Should Energy Melee Get More AOE Damage ?

Tier matters only within the context of powerset design, not within the context of power design. There is a significant difference between the two that most people don't grasp. Is Unyielding more powerful than Indomitable Will? It's pretty hard to argue since, even though they perform the same function (mez protection), they have disparate effects (Indomitable Will provides more types of mez prot while Unyielding provides more survivability). Their tiers are different but the powers are functionally balanced (especially within the confines of the powerset as a whole).

The fact that KO Blow recharges slower than the other equivalent tier 9s (which, could, in and of itself, be due to the fact that it has 2 full powered secondary effects) isn't due to early positioning. If that were true, every power that was a different tier than "normal" would be modified accordingly (re: QR and FH in WP and Regen). KO Blow recharges slower because the powerset as a whole is completely borked by the presence of Rage (which is disgustingly imbalancing) which functionally gives all of the attacks that are ever used by the set a 41% increase in damage (175% +dam compared to 95% +dam) and the fact that the power needed to be modified in this way (thanks to heuristic balancing) simply demonstrates why SS is such a bad powerset to determine precedent by.

The entire point I was attempting to make (way back when) was that SS is, by virtue of the fact that it already breaks rules in virtually every power in order to attain some semblance of balance, a horrible powerset to be comparing anything to where balance is concerned. Comparing EM to it in an attempt to make specific powers appear in need of retrofit is an exercise in futility since SS as a whole would need a retrofit before any of the powers in it could be considered balanced individually.

So, changing the animation time of a single power on a long recharge fundamentally altered the entire feel of the power set for you? You're precisely the kind of person I'm describing. You may not want to admit it, but you were attempting to continue using ET at every possible interval rather than at times in which it would be used to take down harder targets. That is explicitly refusing to learn to use it at more opportune time.

Even up to the point where ET got the animation time change, EM was one of the most popular PvE sets because it offered such excellent ST damage (and tangential control potential via the chances to stun). PvE isn't all about AoE damage for everyone (and not even for all number crunchers because many people rolled EM because they loved the pink pom-poms). People that were building EM Tankers for PvE specifically knew that EM wasn't a great AoE machine (Whirling Hands' abysmal performance has been known for a long time), but it was inordinately good at ST damage (thanks to ET being the be-all-end-all of DPA), which made them go for it still. The fact that you, functionally, got 2 tier 9s, one of which was better than any tier 9 out there because it hit so hard and so fast, kept people coming knowing that they were sacrificing AoE damage. Hell, people still rolled DM for PvE before it got the changes to MG and Siphon because it was good at ST damage and completely sucked at AoE damage (which it still does).

Yeah, that was my bad. I'm used to dealing with the Blaster versions of the powers which have different damage values for Energy Punch and Bonesmasher. Even so, Tanker TF is still a massive blowhard of a power when you realize that it is a tier 9 being compared to the tier 2 and 3 attacks of the set, when virtually every other tier 9 ST attack power (except for Eagles' Claw) easily outclasses the lower tier ST attacks within the set (and the reason for TF's ***-tasticnes is due exclusively to an excessive animation time).

The fact that changing the animation time of a single, long recharge power changes so much about the set as a whole tells me that you were relying on ET completely too much. The animation time of the power was changed to not make it a whole magnitude better than any other attack in the game. No set needs to have an attack that has a DPA completely that outclasses even nukes in order to be playable. The fact that so many people feel as if the set is completely different and no longer playable because that one power was brought back down from the stratosphere should tell you something about how much the power needed to be brought back down.

You can't read, can you?

Try the last sentence in the paragraph that the quoted bit is replying to.

If you're going to get completely nitpicky, though, then you're wrong here. Haymaker = Bone Smasher = Stone Mallet; are all of those unbalanced individually?



Yes, the feel of a power that recharged in 6 seconds (with slotting, Lightning Reflexes, and Hasten) changing altered the feel of the set dramatically. "Long recharge"?! Are you seriously trying to use the text descriptions - which don't make any sense when compared to other powersets even within the same AT - as an excuse for saying that? But no, it's "zomg! you just didn't want to change when you used it!" Once again... learn to read. How about the rest of the paragraph that you quoted? I even through in a clause about how "sure, it counts if you're going to be an idiot about it just in order to fit everything into your little pet theory".

Now, previously was I using Energy Transfer about as often as it recharged? Mostly - and I usually switched targets right before using it so that it dropped something from full health, too. But since you're being deliberately obtuse, let me explain it to you in depth:

- ET was used because it fit within the attack chain smoothly instead of having a large amount of dead time - Total Focus, with the second highest DPA in the set, was skipped because it had a lot of dead time. Gee, I was really optimizing there, huh?
- I tried substituting with Barrage, but simply dislike the animation (which was why I didn't take it in the first place), using ET when I previously was using Total Focus in order to keep short animations in the chain.
- I. Did. Not. Like. The. Feel. Of. The. Set.

Now look at the second step there. Gee, that seems to be diametrically opposite of your statement. Maybe you should shut up about why people do things when the only why you can answer is why you would do something.

Now, see that last part? Read it. Read it again. Read it a third time. Take a peek at it again. Then stop being an idiot. Now read it again. Then go back to kindergarten and learn to read so you can read it again. DO YOU GET IT YET? IS IT STARTING TO SINK THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL?

Here's a thought - why don't you only speak for yourself?

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Because. A. Single. Power. Was. Changed.

Read what you are saying rather than complaining that I'm not reading. I am reading what you're saying, and and what you're saying is that the change to a single power on a long recharge (20 seconds is a long base recharge for an attack, no matter how you attempt to obfuscate it) somehow fundamentally altered the way in which the entire set operated (it didn't, unless the entire operation of the set was built around ET's borkedness). That's like insisting that changing Frozen Aura so that it actually did damage fundamentally altered the way the entire set operated.

Not ENTIRELY true. TF was also given a lower mag stun.

But I don't see why this matters anyway. There are other sets that accomplish what they do based on one or two powers. Reducing the effectiveness of that power would quite obviously reduce the effectiveness of the set.

Don't you think SS would be affected if Foot Stomp was reduced to an 8 foot radius? It's the only AoE in the set so it would have a serious impact on the set as a whole, "because a single power was changed." Don't you think the overall feel or use of Dark Melee would be changed if Siphon Life no longer healed? What would happen if Rain of Arrows was replaced with a standard nuke with a 360 recharge, if Fulcrum Shift only gave half its boost, if Shield Charge was single target, Flashfire became mag 2, or Decoys could be killed by regular foes? Do you think any and all changes to those powers are welcome because it's "just one power" in a set?

In a way, EM was reliant on ET. EM has poor mitigation and poor AoE. All it had going for it was high ST damage (to some degree, at the expense of taking more damage yourself). If its capability to deal ST damage is reduced, no matter the method, that means the set was altered in a negative way that reduced the overall effect of the set.

EM's ST damage wasn't "built around ET" so much as built around all of the ST attacks in the set flowing together to make a fluid attack chain that deals high damage. The longer the cast time is, the slower the chain is, and the less effective the entire set is. How effective just Bone Smasher or just Energy Transfer are doesn't matter because you can't build an attack chain out of just Bone Smasher. And once you factor in ET's slower cast time, it alters the whole attack chain and the entire set is weaker than it used to be.

No, because that's a strict improvement to the power. You can't say increasing the cast time of a power by 167% is the same thing as adding damage to an otherwise useless power. Or that it could in any way be an improvement to the set, if nothing else is offered as compensation. It'd be more like making Foot Stomp's cast time 5.6 seconds and claiming that doesn't alter the set in any meaningful way.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Frozen Aura's change did change the way the set felt. In a positive way.

ET's change made the set feel different in a negative way.

I keep wanting to relevel EM, but I'm not to fond of brutes, and EM lacks WH for stalkers.

Maybe if I can figure out a concept that really strikes a chord with me.

But the set was changed. The change may not have been all that earth shattering, and didn't effect the DPS of the set...however, for someone who didn't use an optimal DPS chain, the set feels different and not in a fun way. :/

If it helps, I didn't even notice the change in TF's stun. But I never worried about EM's stun. I found it more of just being a bonus.

My first and most prolific experience with EM was on my EM/ELA Brute. When playing the Brute AT, fast paced attacks are a must to generate Fury to acceptable levels quickly. Many Brutes, including myself, would use ET quite often, once Fury was 50% or more, as part of our attack chain since the self-damage could be shrugged off in most instances. However, with the additional 1.67s added to the animation this same style of play was affected and all but eliminated.

I changed my playstyle after the ET animation was increased and I adapted. I then shelved my Brute because I didn't get the same enjoyment as I once did. I then found SS/WP, Fire/SR and Claws/INV to be far more exciting and fast paced to match the playstyle I found enjoyable on the Brute AT.

Conversely, I made a Dark/EM Tank the smae time these changes hit live since my testing lead me to believe that EM was now more suited to a Tank Secondary. The Tank AT does not need to worry about the fast paced attacks and can concentrate on dropping a large burst to LTs and Bosses.

So, the animation change drastically changed the way the set played for my Brute, but also gave Tanks that "big hitting set" some were clamoring to play.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

To be fair, ET, TF and Barrage were all changed. Though the changes to ET were the most dramatic

I couldnt agree more. I think the people who had the most difficulty with the EM changes were the people who like alot of overkill damage. When I play any damage AT I always do an attack chain that will take the critter down in the fewest hits without much if any overkill damage. I dont care about DPS because it flatout doesnt matter in this game outside of AV fights.

The bottom line is, where you get powers in a set is very important, and clearly affects the quality of the set.


LOL, sure if you're balancing it against the turd that is EM, and if the game used a set standard throughout (but they clearly do not, as evidenced by SS...). But the devs should not try to balance popular sets against weak ones by adjusting the popular sets, they should adjust the lesser played ones to the popular ones. In other words, make EM more like SS so more people could enjoy EM, you know, to create a more enjoyable product and keep more customers happy. (And I don't mean make it exactly like SS, but improve it so more people enjoy it.) Or they could go the other way and match sets their customers enjoy to lesser played ones by nerfing them, which will lead to unhappy customers.

What FS "Should Have" is your opinion. What it DOES have, lots of people seem to enjoy, and if it were altered without buffing the rest of the set, SS would be a joke, and the devs would have lots of unhappy customers, just like when they nerfed ET, which was EM's set defining power. And this talk of a mythical set 'calculation' standard (and I say mythical based on the fact that you continually mention sets that 'break' the 'rules') apparently doesn't work very well if it was applied to EM - just look at all the cobwebs forming on the set, while SS, which apparently ignores them, is very popular. The devs should stop trying to crowbar sets into these standards (if in fact that is what they are doing), and concentrate more on making the set fun to play. And right now, EM, which was once fun to play for many, is no longer. And you can keep claiming it was only about numbers, despite the fact people continually testify to the fact it was about how the set 'felt' and 'played', and I, along with many others, will continually tell you it was more than that.



First of all, I disagree with you claiming DM is 'definitely' worse in aoe dmg, unless you never play dm and don't know how to use shadow maul. And it's not fair to disregard SD and DC because they do contribute to aoe dmg and abilities, like endurance drain/gain, and a nice to hit and dmg buff from multiple enemies. And I'm sure you wouldn't even try to argue that the sets, DM and EM are on par ability-wise, at least I would hope not.

Secondly, your other comparison, MA, simply supports my assertion that EM is a weak set that needs buffing, because people have been begging for MA to be reworked for ages.

Right, it's aoe abilities are tied or worse than the other sets at the bottom of the barrell in aoe damage and ability. Of the two you named, one set is far better due to unique abilities, and the other is a set people have been begging to get reworked for ages.

Actually, I think the devs who 'fixed' em were thinking the same way you are. Now very few people still play em and they pissed off a lot of their customers.

I was using SS to show that you don't have to use a complicated, set system with rigid rules to make a fun powerset that customers will enjoy. It's ok to go outside of the lines and make the set unique. The only set rule the devs should stick to is to make sure the set is fun to play, and if any changes are made to the set, make sure they increase the fun factor rather than lower it.

You say people are frustrated with the set only because it's weaker and 'has to be played in a different manner'. Well, yeah, lol. Most people don't enjoy playing sets that overall are cellar dwellers in almost every aspect. Most people don't like playing a set that is virtually useless on teams, in an mmo.

And comparing it to regen is interesting. Yes regen got nerfed, but imo justifiably so, due to the fact it made players almost unkillable. That's hardly equivalent to what et did pre nerf. Also, the fact people started realizing defense sets had an advantage over everything else, along with added defense from io's, played a part in the drop in popularity. So the comparison is not very valid, imo.



This would be your opinion, and I think it's very safe to say it is the minority opinion, lol. ET used to be the sets defining power, now, as you admit, it's nothing more than a situational power. And with nothing to replace the defining power, em has become a joke of a set.

In the other sets you mention, the powers listed really are not set defining powers. People don't play FM for GFS, or DB for 1kC, or MA for EC. I've already addressed MA, but with FM and DB, you have sets with a nice mix of ST and AOE dmg and abilities, that are fun to play. EM needs work to match them because its a slow, plodding set that is horrible in team play. It was a fun set before because it had that one, shining power. One could argue it was too dependent on that one power, but at least it gave people a reason to play the set. Without it, well, the results speak for themselves. Lots of complaints and not many people playing the set. Even you admit it needs buffs, lol.

It's true that many took it because it was 'flavor of the month'. But it certainly was not flavor of the month for its pve abilities, lol. It was flavor of the month because it was dominant in the old pvp format, and people talked about it on the boards. One of the devs even flat out admitted he was influenced by the posts laughing at those who took any set other than em, while missing the fact it was in regard to pvp play, not pve. You say the fact people are not 'shouting em's virtues from the rooftops' does not mean the set is broken, well the fact people were talking about it positively in regards to pvp didn't mean the set was broken either. But the fact so many customers say time and again the set is no longer fun to play does indicate it is broken. The fact its only on par with sets in st dmg while being blown away in the aoe department does indicate it is broken.

And you talk about 'bringing sets down'. Thats a great way to lose customers. Better to bring the under performing sets up to the ones that are working. There is no set in the game that is absolutely game breaking, so the idea that the bottom feeders can't or shouldn't be buffed is nonsense. Instead of wrecking sets people enjoy, like they did with em, they should toss a couple of buffs, or completely rework, sets that nobody plays (ice melee im looking at you).



So you don't like how slow TF is, but you're ok with making et sloth like? LOL, make up your mind man. How fast do you want TF to be? And if you make it too fast, uh oh, it's 'overpowered' again with a fast hitting big hitter, lol. The main problems with the set are the best attacks are glacially slow, and it has atrocious aoe. If you're going to keep the best two attacks glacially slow, then why not add some cone action (like 1k cuts...) and address one of the sets problems? If you want to speed up the heavy hitters, just give us old ET back.