Should Energy Melee Get More AOE Damage ?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-12-09 21:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Has anyone said 'Scuse me guv'nor?' and poked Castle with this thread yet?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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1. Rather have old ET animation with less damage
2. How about making it a delayed death strike: Old ET animation with self-damage, a 3 tick clock above the target's head (like self-destruct), then the "packet" of damage delivered to target (you still can continue attacking during count-down). Might be better thematically with Eagles Claw... ;p
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Awww man, you guys are making me regret rolling up a DA/EM. I love my character concept but it sounds like the upper tier powers blow; nothing sends me deleting a great concept character faster than a low fun-factor in play.
At level 25 his KB hole (working on that but WW isn't cooperating) and his craptastic ability to mitigate incoming damage via stuns or whatnot is making playing him hellish. I was hoping Whirling Hands next level would help, but it sounds like that won't be the case.
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I think it a safe bet that Castle has probably been poked enough about EM to force him to have a constant IV running blood replacement therapy.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Has anyone said 'Scuse me guv'nor?' and poked Castle with this thread yet?
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Be well, people of CoH.
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DA tank...|
Originally Posted by Majek
Awww man, you guys are making me regret rolling up a DA/EM. I love my character concept but it sounds like the upper tier powers blow; nothing sends me deleting a great concept character faster than a low fun-factor in play.
At level 25 his KB hole (working on that but WW isn't cooperating) and his craptastic ability to mitigate incoming damage via stuns or whatnot is making playing him hellish. I was hoping Whirling Hands next level would help, but it sounds like that won't be the case. |
*shudder*
I deleted my DB/DA Brute, because of how craptastic a combo it ended up being...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well, at least he's not pulling his hair out like with Oil Slick Arrow.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I think it a safe bet that Castle has probably been poked enough about EM to force him to have a constant IV running blood replacement therapy.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Number one rule in a game: do not let other people dictate what is fun for you. To some extent in an MMO, you do want play nice with a team and get along with people, but there will be smacktards that try to ruin your good day as well. So don't let them get to you.|
Originally Posted by Majek
Awww man, you guys are making me regret rolling up a DA/EM. I love my character concept but it sounds like the upper tier powers blow; nothing sends me deleting a great concept character faster than a low fun-factor in play.
At level 25 his KB hole (working on that but WW isn't cooperating) and his craptastic ability to mitigate incoming damage via stuns or whatnot is making playing him hellish. I was hoping Whirling Hands next level would help, but it sounds like that won't be the case. |
Same thing for your power choices. If you find EM to be fun, don't let someone else's opinion get you down. There isn't any melee powerset that isn't able to make its way well in CoX... some are stronger than others, but they all do fine.
People's opinions about EM are exacerbated by the fact that it was nerfed. People knew it was coming, but still hated it when it happened. Castle as much as said at the time that they knew they had to nerf it for a long time (prior to actually making the in-game adjustments), but held off on it because of how unpopular they knew it would be.
Energy Melee could probably use some love, of course, I'm just saying that you should take some of the DOOM! in this thread with a grain of salt. The first several attacks animate fast, and for the later ones, just plan out your attack well: using a 2-second attack on a boss that has its health plummeting from everyone in your team attacking it is just asking for the attack to finish animating when he drops.
By the numbers, EM could use some love of some sort (either to up it in the ST category to justify the lack of AOE more, or something to help with the AOE), but sometimes advocating for the buffs it needs gets drowned out in the crowd of voices annoyed about the nerf/set (still).
I have to take my own thinking about it with a grain of salt, for instance. Before the change to Barrage, I loved EM on my lowbie tanker, as he had a near continuous attack chain just with the first three powers: never mind the fact that Barrage did hardly any damage. After the change, I no longer had a full attack chain and disliked it for that reason... but I DID like the fact that I actually did damage with Barrage. Then I realized that the added recharge can be trimmed with IOs and using other attacks, and that when I do use Barrage, it will actually do something, as opposed to making me feel like it's doing something. Even thought it's not.
Just my two cents on the issue. Just go and enjoy what you like in the game.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Animation wise, I love Energy Melee.
The glowy fists, the attack animation for Barrage (one of my favorite melee animations in the game...love the 1 - 2 punch) and Total Focus...love it
The fact that TF took so long to work, wasn't so bad, when it's other attacks didn't take to long.
I wish Haymaker would get changed, just because it's the same animation as Air Superiority.
Also love the WH animation.
I found the stun of EM to be plenty in the way of mitigation as well.
I never found it to be the best set, but I loved playing it, untill the ET animation change. That's what felt like the nerf to me.
TF getting a lower mag stun, no problem.
Having two attacks that felt to take forever, and ET's new animation looking ugly to me, and watching my attacks go SWOOSH on already dead mobs, just ruined it for me.
I'd have rather seen ET's damage reduced (and kept the -life effect to it), than get that new animation. I even suggested going that route when the changes were coming.
And even before the changes, the set never screamed "PvE god" to me. Yeah, it was a great set in PvP at the time, but PvE...it wasn't all that at all. :/
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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You're nuts. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
And even before the changes, the set never screamed "PvE god" to me. Yeah, it was a great set in PvP at the time, but PvE...it wasn't all that at all. :/
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ET on a 1 sec animation was what made EM the AV-soloer of choice for Brutes.
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Okay, can someone remind me what the changes to EM were?|
Originally Posted by Clouded
You're nuts.
ET on a 1 sec animation was what made EM the AV-soloer of choice for Brutes. |
I believe they were dropping TF's stun from Mag 4 to Mag 3, changing/lengthening ET's animation, and upping Barrage's damage while also increasing its endurance use and recharge. Am I missing something?
If not, it seems really odd to me that increasing ET's animation by 1.67 seconds nerfed the set THAT badly. Yes, that's now 2.67 seconds, which certainly does feel longer than one second. At the same time, it does a big chunk of damage more than Greater Fire Sword, which animates only .33 seconds faster (mildly noticeable, but not that much). And I don't hear people whining about GFS much.
Was Energy Melee that much in the lead before? It doesn't seem like 1.67 seconds on one power is enough to drop it down and make it as bad as some people are saying. Or are we now looking evaluating the performance of powers in a different way than before the changes to EM (and how much do changes to other powersets account for this? I'm thinking the dropping of "redraw time" from the weapon powersets, etc.)?
I'm also curious about this. How much of the disgruntlement with Energy Melee is purely by the numbers after the nerf, and how much is it with aesthetic? I hear a lot of grumbling about the animation look of ET and how the set is slower now, so I'm trying to separate the emotion from the reality.
I don't have quite as much issue with EM that some here seem to, so I also wonder if it's partially a difference in expectation. I have plenty of experience with longer animating attacks from Fiery Aura (the AOEs and GFS are all between 2-3 seconds), Shadow Maul, Full Auto, etc. So I'm comfortable with longer animations and knowing when to fire them (I generally don't have targets drop before the attack I selected goes off).
Anyway, just some honest questions to dig down into the issue.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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In fact, it feels 2.67 times as long.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Yes, that's now 2.67 seconds, which certainly does feel longer than one second.
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Imagine you have a long commute in traffic to get home, and it normally takes one hour. Does one 2.67 hours feel a lot longer than one hour?
There is a big perception thing about people killing your target, and for good reason. People kill the target of other long-activating powers, like GFS or Headsplitter, all the time. But it doesn't stick out in people's mind as much because none of those other deal the user damage if a teammate happens to kill off the enemy first.
If ET was the only power in this set that took that kind of time, and if it didn't deal noticeable self damage when it finished animating, you're probably right, it wouldn't be a really big deal. But EM is the only set I can think of that has two single-target attacks that take this kind of activation time. Sure, they both deal "tier-9" sized damage. The issue is that attack chain efficiency is determined by the DPA of your attacks, where DPA is damage per second of activation time. Reducing the DPA of EM's best attack by a factor of 2.67 is a major reduction in the overall single-target DPS efficiency of the set - none of its other powers are that great for builiding a good chain. So basically this introduces a bottleneck that makes EM's attack chain extremely insensitive to the benefits of +Recharge. That may not sound like a big deal, but when all EM was very good at was single-target DPS, and when so many other sets can now outstrip it so easily because they are not insensitive to +Recharge, it leaves EM looking for a reason to be picked by people who are interested in playing a hard-hitting character.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I have to ask if this was with IO sets, setup to solo such things? Because my WP/EM tank was IO'ed out for survival, +RCH was the least of her worries, and I was usually waiting on attacks to recharge after the initial release of attacks.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
You're nuts.
ET on a 1 sec animation was what made EM the AV-soloer of choice for Brutes. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yeah I find most of the complaints a bit overexaggerated. For a Tanker , I could not see how the downgrade would weaken the set that much. In single target damage it is still solid and I certainly do not get frustrated when my target dies before TF or ET strikes because most of the time I knew that there was a high chance they would anyway. If I miss or they die before the attack lands, oh well, there is always the next engagement. As for the animations being insensitive to recharge, I already find EM attacks to recharge fairly fast so I dont have as much use for greater recharge in my secondary. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Okay, can someone remind me what the changes to EM were?
I believe they were dropping TF's stun from Mag 4 to Mag 3, changing/lengthening ET's animation, and upping Barrage's damage while also increasing its endurance use and recharge. Am I missing something? If not, it seems really odd to me that increasing ET's animation by 1.67 seconds nerfed the set THAT badly. Yes, that's now 2.67 seconds, which certainly does feel longer than one second. At the same time, it does a big chunk of damage more than Greater Fire Sword, which animates only .33 seconds faster (mildly noticeable, but not that much). And I don't hear people whining about GFS much. Was Energy Melee that much in the lead before? It doesn't seem like 1.67 seconds on one power is enough to drop it down and make it as bad as some people are saying. Or are we now looking evaluating the performance of powers in a different way than before the changes to EM (and how much do changes to other powersets account for this? I'm thinking the dropping of "redraw time" from the weapon powersets, etc.)? I'm also curious about this. How much of the disgruntlement with Energy Melee is purely by the numbers after the nerf, and how much is it with aesthetic? I hear a lot of grumbling about the animation look of ET and how the set is slower now, so I'm trying to separate the emotion from the reality. I don't have quite as much issue with EM that some here seem to, so I also wonder if it's partially a difference in expectation. I have plenty of experience with longer animating attacks from Fiery Aura (the AOEs and GFS are all between 2-3 seconds), Shadow Maul, Full Auto, etc. So I'm comfortable with longer animations and knowing when to fire them (I generally don't have targets drop before the attack I selected goes off). Anyway, just some honest questions to dig down into the issue. |
I do feel that the AOE should be buffed. EM is no longer the undisputed ST damage king so there is no justiication for the lack of AOE.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Okay, can someone remind me what the changes to EM were?
I believe they were dropping TF's stun from Mag 4 to Mag 3, changing/lengthening ET's animation, and upping Barrage's damage while also increasing its endurance use and recharge. Am I missing something? If not, it seems really odd to me that increasing ET's animation by 1.67 seconds nerfed the set THAT badly. Yes, that's now 2.67 seconds, which certainly does feel longer than one second. At the same time, it does a big chunk of damage more than Greater Fire Sword, which animates only .33 seconds faster (mildly noticeable, but not that much). And I don't hear people whining about GFS much. Was Energy Melee that much in the lead before? It doesn't seem like 1.67 seconds on one power is enough to drop it down and make it as bad as some people are saying. Or are we now looking evaluating the performance of powers in a different way than before the changes to EM (and how much do changes to other powersets account for this? I'm thinking the dropping of "redraw time" from the weapon powersets, etc.)? I'm also curious about this. How much of the disgruntlement with Energy Melee is purely by the numbers after the nerf, and how much is it with aesthetic? I hear a lot of grumbling about the animation look of ET and how the set is slower now, so I'm trying to separate the emotion from the reality. I don't have quite as much issue with EM that some here seem to, so I also wonder if it's partially a difference in expectation. I have plenty of experience with longer animating attacks from Fiery Aura (the AOEs and GFS are all between 2-3 seconds), Shadow Maul, Full Auto, etc. So I'm comfortable with longer animations and knowing when to fire them (I generally don't have targets drop before the attack I selected goes off). Anyway, just some honest questions to dig down into the issue. |
My Energy Melee user was a Tanker. So I wasn't even looking to be the best at single target DPS...or the best at Melee at all...my WP/EM wasn't even setup to have a nonstop Attack String.
ET's animation became ugly and long. :/
However, even with that, I gave it a fair try...and just found things made worse by I was in fact using the set's two main attacks on enemies the team already defeated all the time.
I'd say the difference with Fire Melee's GFS, is the rest of the set doesn't suffer go slow. Look at Incinerate, it goes off fast. The other attacks don't feel to take forever.
EM has 2 that do. EM is also a single target only set, for the most part. And I say that, loving the animation for Whirling Hands (and it's equivalent in other sets).
Then there's the animation to ET now. Not only is it longer, but it looks like they were going for a convulsing assassin strike.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Anyone who's soloing AVs w/o an Illusion Controller or a Mastermind is very likely investing in IO sets to do so.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I have to ask if this was with IO sets, setup to solo such things? Because my WP/EM tank was IO'ed out for survival, +RCH was the least of her worries, and I was usually waiting on attacks to recharge after the initial release of attacks.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
ET has the third highest DPA of any attack that Brutes possess when Arcana Time is factored. It seems that people are still fixated on the ET reanimation, when only Clobber and Seismic Smash outperform it in DPA. It's probably best to accept that damage, recharge, and animation aren't changing on this skill.
So, where else do people see EM receiving improvements? EP, BS, and Barrage are all comparable to other attacks from a variety of sets. It would be more productive to look elsewhere and accept that ET was changed and is still a top tier attack.
My suggestion would be to lower the animation time of Total Focus. Just speed it up a tad, and bring it's animation time to 2.5 seconds, granting it a slightly lower DPA than KO Blow. All of the skills that involve that ponderous jump into the air (Thunder Strike, Tremor) should have the animation increased, if not for balance then at least for aesthetics-- the animation looks beyond stupid.
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I figure as much. Just didn't want to go the route of assumption. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Anyone who's soloing AVs w/o an Illusion Controller or a Mastermind is very likely investing in IO sets to do so.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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That's very likely because you're looking at the one power's performance and not looking at what it does to the set's available attack chain.|
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
Yeah I find most of the complaints a bit overexaggerated. For a Tanker , I could not see how the downgrade would weaken the set that much.
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At the time this all happened, Starsman was active on a project of putting up charts showing comparisons of the various powersets' attack chains. Initially, he showed EM still doing quite well after the ET change, down from a serious lead over its peers in single-target DPS.
Then he realized he was counting the self damage as part of its DPA.
As I recall, as soon as he realized this, he immediately pointed out that he felt that the change was too severe and that something else needed to be done to help compensate. As I recall, this included the improvement to Barrage.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Do any of the attacks that exceed or have dpa anywhere near ET also have the negative effect of doing damage to the attacker? Out of curiosity...
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
ET has the third highest DPA of any attack that Brutes possess when Arcana Time is factored. It seems that people are still fixated on the ET reanimation, when only Clobber and Seismic Smash outperform it in DPA.
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While we're discussing EM's single target damage, how about a look from the other side - what sets can compete with EM's awful AoE damage? Is it a race to last place, or does Dark Melee beat it out?
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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I suppose if you slotted Soul Drain and Dark Consumption for damage, it might be OK, though the recharge on those is so long that it is unlikely. DM is probably still the worst in AOE. |
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
While we're discussing EM's single target damage, how about a look from the other side - what sets can compete with EM's awful AoE damage? Is it a race to last place, or does Dark Melee beat it out?
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Though one does have to note that DM has a high damage self heal, rather than self harm.
Too many alts to list.
Dark Melee at least has Shadow Maul - while not wonderfully easy to use, it does have a very nice damage for its recharge and endurance cost. Despite is huge animation time, its DPA is actually fairly respectable, which is all the more impressive because it is a (small) cone.
Martial Arts is significantly weak in AoE potential. The last I recalled, Dragon's Tail was too expensive and too long to recharge for its damage - probably more than its KD component accounts for. That knockdown is quite useful most of the time, but it doesn't really mean MA is very effective at AoE. Sadly, MA suffers badly from this kind of unclear focus in general - despite its issues, EM does have very high likelyhood of single-target stuns and an "exotic" damage type. MA has always suffered from not really seeming to know what it's trying to be good at.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah SM can be leveraged to good effect, but I'd say WH is a better AOE. More targets and appreciably better area do make up for a lot. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Dark Melee at least has Shadow Maul - while not wonderfully easy to use, it does have a very nice damage for its recharge and endurance cost. Despite is huge animation time, its DPA is actually fairly respectable, which is all the more impressive because it is a (small) cone.
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Don't know MA, so I won't comment there. The cursory look I gave it before making my latest stalker said 'go dual blade' to me.
Too many alts to list.
I don't think I can agree. I guess there's a lot of potential meaning for the word "better". If I leverage SM well, I can kill multiple foes with a DM character a whole lot faster than I ever can using WH, even though I can more consistently hit more foes with WH. Part of that is that DM has such a low recharge, and part of it is that it deals a lot more damage. But that also gets into looking at the whole package. DM has Soul Drain, and SM backed by a decent Soul Drain is very nice.
If "better" is meant to include "can be used without some position jockeying", then yes, WH is probably better. What I find is that, with that jockeying, I can catch enough foes in SM to make it seriously worth the time spent jockeying. (Note - this is perspective is formed based on our increased melee ranges, which did benefit SM.) This is particularly true nowadays with the ability to get large spawns even when solo.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I found EM to be a decent Tank set but not very effective for Brutes. On my tank, I synergized the secondary with Dark to get use out of Oppressive Gloom + EM's stunning capability. With Death Shroud, holding aggro was very easy and I'd pop a Wh hands when recharged to stun a few more minions, etc when stacked with OG. I could keep 5-10 critters stunned at any given time (including bosses) if WH chance for stun played in my favor.
So, EM is good for crowd control when paired with Dark Armor but I have a hard time finding other situations to boast about this set.
Overall, I'd give a EM a 5/10 and I don't plan to play it ever again unless serious changes are made or possibly to try it out once proliferated to Scrappers.
I have two alts with EM, a stalker and a retired tanker. I don't see playing the tanker again. The stalker isn't so bad since leveraging crits, he can still do mean damage, and on big teams (about the only time I dig him out), he gets a lot of crits.
I don't see myself bothering with the set again though. It just doesn't have enough appeal to bother.
Too many alts to list.