Should Energy Melee Get More AOE Damage ?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-12-09 21:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
It was only quick in recharge, not animation. It used to royally suck in terms of damage per activation time. It's better now (but not great by any means).
|
Originally Posted by Maximus_Prime
Barrage got changed sometime around the Energy Transfer change, I forget when. Damage went up as well as its end cost and recharge time. Don't use it myself now. I miss the quick Barrage
 |
Too many alts to list.
Going strictly off the equations that powers are built around, here are what the totals should be:
Code:
Versus what they actually are:Recalculated EM Recharge Damage End Barrage 6.000 1.320 6.864 Energy Punch 4.000 1.000 5.200 Bonesmasher 8.000 1.640 8.528 Whirling Hands 14.000 1.182 13.520 Total Focus 20.000 3.560 18.512 Stun 20.000 3.560 18.512 Energy Transfer 20.000 3.560 18.512
Code:
Actual EM Recharge Damage End Barrage 6.000 1.320 6.864 Energy Punch 4.000 1.000 5.200 Bonesmasher 8.000 1.640 8.528 Whirling Hands 14.000 1.000 13.000 Total Focus 20.000 3.560 18.512 Stun 20.000 0.250 10.192 Energy Transfer 20.000 4.560 10.192
ET's endurance cost was lowered and damage buffed so that it could add in the damage to self portion. WH's end cost is slightly lower and its damage is slightly lower to compensate.
Guess stun should get the clobber treatment.
EDIT: Can someone tell me how to copy/paste from excel in a way that it looks good on these forums??!?!
EDIT2: Actually.... giving stun the clobber treatment would be stupid. Then the set would have two near identical powers, one with a 3.3 second animation and the other with a 1.8 second animation. Why would anyone ever take total focus after that?
Let's face it... the set just sucks.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Oh indeed the damage of Barrage was lackluster but I liked it because of its quick recharge, used it to fill in while waiting on something else.
|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
It was only quick in recharge, not animation. It used to royally suck in terms of damage per activation time. It's better now (but not great by any means).
|
Quote:
There is no good way**. The main problem is the text/spaces within the [code] tag isn't static - it will vary depending on the font you're viewing. For example, if you zoom in (ctl + in FF) the table will look different compared to when you zoom out (ctl - in FF). It's obnoxious as hell.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
EDIT: Can someone tell me how to copy/paste from excel in a way that it looks good on these forums??!?!
|
It was something I did bring up when talking with Ocho at HeroCon - he is aware it's messed up. (No idea when he'll get the time to actually change it to something that works, though.)
** The closest you can get is taking a screenshot of your spreadsheet, cropping the image, uploading it, and linking it in your post. It'll look right regardless of fontsize, but it's a pita to maintain, too.
Thanks, Sarrate. I've got plenty of webspace to utilize. I might start doing that.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
It does now, yes. Which makes me sad. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Stun costs considerably less end than TF. But has the same mag and only about 2 seconds more duration and yet it does 7% the damage of TF. ET's endurance cost was lowered and damage buffed so that it could add in the damage to self portion. WH's end cost is slightly lower and its damage is slightly lower to compensate. Guess stun should get the clobber treatment. EDIT: Can someone tell me how to copy/paste from excel in a way that it looks good on these forums??!?! EDIT2: Actually.... giving stun the clobber treatment would be stupid. Then the set would have two near identical powers, one with a 3.3 second animation and the other with a 1.8 second animation. Why would anyone ever take total focus after that? Let's face it... the set just sucks. |
I'm entertaining re-rolling my Invul/EM as an Invul/Elec, or maybe Elec/Elec, not really sure...Which makes me very sad, because he's still decent enough at tanking, and I love the character himself, and would hate to lose all the work that went into him over the years...but, given I can't repsec a whole secondary set, and there's no indication of when or indeed if EM is going to get looked at...yeah.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Give energy transfer the animation from stun. The old animation for ET was 1 second. Stun's is 1.8.
Give stun ET's current animation and make it an aoe so that it stacks with whirling hands.
That's the best I can come up with to "fix" this set.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
If you are including Rage then be sure to include BU in your calculations for attack chains. |
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Because of rage, the chain becomes good. Without it, not so much. SS also actually gets a good AOE to cap things off.
Looking at BillZ's list of DPS for the different sets, EM sits only above, DM, War Mace and Battle Axe in the attack chains(didn't see a listing for claws, it might be below as well), and that is because they won't do gloom. Now that BAB has a fix for weapon draw, I expect EM to lose to WM at the least. So it doesn't do single target well, and it doesn't do AOE. What the heck does it do? |
There's one important factor you are forgetting; damage type. The most resisted damage type is Lethal followed by Smashing, and bringing up the rear is Energy. Most people seem to forget this simple fact that plays a huge roll in outright damage for Energy Melee.
AoE Damage is poor? Yes.
Mitigation is ok, but nothing to offset the poor AoE? Yes.
EM doesn't do ST well? Incorrect.
Quote:
Yep.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Let's face it... the set just sucks.
|
Dont even bother to try and port this craptastic set over to scrappers in its current incarnation. Players begged for years to get EM for scrappers, but proliferating it now would be worthless, as they pulled the teeth out of the set.
Its sad that previously they wouldnt proliferate it because it was deemed to be too powerful for scrappers with crit capability, and now if its proliferated it would fall solidly into last place in the scrapper primary power heirarchy.
EM wasnt hit with a nerf bat, it was hit with a pickaxe. Its quite dead now.
Unless you like punching defeated mobs bodies- in that catagory it leads all sets!
Quote:
I'll have to assume you are unfamiliar with the thread in the scrapper forum comparing attack chains. It assumes a ridiculous amount of recharge so BU is up for a fairly good sized chunk of time. To be quite honest on a more realistic recharge number I imagine it would suffer more. I may be inclined to work such chains up out of curiosity. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
If you are including Rage then be sure to include BU in your calculations for attack chains.
There's one important factor you are forgetting; damage type. The most resisted damage type is Lethal followed by Smashing, and bringing up the rear is Energy. Most people seem to forget this simple fact that plays a huge roll in outright damage for Energy Melee. AoE Damage is poor? Yes. Mitigation is ok, but nothing to offset the poor AoE? Yes. EM doesn't do ST well? Incorrect. |
Now it is better than some other sets for single target, but those arguably have a much stronger AOE focus. For the single target focused sets, it is the weakest. It's not the best at single target damage, and sucks miserably at AOE. The mitigation is also pretty iffy at that. So what good is the set?
Too many alts to list.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
There's one important factor you are forgetting; damage type. The most resisted damage type is Lethal followed by Smashing, and bringing up the rear is Energy. Most people seem to forget this simple fact that plays a huge roll in outright damage for Energy Melee. |
Actually I forgot to respond to this part.
Set balance does not incorporate damage type (I asked Castle about this and he said only other factors go into the balance equations). Thus if EM is better against most targets at high level, that it all well and good, but doesn't matter in set balance.
In any case fire melee has an even less resisted damage type, and it outdoes EM in single target damage (and AOE of course).
The brute sets which actually use lethal are all below EM in single target work in any case. Smashing, while more resisted than energy, does have its strong points at high level (robots are fodder and there's a lot of robots in the 40+ game).
Too many alts to list.
Quote:
It can stack the hell out of stuns on one or two enemies!!!| So what good is the set? |
It's the weak *** controller set of damage dealers!
Which actually mattered back when toggles dropped in PvP.
That aside, docbuzzard, the results thread take 2 used basic IOs for slotting instead of the cranked 250% recharge chains. Brute and scrapper EM took 2nd and 3rd place. Followed by scrapper and brute claws for 4th and 5th. Brute fire took first.
What's that mean? For "normal" builds, the single target damage output of energy melee is still way the hell up there. It's when you start utilizing high end SetIOs and heavily tweaked builds that EM starts its fall to disgrace.
Side note: That thread was made when I thought brutes were getting a straight port from scrappers. They didn't and that means that brute claws may very well be in 2nd or possibly 1st place for normal slotting. One of these days I'll get off my butt and revisit those.
Oh, and Clouded, BU and Rage downtimes were calculated for those threads.
Be well, people of CoH.
Fair enough, though I didn't think it would do that well.
Oh, and I did add to the thread with a value of WM using gloom assuming weapon animations are gone. It leapfrogs a lot of sets.
Too many alts to list.
I'm not sure I want to know what happens with claws when replacing strike with gloom.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Unless I'm doing something wrong, it only goes to 181 DPS. I assume a .6 value for doubled brute follow up.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I'm not sure I want to know what happens with claws when replacing strike with gloom.
|
Too many alts to list.
Going off the spreadsheet in the thread has the wrong damage values for brute claws. Back then I thought were were getting a straight port of scrapper claws.
Using the current values, I show replacing strike with gloom to bump it from 195 to 211 DPS. And that's still not considering any procs.
Damnit. Ok... this weekend I work on spreadsheets.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Yeah, I don't have the brute damage values, so I just ported over the scapper ones. Tomax doesn't have brute Claws.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Going off the spreadsheet in the thread has the wrong damage values for brute claws. Back then I thought were were getting a straight port of scrapper claws.
Using the current values, I show replacing strike with gloom to bump it from 195 to 211 DPS. And that's still not considering any procs. Damnit. Ok... this weekend I work on spreadsheets. |
Too many alts to list.
Energy Melee should be re-concepted based on a mechanical theme of using your own life to boost the effects of powers. There is no real reason to limit such a useful mechanic to one power.
I'd add the effect to Stun and Total Focus. Stun would be changed to a targeted pbaoe, similar to how Thunderstrike behaves. At level 50 on a tank Stun would deal 30 damage to the targeted foe, and have a 75% chance to deal 30 damage to all foes within 10 ft of the targeted foe (including that foe). It would deal a mag 3 stun to the targeted foe and a 75% chance for mag 1 stun to all foes within 10 ft(including targeted foe). Stun would also deal 15% of your hp in damage to you and also -75% regen for 10 seconds. Recharge and endurance cost should be similar to Fault.
Total Focus would be changed to a 2.33s animation and reduced in endurance cost to 11.86 and deal 5% of your hp in damage to you. Damage dealt would be the same.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Quote:
It's pretty good at making you delete your characters because of the frustration the set causes or did cause.
|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
What the heck does it do?
|
Quote:
So basically you want it to be essentially as bad as it is now, but also help the enemies kill you faster. Got it. |
Originally Posted by Lohenien
Energy Melee should be re-concepted based on a mechanical theme of using your own life to boost the effects of powers. There is no real reason to limit such a useful mechanic to one power.
I'd add the effect to Stun and Total Focus. Stun would be changed to a targeted pbaoe, similar to how Thunderstrike behaves. At level 50 on a tank Stun would deal 30 damage to the targeted foe, and have a 75% chance to deal 30 damage to all foes within 10 ft of the targeted foe (including that foe). It would deal a mag 3 stun to the targeted foe and a 75% chance for mag 1 stun to all foes within 10 ft(including targeted foe). Stun would also deal 15% of your hp in damage to you and also -75% regen for 10 seconds. Recharge and endurance cost should be similar to Fault. Total Focus would be changed to a 2.33s animation and reduced in endurance cost to 11.86 and deal 5% of your hp in damage to you. Damage dealt would be the same. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
I think the very least that can be done is to improve Whirling Hands. Its chance of stun and current radius should be improved. Other Tanker AOES like Footstomp , Ice Patch, Thunderstrike and Lightningrod are more benefical because they mitigate damage by knocking the mobs on their *** for a couple of seconds. The current Whirling Hands only has I believe a 30 percent chance of a stun and a weak 8ft radius.
If the radius as improved to 15ft and chance of a short stun to 70 percent I think it would be a great help. Such a change would also be much more simple.
As for Billz Idea, if ET was a PBAOE I think TF should have to be buffed slightly in some regard to compensate. I still like the idea though.
Quote:
Yeah EM currently has no way to stop mobs from attacking like SS. Stone, Ice and Elec. I do think the chance to stun in WH should be increased and its stun duration decreased so it can stop mobs temporarily. Its radius should be increased as well.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
Or perhaps the stun duration could be decreased.
It doesn't need to stack, just to cut the aggro for a second or two at a time. kind of like knockdown. |
If no other changes will occur, then WH should be buffed.
I'm having a hard time trying to see how an Ice/ tanker could have trouble holding aggro. Did you skip Chilling Embrace?
Quote:
I'm not arguing that EM is an all around good set. I know it's lackluster having a 44 Tank and 50 Brute. However, it's ST damage is fine for the most part (compared in a vacuum |
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Now it is better than some other sets for single target, but those arguably have a much stronger AOE focus. For the single target focused sets, it is the weakest. It's not the best at single target damage, and sucks miserably at AOE. The mitigation is also pretty iffy at that. So what good is the set?
|
)I found EM to be a decent Tank set but not very effective for Brutes. On my tank, I synergized the secondary with Dark to get use out of Oppressive Gloom + EM's stunning capability. With Death Shroud, holding aggro was very easy and I'd pop a Wh hands when recharged to stun a few more minions, etc when stacked with OG. I could keep 5-10 critters stunned at any given time (including bosses) if WH chance for stun played in my favor.
So, EM is good for crowd control when paired with Dark Armor but I have a hard time finding other situations to boast about this set.
Overall, I'd give a EM a 5/10 and I don't plan to play it ever again unless serious changes are made or possibly to try it out once proliferated to Scrappers.
It doesn't need to stack, just to cut the aggro for a second or two at a time. kind of like knockdown.