Should Energy Melee Get More AOE Damage ?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-12-09 21:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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It also means the stun is reduced.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Umm, you do realize that the clobber treatment means it does damage in addition to the stun right?
Stun+damage>> stun |
I don't think adding even more long animation ST attacks to EM will make it any better.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I suppose it depends on how much, but I'd take damage with stun over stun without damage any day. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
It also means the stun is reduced.
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| I don't think adding even more long animation ST attacks to EM will make it any better. |
DPA
stun (clobberesque)1.62
ET 1.7
TF 1.07
BS 1.09
Too many alts to list.
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1.8s cast time is not slow.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
It also means the stun is reduced.
I don't think adding even more long animation ST attacks to EM will make it any better. |
Oops, good catch Grey. I would still be happy with a 2.23 second animation in exchange for longer recharge. For some reason my brain substitued the animation time for sismic smash instead of KO blow. Guess that can happen in the wee hours of the night.
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That would make it into... Flurry? Not wholly bad, but my issue was the animation time makes the attack seem slow and deliberate. The new and improved Barrage has excellent stats, but it still feels like fighting underwater, or in an invisible 'Jello-field'. The same 'Jello-field' that allows Total Focus to go into 'bullet-time' and momentarily defy physics.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
How about the same animation time on Barrage but 3 quick hits instead of 2 slow ones. Same overall damage, just faster feel.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I'd rather see TF get a faster animation than that.
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Be Well!
Fireheart
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The clobber treatment halved the duration of the stun effect, going from 11.92 to 5.96 seconds. There's some give and take that took place so his concerns are not unfounded.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Umm, you do realize that the clobber treatment means it does damage in addition to the stun right?
Stun+damage>> stun |
While granting a 2.92 damage scale to Stun would be interesting, having a set with three attacks that approach or exceed 3 DS would likely never happen (TF=3.56, ET=4.56, Stun=2.96). Clobber in the context of War Mace appears to be a QOL improvement for a set that basically had no AOE until tiers 7, 8, and 9, and had a horrendous sustained attack chain and single target damage for tiers 1-6. Energy Melee gets AoE early, even if you don't like WH, and has 4 attacks available as early as tier 5, a formula that every other set has after the Clobber change except for Stone Melee, which gets Fault.
The highest value that I could see the developers adding to this skill would be 1.96 DS, which would make it roughly equal to Disembowel and mirror the changes to Siphon Life, which in the context of Dark Melee was granted to a set that already had solid single-target damage but needed another viable attack at the tier 5 slot for low level QOL. At 1.96 DS, 10 seconds of recharge, and 5.96 seconds of stun duration we would get the best of both worlds. The stun duration relative to recharge would stay the same, and it's just more likely that the skill would receive this type of change over the massive 2.92 DS buff that was granted to Clobber.
I am not in favor of changing Stun into a damage attack.
EM already has plenty of single target dmg capability. Yet another one doesn't really do much for it.
Further, upping the damage of Stun would really change the nature of the power into something else. As is, it's a great boon against the high damage boss or high magnitude mezzer (or against bosses who're trying to escape). It lasts long enough to get a stack going.
Shortening the duration of Stun's stun would eliminate the magnitude stacking potential, which would decrease the set's boss killing power. And boss killing power is the big draw of a ST dmg set. IMHO.
I think EM should stay a ST set.
A tweak to Whirling Hands' chance to stun to increase the set's damage mitigation would do wonders.
Upping the chance to say 80% then the duration could be shortened, the recharge time could be increased or the magnitude could be decreased.
Or some combination of these to where the net effect was that for a second or two, 8 - 10 mobs in melee range were not attacking
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I don't know that it's completely unlikely. Most people seem to dislike animations that take up to three seconds. I just see it getting held off for longer until Castle could actually make sure it was balanced out for all the powersets it would affect, though. And that's probably until after GR. *sighs* I like the idea of the expansion, I just hate how it's going to distract attention from other needed things in game.|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
I'd love to see Total Focus with a faster animation, too, however, I think it's unlikely. TF and its animation are part of several different ATs and powersets - Blasters and Peacebringers, for instance. It would make more sense to adjust one of the unique powers of Energy Melee, like Stun or Energy Transfer.
Be Well! Fireheart |
Anyway, for the Stun discussion, as people pointed out, the "Clobber" treatment requires shortening the stun duration significantly. For Warmace it was a good change, but I'm not sure it's worth cutting down the usefulness of Stun (if you're going to use it). And as said before, EM has enough ST attacks. Other than getting Whirling Hands balanced out to the damage it should have, I'd rather there was a tweak to one of the other existing ST attacks. My two cents, of course, ymmv.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
1. Barrage - same
2. EP - same
3. Bone Smasher - same (although I'd really like an uppercut like shockwave from claws - yes at the animation of one second)
4. Taunt
5. Whirling Hands - definate mag 2 stun (lieuts?) with a chance to mag 3 and I like the Footstomp damage idea
6. Build-up
7. Stun - if #3 uppercut rejected, give Claws/Focus animation, but still no damage. If #3 uppercut accepted, give Stun the Bonesmasher animation.
8. ET - *sigh* same
9. TF - likely same - uppercut animation from stun in MA would be nice or alternate animation from CAK in MA.
Basically I'd like to see *more pummeling* with big wind-ups later on.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
They ruined EM when they nerfed ET. Having that big long TF attack was one thing, and easy to deal with once you got to 32. EM was the fast hitting high damage ST monster. Now it just sucks in every regard because the devs felt the need to needlessly single out 1 average performing set because of a single power that was too good for it's damage per animation time and nerf it to hell and back when there were clearly more broken things they could have spent fixing at the time. Now EM has horrible AoE and slow, clunky ST damage who's best power just happens to smack you back for damage whether your target is alive or not.
It was a triple whammy. They killed both the feel and performance of the set while also destroying the single reason so many people liked EM in the first place.
More damage isn't the answer. They need to give back that quick ET animation so the set gets it's quick and fluid feel back. Leave the lower stun chances as is and call it even. Let it be the ST killer it used to be. There are clearly sets that specialize in doing 1 thing really awesome (for example SS brutes eclipsing all other brutes on sustained and consistent AoE damage with just ONE AoE attack in the whole set) and these seem to have gone by year after year without being touched.
The EM nerfs just seemed both random, horribly implemented, and based on trying to arbitrarily adhere to some kind of formula for animation/damage rather than trying to preserve the feel of the set while fixing the numbers.
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This totally sums up how I feel about EM. The change destroyed my EM/Inv brute who was one of my fav toons to play. I don't think giving EM more AOE is going to help it. The set would still be slow.
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
They ruined EM when they nerfed ET. Having that big long TF attack was one thing, and easy to deal with once you got to 32. EM was the fast hitting high damage ST monster. Now it just sucks in every regard because the devs felt the need to needlessly single out 1 average performing set because of a single power that was too good for it's damage per animation time and nerf it to hell and back when there were clearly more broken things they could have spent fixing at the time. Now EM has horrible AoE and slow, clunky ST damage who's best power just happens to smack you back for damage whether your target is alive or not.
It was a triple whammy. They killed both the feel and performance of the set while also destroying the single reason so many people liked EM in the first place. More damage isn't the answer. They need to give back that quick ET animation so the set gets it's quick and fluid feel back. Leave the lower stun chances as is and call it even. Let it be the ST killer it used to be. There are clearly sets that specialize in doing 1 thing really awesome (for example SS brutes eclipsing all other brutes on sustained and consistent AoE damage with just ONE AoE attack in the whole set) and these seem to have gone by year after year without being touched. The EM nerfs just seemed both random, horribly implemented, and based on trying to arbitrarily adhere to some kind of formula for animation/damage rather than trying to preserve the feel of the set while fixing the numbers. |
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This is rather over the top. People KNEW Energy Melee was going to get nerfed: it was regarded as overly strong for what it was. The devs even dragged their heels on doing it because so many people liked it.|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
They ruined EM when they nerfed ET. Having that big long TF attack was one thing, and easy to deal with once you got to 32. EM was the fast hitting high damage ST monster. Now it just sucks in every regard because the devs felt the need to needlessly single out 1 average performing set because of a single power that was too good for it's damage per animation time and nerf it to hell and back when there were clearly more broken things they could have spent fixing at the time. Now EM has horrible AoE and slow, clunky ST damage who's best power just happens to smack you back for damage whether your target is alive or not.
It was a triple whammy. They killed both the feel and performance of the set while also destroying the single reason so many people liked EM in the first place. More damage isn't the answer. They need to give back that quick ET animation so the set gets it's quick and fluid feel back. Leave the lower stun chances as is and call it even. Let it be the ST killer it used to be. There are clearly sets that specialize in doing 1 thing really awesome (for example SS brutes eclipsing all other brutes on sustained and consistent AoE damage with just ONE AoE attack in the whole set) and these seem to have gone by year after year without being touched. The EM nerfs just seemed both random, horribly implemented, and based on trying to arbitrarily adhere to some kind of formula for animation/damage rather than trying to preserve the feel of the set while fixing the numbers. |
I would certainly agree that further adjustments need to be taken, but I don't know that Energy Transfer is going to get any. Castle looked at it for awhile and it does higher damage than it should for what it is, because of the health loss. Probably the most you can hope for here is that we'll get a different power customization animation for it that you can switch to if you want (and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the goal at some point).
There are other ways to help the ST strength and feel without touching ET, though. I've tossed them out already, as well as discussing just how "slow and clunky" the set is already.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Yes Energy should get more AoE damage, will it? Probably not
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Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
I have pondered this question ever since taking my level 42 Ice/EM tanker out of hiatus. The most recent opinions regarding Energy Melee have been negative. I have seen numberous post recently either advising that a player not take Energy Melee or claiming that the downgrade has greatly weakened the set. When I looked at the overall perspective , I could not see how simply doubling Energy's Transfer activation time and decreasing the stun in TF would severely weakend the set, except in the case of Brutes who benefit more from fast attacks. While EM has no doubt been weakened, I still find it powerful against single targets. I am a heavy hitter man who loves powers like KO blow , ET, TF, Seisimic smash so while slower I still find EM quite satisfying. Unfortunately, I find myself weaker in teams.
My Tank is quite durable but I am continueously outshown by all other sets because of their greater AOE attacks. I jump into a crowd and hit Whirling Hands then they jump into a crowd and hit Foot Stomp, Lightning Rod/Thunder Strike , Tremor, Combustion/Fire SWORD Circle and make me look like a chump. I then quickly become the secondary tanker/scranker for the team. I just cant contribute enough AOE when compared to others. I do have Taunt toggles but often the mob is dead so quickly that I might a well leave them off. This would be even worse for some other sets like WP and Invul. Energy Melee lost some of its strength with the recent downgrade but it received nothing in return. Its very low AOE damage was not increased in any way. I understand that Whirling Hands is a Tier 5 Power and therefore probably should not match a Tier 9th like Foot Stomp or Lightning Rod. Nevertheless the developers should ponder this question as well. There is another factor; Scrappers getting Energy Melee. If they do and Energy Melee is not changed at all, then why would anyone roll a EM tanker ? Playing a Scrapper would play more to EM's strengths so there is no logical reason to make an EM Tanker other than having that prestigous Tanker symbol by your name. While some may nitpick me on reasons to roll a Tanker, it is not the point. As far as effectiveness goes , there would be no reason to choose an EM Tanker over an EM Scrapper...unless of course there was more AOE in the Tanker EM similar to how Fire Melee has 2 AOE powers for Tankers and only 1 for Scrappers. The solution of giving EM more AOE would be simple, change Total Focus to an AOE like Thunderstrike where it still does Extreme damage to the target but only does moderate damage to enemies around the target. Another solution which would be more controversial is to decrease the damage of Total Focus and change it to an AOE while maintaining only one Extreme damage attack, Energy Transfer and then reinstalling the original faster Energy Transfer animation or speeding up its current animation so the single target damage is not reduced by too much from losing the extreme Total Focus. The end result of the latter change would be slightly less single target damage and significantly greater AOE damage. I myself believe that Energy Melee should have its AOE increased, especially for Tankers who need it most for Arggo control. With its current weak AOE potential, I believe it is an inadequate primary compared to other primaries for maintaining arggo and if Scrappers are giving Energy Melee, there would no reason to play an EM tanker unless some improvement occurs. Since Tankers should not have more damage than Scrappers, AOE improvement is the best way. How would you answer this question ? |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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That's not nearly as cut and dry as you make it. Quite frankly, we don't really know what the devs will nerf, and have a hard time understanding sometimes why they nerf some things, and then turn right around and create new things that, in their respective ways, seem just as or even more powerful. I have a fairly hard time understanding the ET change in light of not only the initial version of the Shields powerset, but then later buffs on top of that.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
This is rather over the top. People KNEW Energy Melee was going to get nerfed: it was regarded as overly strong for what it was. The devs even dragged their heels on doing it because so many people liked it.
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The devs are walking an interesting line. Characters in this game can be, by many standards, pretty wildly powerful compared to their environment. The devs seem to be working with the fact that the game's initial balance was pretty far off the intended mark, but at the same time, that was pretty popular with their players. They seem to be generally willing to let the current general power levels stand while trying to decide what's too powerful for their sense of risk- or time-vs-reward.
It's not at all clear to me that many of us players can make reasonable assertions about what "clearly" will be nerfed, or not, in such an environment. If we strictly assume that anything as "clearly overpowered" as ET was should be nerfed, I think we would have a lot of additional downgrades in our future.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The old ET would have a DPA of 500 for stalkers, or 700 with BU...|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If we strictly assume that anything as "clearly overpowered" as ET was should be nerfed, I think we would have a lot of additional downgrades in our future.
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The old ET would have a DPA of 380 for Brutes, 722 with 90% Fury, and 874 with 90% Fury plus BU...
If that's not clearly overpowered, then nothing is. It had a DPA 90% higher than the current melee champ, Seismic Smash. Go ahead and place the old ET on a bell curve and notice that the range of the worst attack to the second best attack (Seismic Smash) is LESS than the difference between Seismic Smash and ET.
Statistically, it was clearly overpowered and there's just no debating that. Mechanically, it was clearly overpowered, as so many people came to define an entire set by a single skill.
But there's really no point in rehashing all of this this. We've calcified all our positions on the ET debate long ago. It's like beating the fossil of a dead horse, there's no gooey splat anymore.
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The real problem is that ET was the only thing Energy Melee had going for it. At a bare minimum, it should have remained the best melee DPA champion, since it's the only melee power out there that eats a chunk of your health. That train has left the station, though, and I'm not seeing any real chance of ET getting a new animation. In fact, I'm not seeing any real chance of anything in Energy Melee getting a new animation. My suspicion would be that if anything happens, it will be a normalization of Whirling Hands to a more standard AoE attack in terms of damage.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
The old ET would have a DPA of 500 for stalkers, or 700 with BU...
The old ET would have a DPA of 380 for Brutes, 722 with 90% Fury, and 874 with 90% Fury plus BU... If that's not clearly overpowered, then nothing is. It had a DPA 90% higher than the current melee champ, Seismic Smash. Go ahead and place the old ET on a bell curve and notice that the range of the worst attack to the second best attack (Seismic Smash) is LESS than the difference between Seismic Smash and ET. Statistically, it was clearly overpowered and there's just no debating that. Mechanically, it was clearly overpowered, as so many people came to define an entire set by a single skill. But there's really no point in rehashing all of this this. We've calcified all our positions on the ET debate long ago. It's like beating the fossil of a dead horse, there's no gooey splat anymore. |
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
I'd just like to add...having played Energy Melee to lvl 50 on a tank, and various levels on other ATs (including more tanks)...Energy Melee was only OPed in one area...
PVP.
PvE wise, EM was far from OPed. It was what it was a burst damage, single target set.
Could it get good DPS, yeah, at the cost of some serious survivabiliy (it requires that much +RCH).
Saddly, the set just seems very slow now. :/ For me at least. And that's all due to ET's new animation (though I'm willing to admit, I just might hate the new animation THAT MUCH, so it seems to be even longer than it really is).
Total Focus being a long animation never bother me before the ET change. I loved it. I still love the animation. But now...the set is really...bleh now and it's all because of the animation change.
TF loses a mag of stun *shrug* didnt phase me. For a set packed full of chances to stun, this really didn't bother me at all. They could of lowered it to mag 2, I wouldn't have cared.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
It seems, then, that the real issue with Energy Transfer is in defining the 'value' of the Hit-points trade. That self-damage mechanic throws off all calculations based on other factors. So, Energy Transfer cannot be 'normalized' by the usual DPE or DPA frameworks.
Worse, the 'value' of that self-damage can vary wildly, depending on AT, defensive Powerset, and even Build factors. Essentially the question of 'how many HPs do you have and how easily can you get them back?'
Yet the health-sacrifice is at the Core of ET's power... Tricky.
Be Well!
Fireheart
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That was another thing I was okay with when they decided it was time to change EM. Have ET take a bigger chunk of health.|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
It seems, then, that the real issue with Energy Transfer is in defining the 'value' of the Hit-points trade. That self-damage mechanic throws off all calculations based on other factors. So, Energy Transfer cannot be 'normalized' by the usual DPE or DPA frameworks.
Worse, the 'value' of that self-damage can vary wildly, depending on AT, defensive Powerset, and even Build factors. Essentially the question of 'how many HPs do you have and how easily can you get them back?' Yet the health-sacrifice is at the Core of ET's power... Tricky. Be Well! Fireheart |
Would those with serious IO investment really notice it? No. But that's what IOs tend to do, cover power picks drawbacks/weaknesses.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I'm mostly /signed to the sentiment in this thread.
I'd like to see WH become a bit more effective, damage-wise, especially if it is going to be the only AoE in the set.
I question the value of the EM Stun power. I took it on my tank to see if I could figure out how to get the intended value out of it, but ... it's really just a waste of a power, so far as I can tell.
I like the way EM has damage that is non-lethal. I like the side effect of stun, which is generally more valuable for mitigation than slow, sleep, or fear effects. I think the stun effect and energy damage help make the set unique. But it does seem like it is at a disadvantage to other tanker sets.
I could go for a solution for the set that involves changing Stun, a basically superfluous power.
I could go for faster power animations.
I could also go for a solution that gives the set more control by giving unmodifiable PBAoE effects to ET and/or TF.
It has been mentioned that one reason for leaving ET and TF as single target is the desire to avoid changing IO sets from Melee Damage to PBAoE damage. What I've not seen mentioned much in this thread is the possibility that these powers can remain single target for damage, but also have unmodifiable PBAoE effects.
Unmodifiable PBAoE effects that could accompany ET / TF without breaking the theme, in my opinion, could include: -def, -res, knockdown, immob, sleep (shaking), -rec, -regen, -recharge, -end. Personally, I would prefer to avoid using stun again as the PBAoE, but I'll take it if I must, because at least it would make it easier to hold aggro. I would also avoid using a kb modifier, as - for one thing - that already exists as a modifier for a similar power in another set.
If the inclination is to give ET and/or TF a chance to stun in PBAoE, then I would recommend replacing the Stun power with something completely different, like maybe a short-range cone attack with knockdown using a modified Jacob's Ladder animation.
Just my two inf.
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So....let me see if I get this right;|
Originally Posted by BrandX
That was another thing I was okay with when they decided it was time to change EM. Have ET take a bigger chunk of health.
Would those with serious IO investment really notice it? No. But that's what IOs tend to do, cover power picks drawbacks/weaknesses. |
It's ok to change a power that makes it so that people without IOs are penalised more for using it?
I've already posted my two pennies, but that made me raise an eyebrow.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Which does zero damage to the user, of course...|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
The old ET would have a DPA of 500 for stalkers, or 700 with BU...
The old ET would have a DPA of 380 for Brutes, 722 with 90% Fury, and 874 with 90% Fury plus BU ... It had a DPA 90% higher than the current melee champ, Seismic Smash. |
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Go ahead and place the old ET on a bell curve and notice that the range of the worst attack to the second best attack (Seismic Smash) is LESS than the difference between Seismic Smash and ET. Statistically, it was clearly overpowered and there's just no debating that. |
I'm sorry, you're not disproving my point.
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| Mechanically, it was clearly overpowered, as so many people came to define an entire set by a single skill. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If the devs do infact balance the game around SOs, and not IOs...|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So....let me see if I get this right;
It's ok to change a power that makes it so that people without IOs are penalised more for using it? I've already posted my two pennies, but that made me raise an eyebrow. |
Then any changes to EM would be, because of how it's used with SOs.
I was just saying, that if they had gone with a bigger -HP route with ET, instead of the animation change, then people could likely make it so the -HP isnt as bad.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I never saw this great DPS from Energy Melee.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Which does zero damage to the user, of course...
And now that it's not anymore, we can execute that exact same argument with a plethora of other powers. Are you the arbiter of what range outside the bell curve something is allowed to exist in? Who dictates that DPA something that's not allowed to have a 90% outlier? What's the maximum outlier on AoE DPA? On AoE DPS? On solo XP/hour? On combination of mez capability and self-mitigation? Damage dealing and self-mitigation? I'm sorry, you're not disproving my point. Yes, of course, no one took the set because it combined awesome DPS with powerful stuns and an exotic damage type. No, I think you overstate this argument. Yes, if it had no stuns and dealt pure smashing damage I could agree ET would have wholly defined the set, but that's not the case, and thus I say your assertion here is simply false. |
I did see great burst damage. But where was this awesome DPS?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Dark Melee was designed with similar intention: loads of utility and single target damage. It's ST damage was lacking though so they tweaked the set and turned it's self heal (that did low damage) into a full attack that still self heals. This made wonders for the set's intention of ST damage.
I don't think the issue is about sidelining any power, but instead making a set that has a better maximum performance at what it was designed to, and for it to be more firendly to more users. Users that dislike high recharge/slow casting attacks would have a very decent attack chain with Barrage/Energy Punch/BoneSmasher/Stun (take out one of those if you go for a high recharge build.)