as lightly resisted as it once was. It would still be a top choice for pvp, but again, that's balanced by the fact its a bottom choice for pve due to weak aoe abilities. My second choice for a remedy would be to improve the sets aoe ability. They could start by making either em or et a cone or small pbaoe. But leaving the set as is, imo, is a shame. It was a really fun set that was unfairly nerfed to death due to ignorance and miscommunication. |
This quote is right on the money.
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Pre-nerf I took out AVs/Heroes fairly easily and pylons fell in a few min. Now that DPS is gone. AVs take forever to kill (still possible but other sets can do a much better job) and pylons take 15-20 min vs 7-8 before. A pretty big change in performance for increasing the cast time of one power. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
I never saw this great DPS from Energy Melee.
I did see great burst damage. But where was this awesome DPS? |
Granted this was on a brute not a tank.
Here is how EM sits as far as DPA goes with similar attacks in other sets.
Energy Punch: Tie for 1st out of 5
Barrage: 4th place out of 5. Beat by Smite, Fire Sword, Ablating Strike. Only better than Havoc punch.
Bone Smasher: Middle of the road. Beat by Chop, Cremate, Haymaker, (and focus but I'm not going to count that due to claws mechanics.) Beats out Jacobs Ladder, Stone Mallet and Vengeful Slice and is tied with Pulverize.
Total Focus: Difficult to judge due to a lack of other 20 second recharge attacks in other sets. That being said Cleave, Midnight grasp and Clobber are all faster to recharge, use less endurance and do more DPA. Hell, every single target attack in the Fire set except for Scorch does more DPA. The only similar attack is Seismic Smash and lets be honest, its not even in the same league.
Energy Transfer. Well it does beat out Cleave, Midnight grasp (and all the Fire melee attacks.) But those are all much lower recharge attacks and it should beat those attacks. The only fair comparison is Seismic Smash and KO Blow. Both of which have better DPA when factoring in rage. Oh and it is still beat out by Clobber. So 4th out of 4
In a nutshell, the set shines.... Until you get something other than Energy Punch.
Edit to add disclamer: All info above based on brute options as I don't bother with tanks.
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Okay, I'm more than willing to admit you obtained better DPS on a Brute vs a Tanker. My question now is, how much +RCH did you have to obtain, or what attack chain did you use to get that DPS?|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Pre-nerf I took out AVs/Heroes fairly easily and pylons fell in a few min. Now that DPS is gone. AVs take forever to kill (still possible but other sets can do a much better job) and pylons take 15-20 min vs 7-8 before. A pretty big change in performance for increasing the cast time of one power.
Granted this was on a brute not a tank. |
I never got ET down to such a low recharge to use it often enough for an AC. I built my tank more for soaking damage...so, I used EM as a burst dmg set, and lived with it. I didn't build for a great attack chain.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I dont recall my exact build, but with about 140% global rech, and hecatomb in ET with crushing impacts all around: EP > BS > EP > ET > EP > BS > EP > TF could take down a lot on my WP/EM tank, as this could be done during the time build-up was active. Now the animations take up too much time. Im sure there are much better builds, but I never "optimized" mine."
I miss it a lot. Argueably better fisticuffmanship than most scrappers! Please, at least give back the animation -- I really dont care about the DPS -- the sets *FEEL* is just horrible now.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
I never really had an issue with EM or the changed version. I think its mainly because of the way I play the game. I dont look at dps and other crazy stuff like that. I just find the most meaty target and form an attack chain that will allow me to kill it in the fewest hits possible. I think whats happening with folks is they want to use attacks like ET or TF on stuff like minions which pretty much get 1 shotted at full fury. I learned early from playing stalkers its just not worth using heavy hitters on minions unless your solo. On teams stuff dies too fast to waste attacks on crap like minions. As a tanker its not even your job to be a damage dealer in first place so the single target damage is fine for stuff thats meaty like AVs. As a scrapper or brute you should just adjust your tactics to be more like stalkers where you mainly focus on bosses. Stalkers should be already doing this anyways.
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Does EM need more AoE damage? Ehh.... well, Whirling Hands certainly shouldn't be worse damage than Whirling Mace, given that they're the same radius, same animation, same chance to stun for the same duration, same endurance cost, and same recharge.
If not a boost in base damage for Whirling Hands, then a guaranteed stun (and to whomever suggested 45 seconds to match Flashfires, go look at Hand Clap, Lightning Clap, Fault, and other melee AoE stuns. Or just shut up since you obviously don't have any idea what you're talking about). It lacks in AoE damage and AoE mitigation. Stone Melee is arguably worse for AoE damage due to Tremor's ridiculously long animation time, but has great AoE mitigation and similar single-target damage on an average recharge build (and far better potential due to Seismic Smash and Heavy Mallet).
I only kept my EM/Elec Brute after the nerf since she was my badge collector and I didn't want to have to get Weathergirl again - but after two years of sitting on mothballs the addition of Energize gave me a reason to try her out again. Yes, my SM/WP (who incidentially has more recharge) does more damage to a single target, with more safety. But Willpower doesn't have a damage aura, and with Ball Lightning, Lightning Field, and even the underwhelming Whirling Hands (!) the EM/Elec can put out better AoE damage, get close on single-target, and still provide enough survivability that I don't feel like I'm completely wasting my time (although admittedly, most of that is due to Lightning Field). Yes, I could do substantially better than that with a different powerset combination - but I already had this character at 50, and the difference in speed isn't worth levelling up another Brute with a more AoE-happy primary to me. The difference between "bottom feeder" and "great" isn't as large as the drama you see here occasionally would have you believe.
Will I make another EM Brute? Hell no. The feel of the set changed, and you just won't get that same feel back. I miss the feel of the old EM, and that's what got me started playing DM. If the only reason it was nerfed was due to how far out of the "standard formulas" the powers were, then they should at least get powers that are below the spec up to par - thus a buff to WH.
And as for "the [Brute] primary of choice for soloing AVs"... I made the SM Brute prior to the changes to EM because I was tired of taking so much self-damage from ET. At the time I made her, the animation times for both of the mallets were 1.13 seconds (they were raised to 1.61 and 1.63 prior to the EM changes), which made SM better than EM - even with a 1sec ET for sustained single-target at high but not extreme recharge, and at extreme recharge ET was crippling yourself due to the self-damage and you had to take time out of attacking to heal or you'd kill yourself.
There was no reason whatsoever to take EM for anything outside of stacking stuns on a single target to break mez protection and extreme single-target burst... which was only useful in pre-i13 PvP. It simply wasn't the best at anything else, even then.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I deleted my EM so not sure exactly how much recharge I had in there. With hasten up it was something like 120% global so not much. (At least for AV killers) I focused more on HP and Regen. I did not have a set attack chain, I just put the attacks in order of DPA and hit whatever was up next that had the highest DPA.
This may sound weird but could someone give me a rough draft of what the Old EM use to look like so I can drool over it?
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You mean old Energy Transfer?|
Originally Posted by Negate
This may sound weird but could someone give me a rough draft of what the Old EM use to look like so I can drool over it?
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It used the palm thrust move that Power Thrust (from Energy Manip) and Chain Induction (from Electric Melee) use.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
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That's really what you think, huh?
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I think whats happening with folks is they want to use attacks like ET or TF on stuff like minions which pretty much get 1 shotted at full fury. I learned early from playing stalkers its just not worth using heavy hitters on minions unless your solo.
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Oh wow...hrmm that does sound nice. Why did they nerf it again? Overpowered? What's wrong with having one or two overpowered sets. Surely this is still in reality today and people don't always roll Bots/Traps lol. (even though they nerfed traps)
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
You mean old Energy Transfer?
It used the palm thrust move that Power Thrust (from Energy Manip) and Chain Induction (from Electric Melee) use. |
So many people in this topic who disregard ET's -hp... So many of the same people who make and post builds geared towards maximum survivability in other sections of this forum.
Certainly strikes me as ironic to see folks frantically spending hundreds of millions for +5 HP/s while at the same time ignoring a self -15 HP/s.
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The problem is not that they nerfed ET, it's that they nerfed it too much, that the set had very little else to recommend it, and that they did not buff any of the set's weaknesses when they severely nerfed its single great strength.|
Originally Posted by Negate
Oh wow...hrmm that does sound nice. Why did they nerf it again? Overpowered? What's wrong with having one or two overpowered sets. Surely this is still in reality today and people don't always roll Bots/Traps lol. (even though they nerfed traps)
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They also reduced the stun in Total Focus so it's no longer a boss stun, and I believe they slightly improved Barrage, but it's the ET change that really hurt the set.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Actually, there's everything wrong with having overpowered sets. People flock to those sets and don't play anything else. Then people complain that no other power combinations are valid and they can't just play for concept and get good results because if they aren't playing Set X, they're gimp. Imagine all the people coming in who want to play Broadsword, Storm, Pain Domination, or whatever, when really everyone they talk to is telling them how incredibly powerful WM/EA is (lulz) and they shouldn't play anything else.|
Originally Posted by Negate
Oh wow...hrmm that does sound nice. Why did they nerf it again? Overpowered? What's wrong with having one or two overpowered sets. Surely this is still in reality today and people don't always roll Bots/Traps lol. (even though they nerfed traps)
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This becomes a big problem if you just handwave it as being okay since it's only "one or two" overpowered sets. Eventually overpowered sets have to be looked at and toned down. And the longer they're allowed to sit, and the more people flock to them, the more people you risk annoying, especially if you aren't careful and overnerf it.
Of course, underpowered sets are just as bad. So it's a bad idea to keep those around without looking into them too.
Right now I'd call EM underpowered. It's not tops on ST damage. Which in and of itself doesn't make the bad set. But that also comes in conjunction with extremely poor AoE. And its mitigation is pretty low as well. Essentially the set doesn't excel at anything, and isn't even a "jack of all trades" set where it does everything decent. It does nothing.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Food for thought:
In my "results are in" thread in the scrapper forum, the first one with the ridiculous levels of recharge, I had EM pushing out 207DPS. That's with the *current* energy transfer.
If I do nothing to that chart but return ET to its 1 second animation, not even checking to see if the chain is still possible, the DPS goes up to 253.
207 to 253 DPS by reverting ET's cast time back to what it was.
For comparison sake from that same thread, the top dog was a brute DM with saturated soul drain at 222.
If we look at it in the more realistic second thread, based on basic IOs, EM sits in 2nd and 3rd place for brute and scrapper EM, (yes, I know scrappers don't have it right now,) it bumps it up from 157 to 175.
What does this show? That for high recharge builds, old EM did reach levels of single target damage output considerably above all other sets.
The nerf left EM near the top. Whirling hands should be fixed. It should be doing the correct 1.2 scale instead of the incorrect 1 scale it has now.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Considering this relies heavily on killing yourself to achieve, is that such a bad thing? I don't think it makes sense for EM to not be the best, or only be slightly better than the others, if you have to repeatedly damage yourself to attain it.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
What does this show? That for high recharge builds, old EM did reach levels of single target damage output considerably above all other sets.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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"Killing yourself" is a bit of an exaggeration. However, I wouldn't disagree with the statement that the damage it does to you is too high for the extra damage in puts out.
My belief is that it should be on a 1 for 1 basis. By the numbers, ET should only be doing 1.56 smashing and 2 energy damage. Right now it does 1.56 and 3. The self damage should then be only 1 to match the 1 extra damage the attack does.
This would mean that on a brute, it should only be doing around 41 points of damage at 50.
Be well, people of CoH.
I like the idea of changing Energy Transfer's animation to the stun animation. At least that way it would have ~1 second less than the new animation but wouldn't be as overpowered as the old one. With regards to the change of Stun's animation if this happened, you could simply do a swap or give it the "Power Thrust" animation. Would anyone see this as overpowered?
Concerning Whirling Hands, I love the animation for some reason and am happy to accept that the damage isn't great. I have plently of other toons to play when I want to pump out some serious AoE damage so I don't mind it being next to useless. Well there are my thoughts, and it would be really nice if the devs did something along these lines, in my opinion 
Thanks,
Tux.
@Fail (Used to be @Tux) and @Tuxedo Infinitus Defiant/Freedom/Champion
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As you cite, a Brute would take ~41.7 self damage from using ET. Now, if you compare that to a Scrapper, they would take ~62.61 self damage from ET. It would be 1 scale damage to both, but the Scrappers higher damage mod inadvertently makes it more danagerous to them. Consider the implications of that:|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
"Killing yourself" is a bit of an exaggeration. However, I wouldn't disagree with the statement that the damage it does to you is too high for the extra damage in puts out.
My belief is that it should be on a 1 for 1 basis. By the numbers, ET should only be doing 1.56 smashing and 2 energy damage. Right now it does 1.56 and 3. The self damage should then be only 1 to match the 1 extra damage the attack does. This would mean that on a brute, it should only be doing around 41 points of damage at 50. |
1) Not only is the Scrapper taking more damage, but they have a lower hp pool / cap than a Brute. A Scrapper with base hp would suffer ~4.67% (62.56 / 1338) self damage per use, while a Brute would take 2.78% (41.7 / 1500). If you compare that at their respective hp caps (I acknowledge Brutes hitting the cap is rare), it would be Scrappers suffering ~2.6% (62.56 / 2400) and Brutes suffering ~1.3% (41.7 / 3212).
2) Since the Brute's strength is stacked damage buffs versus high damage mod, they'd be dealing far more damage than they'd be recieving. To illustrate, a Scrapper would deal ~285 base damage (556 slotted). That's 4.55 damage per point self inflicted (8.88 slotted). A Brute would deal ~190.2 base damage (~561 slotted with 50% Fury). That's 4.56 damage per pint self inflicted (~13.45 slotted with 50% Fury).
Quick chart:
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AT HP Self Dmg BillZ Proposal Tanker 1874 166.83 (3.75) 44.49 (1) Brute 1500 156.40 (3.75) 41.70 (1) Stalker 1204 166.83 (3) 55.61 (1) *Scrap 1338 187.68 (3) 62.56 (1) *Just using the same self damage as a Stalker, since there is no Scrapper EM.
I'm not saying that the self damage may need adjustment, mind you. The ratios given above aren't entirely fair now, but they aren't explicitly set to be a 1:1 ratio to be 'fair' or 'equal' to all, either.
To put it quite plainly, I don't think any Melee set should get more AoEs.
CoH
Cathodian (50 Rad/Rad)
Archanix (50 Ill/FF)
Dr. Deadface (Current: 40 Rad/MM)