Should Energy Melee Get More AOE Damage ?

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Sorry I've taken so long to respond. Contrary to what UberGuy said, EM/ELA Brutes were soloing AVs prior to the existence of Inventions on Live servers.

Wait, what? Barrage is a 1.33 second animation, which is plenty fast for this game... whether that's slow for the real world or not isn't much of a consideration... this is a video game, and it's fast for an attack animation. Having Barrage's damage get upped made the length of the animation even better... you're doing much more damage in the same activation.

If you're going to complain about animation times, you had better just be complaining about Energy Transfer and Total Focus (and even then there can be some debate, depending on the DPA, etc.), because the first three attacks for Energy Melee are pretty fast-activating and brawlerish.

Ummm, so? Are we supposed to be suing our big hitters more than once on a big team (it would be good to remember that your example would only apply to a steamrolling team, which you won't always be on)? Other than EBs or AVs, of course. I don't see this as an issue. If your lower tier attacks were like this, sure, that could be an issue, but not for a big attack like ET or TF.

This is getting into the trouble of perception, rather than an issue with the set, per se. If your target is mostly dead, it's your fault you used a big attack like TF and had your target die before you used it (and if you're solo, it's your fault for wasting all that extra endurance instead of using a smaller attack). I was on my Peacebringer the other and had a few mobs die while Incandescent Strike was animating (same animation as Total Focus)... but that was my fault... it was way too big of a power for how much health was on the mob, and most of my team was shooting at them.

Frankly, these comments make looking at Energy Melee correctly rather difficult. People got used to things like ET being a one second "I win" button and refused to adjust tactics after the change (2-3 seconds is NOT that long, you can determine if you can generally determine if ET or TF are justified before firing them). Adjust your tactics to the way the set plays NOW, and see what needs adjusting.

THat may be the problem with some...but it wasn't my problem.

I was actually using my big hitters on enemies at full life and watching them die before the attack finished animating.

That's what I got tired of, personally.

Admittedly, I was running on some really great teams then.

If you're using a 2-3 second animating attack on a boss, and they're dropping in that time span... you're not the only one whiffing, believe me. We can talk all we want about 2-3 seconds being an "eternity" but it really isn't: that's extremely fast for a boss to be dropping, let alone a spawn. At that point, your team is just rocking and you should enjoy the ride. If you're tank, make sure you get in there first to take that alpha, and that's about all you can do.

Now, if you used that long attack on a minion and they dropped in 2-3 seconds? I would just say you need to adjust your target selection, given your team.

On my tanker, I found this was often the problem. I would go to kill something, knowing that TF would one or nearly one shot them, then someone with faster attacks that did as much damage ran in and floored them.
If TF was an AoE that animated that slow, that'd be fine. But its too slow for what it does.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

This exactly sums up my thoughts on ET. The skill is wicked powerful, has top tier DPA, and most complaints about it animating too slowly can be alleviated by upping team difficulty or picking targets more intelligently. If a boss is dropping in 3 seconds, there are plenty of wasted attacks being levied across the team spectrum, and you are certainly not alone.

Now, I'm not completely discounting some people's balance complaints for the set, which I used to do. I definitely feel that a tweak upwards in the DPA of Total Focus would go a LONG way in addressing the issue of balance, and even the "cumbersome" feel of the set.

The set needs to be defined by the big, hard hitting attacks, to have an effective identity. It's not going to be about speed, which sets like Claws, Dual Blades, Dark Melee, etc already employ. If the DPA of Total Focus could be increased to about 54 for Brutes, and 57 for Tanks, the set would hover near the top in single target damage while maintaining the current feel of the set-- which is bombs attached to fists, dropping slowly but surely. A 2.7 second animation for Total Focus would achieve this, while knocking half a second off the current animation would certainly make the skill feel faster.

Yeah, I'm beginning to feel like lowering Total Focus's animation time is probably the way to go. Even half a second to get it in the 2.7 second range would be nice, or getting it on par with KO Blow. I wouldn't mind having that power recharge a bit longer to get that, either. That way Castle doesn't have to worry about damage scale balance so much, either.

And I hope it would alleviate some of the issues with "long animations." People just don't like them, especially for ST attacks.

Hi Pilgrim. You're right, with Barrage the way it is Currently, it's not so bad. I'm playing two **/EM Tankers in their teens and the attack chains are sluggish, but not so bad on animation.

No, my issue, as you pointed out it Should be, is with Energy Transfer. After all, I spent the bulk of my post talking about it!

I don't 'waste' Energy Transfer on minions, unless they're +2s, at least. At my level (50) ET outputs about 400 points. In order to produce that damage, I have to sacrifice 165 or so (City of Data says 169) of my Own hitpoints, along with the energy and Time it takes to create a Nuke. Unlike other Nukes, ET is single-target and... well, it doesn't actually produce 'nuke class' damage, but that's the 'Tanker Difference'.

It's not necessary or practical to use ET Only on bosses... Lieutenants are legitimate targets. Frankly, Boss-killing is a Scrapper's job, not a Tanker's. Tankers need to worry about the Whole Spawn and managing the aggro, not ignoring everything else, so he can rush the Boss and use his very expensive powers.

The 'problem' is that, unless I'm solo, more often than Not, in my experience, my teammates have destroyed my target before Energy Transfer finishes animating. Even the Lieutenants. I get all charged up and then blow my... um... energy, on a corpse. And there's no stopping it, once you click the button.

Elsewhere, the argument was, "Well, if your Energy Transfer does hit and defeat a live target, then the Blaster who was shooting at it just 'wasted' his own energy, corpse blasting." To which I'd respond, "The Blaster lost, at most, a second of his life and a bit of energy. He did not just waste his 'nuke'. Except for Snipes and Nukes, no Blaster attack requires as much investment as Energy Transfer does."

Before this 'animation-nerf', Energy Transfer was part of my attack chain and Total Focus was the second Big Bomb that I could drop on hard targets. Now I have Two powers I can't afford to use, except on big Bosses, EBs, AVs, and GMs.

And don't try to tell a 4-year Vet 'ROFL, Nub! Lrn 2 Play!' I have adjusted my tactics - and they Still don't work right. If I wanted a Slow powerset, I'd play Axe! As it is, I'm having fun with my **/Dual Blades tanker, because, you see, His attacks are fast and smooth.

Frankly, in this entire thread and the many other Energy Melee related ones that I've read since the 'animation nerf', I have not seen a single post saying 'I love my **/EM Tanker and use all of his attacks! Here's how!' Instead, it's been a long string of despairing cries for mercy, or Knowledgeable Tanker Reps saying, 'Avoid Energy Melee, I had to put mine in cold-storage.'

Precisely!

Nay-sayers can talk about the numbers all they want, but until they've played through all nine tiers of Energy Melee, I don't feel like they have any understanding of the real situation.

Be Well!
Fireheart

For the record, I run an energy melee/energy aura brute. My only brute (not very fond of the AT myself) but I have experienced all energy melee attacks. My biggest grudges right now lie with Stun (power anyone but a stalker would say is an obvious skip) and WH.

Well, that's pretty much what I kept doing. Don't get me wrong, seeing a team do what they did, and seeing it often, is a thing of beauty.

HOWEVER!

When you're the one basically sitting back now, and doing nothing, when you were able to do SOMETHING, before...ruins the set for you (well me anyways).

Like I said, I wasn't expecting to be the big time damage dealer. I made a tank. I built her to be the type of tank that could stand up to anything this game could offer, not DPS.

Sadly, I felt more like a taunt bot after the change than anything else on my tank.

True. Stun is a waste. :/

But I just looked at it as a free power skip. Not that I wouldn't love it to be changed.

I really prefere to have every power in a set make me go "OMG! I can't drop this! But I need this pool power! What do I do!?"

Yes, my EM/WP brute was built for recharge and tore up AVs. After the changes could he still kill AVs? Yes but not all of them anymore. Ms Liberty for example I could kill before the animation changes but after it was a stalemate. Also I cannot see any /EM tanks soloing AVs even with high recharge. (Maybe Fire/EM but then you have survivability issues).

ET with same damge, 1.5 second animation time and 25 second timer. HELL YEA!

Taunt for brutes however is something that is there because the devs did not want to cause even more imbalance. Most brutes would much rather have another attack option instead of taunt. Honestly if we want to taunt something, we just punch it in the face. We also have little need to duck for cover. We don't aggro mobs, they aggro us.

How about the same animation time on Barrage but 3 quick hits instead of 2 slow ones. Same overall damage, just faster feel.

I have no idea why you imagine a stalker would like stun as it is. The only reason I have it on my stalker is because it takes a cheap IO set which gets me more recharge. I never use the silly power.

It doesn't do me much good to mez a lieut. Anything which needs to go down which stun can take care of (say a sapper for instance), will get the AS at the get go.

If stun did get the clobber treatment, I'd be very annoyed if stalkers got the shaft. They rarely enough can put out as nice a chain as other ATs because AS and placate taking up attack space (and slots).

Castle has stated similar preference in the past. Every new set that is designed seems to be made so that no power is a brainless skipper. Why shields ended having things like -def protection in grant cover, power most thought to brainlessly skip at first due to it lacking any personal protection.

I didn't say "like" I say it has a place in that AT. Stalkers were designed to be much squishier than other Melee ATs and meant to rely on disabilitation tools (Placate) to boost that survivability. I don't mean that I would oppose Stun or Cobra Strike being given a buff on Stalkers, but I do see the use within the design of the AT.

As an Energy Aura brute (pre Energy Drain buff, have not played much post buff) i was so squishy I took Stun just for survivability. I would use a Total Focus - Stun combo on any boss that had stun protection before TF lost it's mag 4 stun, after that I used it on any boss all the time. Did a huge difference to the squishy brute and I'm sure it would make a huge difference to stalkers too.

Remember you lost Taunt for Placate and Whirling Hands for AS, your ST chain is as bad as any other EM user. That's my deal, though. Ranged sets get 9 powers to play with, one of them MAY be Aim and the Tier 9 may be a monstrous AoE (likely with monstrous penalties)

Melee sets, though, have 1 taunt, never miss a build up, and end with 7 powers to AoE and ST. Add a thing like stun and you cut budget to 6 powers. Given that EM has 2 ST powers recharging at 20 seconds that means it has just 4 powers to make an attack chain out off. But one of them is AS/Whirling so that ends with just 3 powers to make an attack chain out off.

Yes, stalkers suffer off this just as bad as any other AT, but as noted, they just happen to fit Stun within the AT's design and intent (not saying it's what everyone may like nor that it justifies the set as is)

One opportunity I wish they took eventually is to redefine standards. If every scrapper/tanker/brute melee set is going to have Challenge/taunt, just make the thing inherent and then give the set a new tool in it's place.

The same applies for stalker Placate and Hide, in my opinion. Would give enough room to tweak lacking power sets and give utility to sets that are "fine" damage wise.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

And it would be a mayor change to the pace and feel of the set. Increasing damage to 1.2 (the proper damage it should do now based on radius and recharge, right now it does 1.0) is a subtle change that does not alter pace, yet it gives the set 20% more AoE power.

It is true that the nerf changed the phase already, but that was one change long ago. Since many players have started new characters and such a phase change has no guarantee of pleasing the old ST damage lovers that quit the set while it has a potential of upsetting anyone that uses Whirlwind as an aggro management tool. Heck, quite a few doms complained with damage/recharge increases on their AoEs during the revamps.

I think the stun/whirling approach are the best way to go. All around it just encourages some to respec into stun but it does not mess too much with people that already use it to... stun.

Initially stalkers were designed as you say. They used to be the hidden glass cannon. However with the buffs they got a while back, their HP totals were upped appreciably, their base damage got a substantial boost, and they got potentially lots of criticals. Stalkers don't need to play hit and run games anymore. They can stand and fight if built well. In the modern world of the stalker, stun is a crap power and doesn't suit how a stalker can be played to best effect. Sure, many people still lapse back into the hit and run games of the initial stalker design, but that is sub optimal and simply not necessary anymore.

The only difference in defenses between a stalker and scrapper are HP really (yes, there are other slight differences, but they are slight). Scrappers are expected to stand and fight, and nowadays stalkers can as well.

Psst, KO Blow animates in 2.2 seconds or so, not 1.5. That would be a really fast windup at 1.5 seconds, heh.

Starsman, my issue with Stun getting the "Clobber" treatment is that I debate whether it's really worth it. EM already has a bunch of ST attacks to choose from and rely on for regular damage, do you really want another one? And if anything, to make it worthwhile you would probably sideline one of the other ST attacks. I'd rather see TF get a faster animation than that. War Mace was lacking in the ST attacks and damage department, so the change made sense there... not sure the case is the same for EM.

And people do forget the usefulness of stuns. I find it useful to use Cobra Strike and then Eagle's Claw on my Scrapper when I'm facing a tough boss, and it would work to do what with Stun + TF if the animation was on par with KO Blow or Eagle's Claw.

I particularly would hate to see a change for my Blaster's stun... he uses that and Beanbag to keep a boss out of the fight and not taking out half his health or more in one hit.

Umm, you do realize that the clobber treatment means it does damage in addition to the stun right?

Stun+damage>> stun