Super Booster Pack V
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-12-04 18:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Personally, I draw the line between Technology and Natural when the handwave comes in.
Amazing Ace has a backpack that allows him to fly. It requires fuel and maintenance, obeys the laws of gravity and aerodynamics, etc. It is a Natural device (Batarangs, possibly Cyclops' visor).
Bouncing Betty has a backpack that allows her to fly. Although it has the exact same performance specs as Ace's with regard to speed, range, maneuverability and the like, the power source is backwards engineered from alien wreckage and is poorly understood. It seems to maintain and recharge itself. This is Technology (Spidey's web fluid may be Tech because it is a unique compound only he understands, while the web shooters themselves are probably Natural and could be built for real).
Basically, if it is unique and the explanation for how it works is unmentioned or obvious mumbo-jumbo, it is Tech. If it's something you could just go out and buy, it's Natural.
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umm isn't booster V sposed to be Mutant?
Tech was with Cyborgs, Science was well Science and magic was in magic, we just got natural, so the only one left is Mutant
don't forget the Mutants we are what the next step in eviolution can be heh
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The secret compartment of my ring I fill, with an Underdog super energy pill!|
Originally Posted by BadJuJu
There are also a lot other of examples of temp power-giving drugs/chemicals in comics: Gingold (as originally presented, though it got a lot of retconning later), Mutant Growth Hormone, Velocity 9...
I'm sure there are more. |
I remember way back (on I3 devs talking about I10+) the devs mentioning, motorcycles and cars as a travel power (used as superspeed animation), jet packs for fly travel animation, they mentioned something for superjump but I forgot.
To me Superspeed being on a motorcycle would be a natural, it travels like one now.
My old SG once had a running argument on our forums specifically about AR toons. To me, the underlying question is "What makes you super?"
For example, a normal person with a normal gun can not take on demons and aliens and giant robots and super villains. So if you're playing an AR/Dev blaster (or AR/Traps Corruptor), you have to ask yourself "What is it that allows me to run with the supers?" It has to be one of the following:
A) If it's because you have such exceptional ability to use your weapons and a phenomenal grasp of combat tactics, then you're a Natural.
B) If it's because your weapon is so advanced that it can do things that normal weapons can't, then you're Tech.
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Not that you're biased... |
Originally Posted by Mr_Squid
Face tentacles.
Face tentacles. FACE TENTACLES. FACE TENTACLES. FACE TENTACLES. FREAKIN' FACE. TENTACLES. That's all! |
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Great. Then for three months we'll have City of Banksters.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Squid
Face tentacles.
Face tentacles. FACE TENTACLES. FACE TENTACLES. FACE TENTACLES. FREAKIN' FACE. TENTACLES. That's all! |
No thank you! I play this game to get away from RL!
/jk squid faces are cool. especially if they come with special emotes.
All I want out of the Mutant Booster is some more heads and maybe that bestial run. I realize what a pain in the *** it would be to animate but they made it work for Ninja.
Whatever it ends up being though, I'm probably gonna buy it. I've already got the other four.
Still want ;getsome and ;bringit added to the animation drop menu for Taunt though.
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Versions of those as taunts would be funny. But bringit is a bit long... /e whistle would be a hoot as a taunt animation as well. But for totally different reasons.
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Originally Posted by Caligdoiel
Still want ;getsome and ;bringit added to the animation drop menu for Taunt though.
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This is a pretty good summary and a decent take on natural vs tech when it comes to gadgets. I believe it may even apply and make sense of the toons I've created. I have:|
Originally Posted by Iniscara
My old SG once had a running argument on our forums specifically about AR toons. To me, the underlying question is "What makes you super?"
For example, a normal person with a normal gun can not take on demons and aliens and giant robots and super villains. So if you're playing an AR/Dev blaster (or AR/Traps Corruptor), you have to ask yourself "What is it that allows me to run with the supers?" It has to be one of the following: A) If it's because you have such exceptional ability to use your weapons and a phenomenal grasp of combat tactics, then you're a Natural. B) If it's because your weapon is so advanced that it can do things that normal weapons can't, then you're Tech. |
Rad/Traps - Natural. This toon can naturally fly, throw energy, and move fast. But the traps are devices she made. Even though she's an inventor and made things like explosives and FF generators, I chose natural because she has plenty of capabilities outside of the gadgets. She can create a forcefield generator, but without it she'd still be super. And it's less about what the gadgets can do for her, and more about what she does with the gadgets.
Bots/Traps - Tech. I don't have this toon anymore, but used to. She was an inventor as well. But without the gadgets, she had no powers. Without robots and forcefield generators, she couldn't do hardly anything. She's not a super without the stuff. She's not a tactician or anything, she just hides behind forcefields and bombs.
Dual Pistols/Traps - Natural. Can you tell I like traps? Okay, so this toon isn't made yet, but will be. She's natural too, even though she uses a ton of gadgets. Like my first toon, she's still something without her stuff. She's a martial artist, an assassin, and a spy. She uses gadgets like guns, explosives, and generators. But it's more about how she uses them than what they do.
So by my definition there, the first and third toons could use jetpacks and be natural. The middle would use a jetpack and be tech.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Even with that distinction I think you're limiting yourself. While Assault Rifle is mostly used by Tech/Natural characters it can just as easily be applied to other origins.|
Originally Posted by Iniscara
My old SG once had a running argument on our forums specifically about AR toons. To me, the underlying question is "What makes you super?"
For example, a normal person with a normal gun can not take on demons and aliens and giant robots and super villains. So if you're playing an AR/Dev blaster (or AR/Traps Corruptor), you have to ask yourself "What is it that allows me to run with the supers?" It has to be one of the following: A) If it's because you have such exceptional ability to use your weapons and a phenomenal grasp of combat tactics, then you're a Natural. B) If it's because your weapon is so advanced that it can do things that normal weapons can't, then you're Tech. |
A Magic origin character might use enchanted bullets, in that case the magic is doing the heavy lifting the rifle is just the delivery system.
A Mutant origin character might have superhuman aim and reflexes allowing him to get significantly more out of a normal assault rifle than a standard human would.
(These two could easily be switched with a mutant who empowers his bullets like Gambit or a magic user who uses magic to guide his shots)
A Science character would use some combination of the above depending on the exact nature of the experiment that empowered him (Science is the origin I always have the most trouble with, most of my attempts end up as mutants or tech).
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What about a sentient assault rifle that you have some sort of spirit connection with? At least on paper, that sounds pretty cool to me...
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Even with that distinction I think you're limiting yourself. While Assault Rifle is mostly used by Tech/Natural characters it can just as easily be applied to other origins.
A Magic origin character might use enchanted bullets, in that case the magic is doing the heavy lifting the rifle is just the delivery system. A Mutant origin character might have superhuman aim and reflexes allowing him to get significantly more out of a normal assault rifle than a standard human would. (These two could easily be switched with a mutant who empowers his bullets like Gambit or a magic user who uses magic to guide his shots) A Science character would use some combination of the above depending on the exact nature of the experiment that empowered him (Science is the origin I always have the most trouble with, most of my attempts end up as mutants or tech). |
I believe Adeon is trying to just distinguish between natural/tech. It's not to imply that it's impossible to have a magic or science or mutant explanation along with your rifle.
In theory, every set in the game can be any origin you want.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I thought he was actually trying to demonstrate your last point rather than further the direct discussion of natural vs. tech origins. Anyways, his list of alternative explanations inspired me just to throw out my own random idea as it came to me half-formed.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I believe Adeon is trying to just distinguish between natural/tech. It's not to imply that it's impossible to have a magic or science or mutant explanation along with your rifle.
In theory, every set in the game can be any origin you want. |
To me, the origins come down to this:
Natural: Relies on training, skilll, or inate abilities. The innate abilities may supercede those of most humans, but it's a natural talent as there is nothing inherently different about their cells, and they don't need to cast any spells. They may learn new ways to use the power they have, but they often do develope brand new abilities.
Tech: While the character may have innate talents, the technology they use they rely upon. Without the technology, they would not stand up to the a hard task without it, or without creating some new technology.
Mutant: Something is different about the character's cellular structure, or genetic makeup, that confers their abilities upon them. This may have happened at birth, or due to outside manipulations, but the abilities are something very much a part of their physical being and DNA code. These abilities may even present themselves without the bearer's wishes, and may be controlled/developed with training/time.
Science: A process or experiment created the character. If this did not happen, they would not have ever had their abilities. While the process may have mutated the character, a scientific origin places the emphasis on the event/process that created the character's abilities.
Magic: Some arcane source either confered powers, or is used as a power source. Without the magic, the character would be unable to do what they do. This usually relies upon entities, artifacts, or spells as a means of obtaining powers, or making powers work.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Yes, he has an arsenal of high-tech devices as well (as do most characters who rely on natural ability and training to some degree), but if you strip those away from him he's still just as formidable.
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You've obviously never watched the Superfriends.
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MAGIC ORIGIN
You receive your powers from a magical source. These abilities might come from a mystical artifact bestowed upon you, the mastery of numerous magical spells, or pacts made with powerful dimensional entities. This origin will give you access to Apprentice Charm. This item has a very short range and deals minor Energy damage, as well as lowering their resistance to further damage.
MUTANT ORIGIN
You were born with abilities which set you apart from the rest of humankind. Your powers manifested at birth, puberty, or possibly adulthood. Mutants are often viewed with awe and fear by those who don't understand them. This origin will give you access to Mutagen. This item has a very short range and deals minor Energy damage, as well as lowering the damage the affected target deals out.
NATURAL ORIGIN
You aren't 'super' at all; your amazing talents come from intense training and innate abilities. You might have been driven to physical excellence by some all-encompassing desire for perfection or revenge, or perhaps you are not human at all, and possess powers natural to your race. With your natural origin you have to rely on your cunning and skill. This origin will give you access to Throwing Knives. This attack has a very short range and deals minor Lethal damage, as well as inflicting additional Damage over Time.
SCIENCE ORIGIN
You received your powers either through purposeful scientific inquiry or some accident gone awry. You have since learned to harness your new-found abilities, becoming a powerful force in the world. This origin will give you access to Tranq Dart. This item has a very short range and deals minor Lethal and Toxic damage. In addition there is a small chance you can put the target to Sleep with the dart, but they will wake up the next time they are damaged or healed.
TECHNOLOGY
You derive your powers from technological devices, from suits of high-tech body armor to powerful energy weapons. Few have been able to duplicate the amazing technology which lies behind your gadgets. You need not be a brilliant inventor; you may have acquired these items from another source. This origin will give you access to Taser Dart. This attack has a very short range and does minor Energy damage. In addition it has a small chance to Hold your opponent for a brief moment.
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You know, I think this is why I always have trouble with Science origin. With the other origins the focus is on the source of their powers, for Science the focus is on how they were granted them in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Science: A process or experiment created the character. If this did not happen, they would not have ever had their abilities. While the process may have mutated the character, a scientific origin places the emphasis on the event/process that created the character's abilities.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I believe Adeon is trying to just distinguish between natural/tech. It's not to imply that it's impossible to have a magic or science or mutant explanation along with your rifle.
In theory, every set in the game can be any origin you want. |
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Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
I thought he was actually trying to demonstrate your last point rather than further the direct discussion of natural vs. tech origins. Anyways, his list of alternative explanations inspired me just to throw out my own random idea as it came to me half-formed.
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For me, its not what does the most work. Somehow, the "origins" have mutated somewhat into "functions." When someone says they are "tech" it sounds like they *have* tech, but the game doesn't have a representation for "what thing emits your power effects." It has Origins.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
For me, it all boils down to what's doing the work. A master swordsman can pick up a chunk of metal, wield it like a sword, and do super-human things with it. You can't just pick up a chunk of metal, slap it on your back, and start flying around. In that case, it's the jetpack that confers the ability to fly on it's owner and presumably it would work just as well strapped to anyone's back.
Things get a bit dicier with weapons and firearms, but at a certain point the ability to use them well relies less on the training and abilities of the person, and more on the weapon itself. Batman doesn't need his utility belt or high-tech gadgets to be a super-hero. So, I would consider him to be a Natural origin hero, someone who's super-powers come from his physical abilities and training. Yes, he has an arsenal of high-tech devices as well (as do most characters who rely on natural ability and training to some degree), but if you strip those away from him he's still just as formidable. Take Tony Stark out of the suit and he's pretty squishy. Of course, there are a lot of gray areas between...much like there are some gray areas between natural and mutation, mutation and science, technology and science, or magic and natural. |
Batman has a natural Origin. He trained himself to physical and mental peaks. The toys were incorporated into his training. But the *Origin* of Batman's abilities are training-related, and therefore Natural Origin.
Iron Man has a tech origin. He build the Iron Man armor and then used it to be a superhero. Even if Tony Stark was a kung fu master before building the Iron Man armor, the *origin* of his superhero identity comes from inventing the technology behind the iron man suit. So he's tech origin.
If Batman builds himself an exoskeleton, his origin will still be natural. If Tony Stark learns Kung Fu, his origin will still be tech. Our wedding anniversary doesn't change our birthday.
City of Heroes doesn't allow for multiple origins, or different origins for different aspects of our superpowers, and those limitations (combined with the fact that origin doesn't mean much anyway) can make it difficult to shoehorn in all the different aspects of "origin" in the comic books. But Origin in CoX has always been referred to as the original source of your abilities, and to me that means even if you add so much technology to your hero that 99.9% of his or her abilities come from high tech gadgetry, you will still be Natural Origin if your actual literal origin is a natural one.
If CoX had a more fully fleshed out "origin" system, CoX might have allowed for each individual ability of our characters to be tagged with a "mechanics" tag that specified whether the power was due to a mechanical device, a supernatural power, a (possibly fictional) scientific process, or an innate ability of the character. And that "origin" might have made the powers subject to slightly different rules, or circumstantial effectiveness. It might have allowed us to have hybrid origins: our offense was a Natural origin martial arts, but our defense was a Supernatural (magical) regeneration. But the game never went that route. In CoX, you are what you were born as (or created as, or changed into, or whatever). We have no way to change what kind of enhancements we can slot after we create our characters, so in the world of CoX, origin is fixed and final.
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To further expand on the Batman/Iron Man comparison, I think a good way to look at natural/tech is this:
Iron Man out of his suit is just Tony Stark. He's not going to be fighting supervillains like that, he's just a businessman.
Batman without his gadgets is still the ******* Batman. While obviously Bruce doesn't do a lot of fighting out of costume for secret identity concerns, he STILL knows a billion different martial arts and could still take down criminals by himself. Maybe not as effectively as with his gadgets, but he's far from helpless.
Basically, the way I see it is when tech is "Out of Costume", they're not a superhero anymore. When natural is out of costume, they're STILL a superhero. See Superman/Clark Kent for another "Natural" example (Though for him it's more "Natural alien powers" rather than training).
I suppose this example doesn't work in the case of androids/robots, who can't exactly take off their costumes, but in their case they're a lot more clear cut "Tech" than "Natural" anyway, since, you know, they're a robot. Robots don't just come together naturally like a pocketwatch on the beach.
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I actually have an Assault Rifle blaster of mutant origin. That's because he was born with low level telepathy, i.e. Mental Manipulation is his secondary. I'm also planning a magic origin dual pistols corrupter. And that's because she's a semi-divine spirit who's possessed a gun toting operative, and she has solar powers (thermal radiation secondary). We get two powersets. Sometimes one is more relevant to our origin than the other.
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This reminds me, originally the idea was to have seperate origins for the primary and secondarys.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I believe Adeon is trying to just distinguish between natural/tech. It's not to imply that it's impossible to have a magic or science or mutant explanation along with your rifle.
In theory, every set in the game can be any origin you want. |
Flower Knight's bio, for example, has her with a magic bow, yet she's a techie (devices blaster)
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Things get a bit dicier with weapons and firearms, but at a certain point the ability to use them well relies less on the training and abilities of the person, and more on the weapon itself. Batman doesn't need his utility belt or high-tech gadgets to be a super-hero. So, I would consider him to be a Natural origin hero, someone who's super-powers come from his physical abilities and training. Yes, he has an arsenal of high-tech devices as well (as do most characters who rely on natural ability and training to some degree), but if you strip those away from him he's still just as formidable. Take Tony Stark out of the suit and he's pretty squishy.
Of course, there are a lot of gray areas between...much like there are some gray areas between natural and mutation, mutation and science, technology and science, or magic and natural.
To use your example, I'd say that the Rocketeer would be Technology based in his original setting since he has (if I remember right) the only rocket pack iin known existence. But in Paragon city he would be natural since it's his training that sets him apart. If someone else grabbed his rocket pack and he had to make do with a jingle jet he'd probably still win due to his greater skill. In a similar vein, while the Juggernaut gained his powers from a mystical artifact he'd be a good fit for the mutant origin with his body simply getting stronger and tougher over time.
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