Super Booster Pack V
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-12-04 18:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Croc was mutated somehow in Hush, I think he's sometimes still shown that way (and sometimes he's just a big black guy with scary teeth).
Swamp Thing is Magic Origin. "Anatomy Lesson" 'Nuff said.
ah yeah, there is a few other drug user heroes (as opposed to drug-induced heroes, like Cap America, Cloak & Dagger, Ultimate Spider-man, Ultimate Hulk, etc) I just couldn't think of any. Patriot from Young Avengers used to be one, but got his blood transfusion and bullet-proof skin.
@craggy see me on Union for TFs, SFs (please!) or just some good ol fashioned teaming.
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So... random flesh colored tentacles, teeth, and eyeballs on stalks? The Hentai faction would have a field day with that. Catgirls and Sailor scouts beware.
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Originally Posted by MGoblin256
What do I want in a Mutation super booster?
Hmmmm.... Stuff that looks like it's from John Carpenter's The Thing perhaps?  |
Apparently Bane and Killer Croc have different backstories now. Well, the versions of the characters I was referencing were both Science origin; I'm going to ignore other versions. 
It's kind of like the shake-up of the X-Men where some new writer changed a bunch of them from Mutation to Magic origin. I find it best just to ignore that sort of thing. (Spider-man has never and will never have organic webshooters, either, so there.)
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I'm hoping for animal parts, fins, fur, animated tails, maybe finally some customization of the monstrous heads. For the power, well, I hope for a flat-out clone of ninja run except with a beastial gait on all fours (or threes with weapons, with dual weapons or weapon+shield... well they need to get creative, neh?)
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You know...I understood and accepted the reason for it in the movies. But yeah, they never should of given him organic web shooters in the comics.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Apparently Bane and Killer Croc have different backstories now. Well, the versions of the characters I was referencing were both Science origin; I'm going to ignore other versions.
It's kind of like the shake-up of the X-Men where some new writer changed a bunch of them from Mutation to Magic origin. I find it best just to ignore that sort of thing. (Spider-man has never and will never have organic webshooters, either, so there.) |
And just trying to keep him one up on SPider-Girl...terrible idea.
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Though I DO follow you greatly in this I must ask you if you're sure on Killer Croc's science origine ?|
Originally Posted by Ironik
I always enjoy a good discussion that tries to parse the boundaries of something.
In the comic book world, the Mutation origin is pretty much defined by Marvel's X-Men. Offhand I can't even think of a character from other superhero universes that were referred to as mutations independent of Marvel's take on it. For me the delineation between Mutation, Natural and Science comes down to specific thresholds. "Natural" is the baseline, normative human genome, with the slight variations we see in our world. "Mutation" is a change from that norm in utero. That part is key for me: Changes to your genes that depart from the usual before you're born. "Science" is a change to your body that happens after you were born brought about by some sort of man-made intervention. ("Man-made" as a stand-in for any directed technological procedure, whether the tech comes from ancient astronauts or alien invaders.) Whether that intervention is medical or chemical in nature is irrelevant. Also irrelevant are the results. Throwing fire is the ability; how you achieved it is the Origin. (Of course it makes no sense that one can mutate into a human flame-thrower, but we'll gloss over that part of it. )So NPCs like Trolls and Infected are Science because they were born Natural but later became mutated. To reiterate, "Mutant" is a change that occurs while still a fetus, while "Science" is a change that occurs after being born. It's sometimes confusing because we use the same term -- mutate -- to describe both events. So I think delineating between being born with it or having it done to you afterwards is important. Some examples of Science characters: Animal Man Bane Beast Boy Captain America Captain Atom Doctor Manhattan Luke Cage (Power Man) The Fantastic Four The Flash The Hulk Killer Croc The Lizard Spider-Man Synapse As for a Mutation booster pack, I don't know what sort of power would be defined by it, since comic book mutants have as much variety as any. |
I'm pretty sure he was born with his skin mutation (and yes he was further mutated in the Hush story line so that could have been science) ...
He's just one of my all time favorite characters and one of the few true mutants in the DC universe in my opinion.
Sharkbait
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Thanks for that Ghoost, I LOVE Killer Croc
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Originally Posted by ghoost
Some examples of Science characters:
Animal Man Bane Beast Boy Captain America Captain Atom Doctor Manhattan Luke Cage (Power Man) The Fantastic Four The Flash The Hulk KILLER CROC?!? The Lizard Spider-Man Synapse Waylon Jones(aka)KILLER CROC! "Jones was born with a condition resembling epidermolytic hyperkeratosis, a disfiguring skin disorder. However, it is actually a form of regressive atavism, meaning that he has inherited traits of ancestral species of the human race, such as reptiles. This condition has been augmented by the presence of a metagene. Consequently, he has several extraordinary physical abilities relating to his endurance, strength, and speed. His skin is hardened to the degree that it is nearly impenetrable to ordinary forms of abrasion including high caliber weapons fired from a distance. He possesses a degree of super strength; for example, he was able to tear a bank vault door off of its hinges with minimal effort. He has demonstrated regenerative powers allowing him to heal and restore lost limbs and teeth. He possesses superhuman reflexes and speed, especially while he is moving underwater. Killer Croc also has an enhanced sense of smell." Killer Croc would be labled Mutation! Now I would add The Swamp Thing in his place because he was transformed due to a chemical explosion in the swamp area where he was working |
@Drowning Samurai
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Sugar Calavera (Hero)
[QUOTE=craggy;2468985]Croc was mutated somehow in Hush, I think he's sometimes still shown that way (and sometimes he's just a big black guy with scary teeth).
Swamp Thing is Magic Origin. "Anatomy Lesson" 'Nuff said.
"The Swamp Thing character first appeared in House of Secrets #92 (June-July 1971), with the name Alex Olsen. The comic is set in the early 20th century, when scientist Alex Olsen is caught in a lab explosion caused by his co-worker, Damian Ridge, who intended to kill him to gain the hand of Olsen's wife Linda. Olsen is physically altered by chemicals and the forces within the swamp. He changes into a monstrous creature who kills Ridge before the latter can marry Linda. Unable to make Linda realize his true identity, the Swamp Thing sadly ambles to his boggy home"
Magic may have played a part but,He leans more so towards science than so Magic! Croc was born with the traits and he simply mutates more over time!
Prometheus: ... so what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
Me: From a certain point of view?
Prometheus: You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on your point of view.
Me: You're right about that. Power Blast is very pretty from a certain point of view. But that point of view is not head-on. <Kaboom> - Arcanaville.
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Originally Posted by Sharkbait
Thanks for that Ghoost, I LOVE Killer Croc
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YW!
. Yeah he's hella cool!
Prometheus: ... so what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
Me: From a certain point of view?
Prometheus: You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on your point of view.
Me: You're right about that. Power Blast is very pretty from a certain point of view. But that point of view is not head-on. <Kaboom> - Arcanaville.
from further into the wiki article on Swamp Thing:
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whatever the characters origins in real life, he's since been revealed to be something more, and his origin is most definitely magic. Batman originally shot people, but the commonly accepted version doesn't, just as, since Alan Moore revamped the Swamp Thing character, I don't think the original ideas have been accepted as anything more than misconceptions on people's parts (in universe of course, they didn't actually rewrite history...I don't think Moore can do that, yet.) | The creature, called Swamp Thing, was originally conceived as Alec Holland mutating into a vegetable-like creature, a "muck-encrusted mockery of a man". However, under writer Alan Moore, Swamp Thing was reinvented as an elemental entity created upon the death of Alec Holland, with Holland's memory and personality intact. He is described as "a plant that thought it was Alec Holland, a plant that was trying its level best to be Alec Holland." |
the version DC deals with today is magic so that's what I'm going with.
@craggy see me on Union for TFs, SFs (please!) or just some good ol fashioned teaming.
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Originally Posted by craggy
from further into the wiki article on Swamp Thing:
whatever the characters origins in real life, he's since been revealed to be something more, and his origin is most definitely magic. Batman originally shot people, but the commonly accepted version doesn't, just as, since Alan Moore revamped the Swamp Thing character, I don't think the original ideas have been accepted as anything more than misconceptions on people's parts (in universe of course, they didn't actually rewrite history...I don't think Moore can do that, yet.) the version DC deals with today is magic so that's what I'm going with. |
Thats understandable! I'm use to the very 1st origin of the character. I was brought up on him,Jonah Hex,Sgt. Rock and a host of others.
Through the years all DC,Marvel characters have gone thru changes in the bio/and or cosmetic changes.I haven't read any of the today SwampThing issues...The Batman stories are the ones i have enjoyed thus far.
Prometheus: ... so what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
Me: From a certain point of view?
Prometheus: You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on your point of view.
Me: You're right about that. Power Blast is very pretty from a certain point of view. But that point of view is not head-on. <Kaboom> - Arcanaville.
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For me, it all boils down to what's doing the work. A master swordsman can pick up a chunk of metal, wield it like a sword, and do super-human things with it. You can't just pick up a chunk of metal, slap it on your back, and start flying around. In that case, it's the jetpack that confers the ability to fly on it's owner and presumably it would work just as well strapped to anyone's back.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
The confusing thing about gadgets is that there's really no clear line where something stops being natural and starts being tech. It's more opinion-based than anything, and there's no real right answer.
Using a stick as a weapon is pretty much considered natural. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who considers a stick technology. A sword is technology, although really low-tech. Most people still consider that natural. Bows are low-tech gadgets. Guns are a lot higher in tech, but some people will still call those natural (myself included). Then somewhere between pistols and mech suits, it becomes tech. There are a lot of factors that could make it suddenly be tech, but all those are questionable. Does the gadget allow you to do something you normally can't do? Well, so does a sword. Does the object do most of the work or are you? I think guns do most of the work. Is it something you had to train to use or did just picking it up allow you to use it? Well, guns aren't that hard to use, and jetpacks surely require practice. Is it only things that aren't the norm in our world? It's not like jetpacks are uncommon in CoH. Personally, I would call a jetpack technology. But for the life of me I can't figure out why. And I don't think I'd have any good reason to tell someone who thinks it's natural that they're wrong. |
Things get a bit dicier with weapons and firearms, but at a certain point the ability to use them well relies less on the training and abilities of the person, and more on the weapon itself. Batman doesn't need his utility belt or high-tech gadgets to be a super-hero. So, I would consider him to be a Natural origin hero, someone who's super-powers come from his physical abilities and training. Yes, he has an arsenal of high-tech devices as well (as do most characters who rely on natural ability and training to some degree), but if you strip those away from him he's still just as formidable. Take Tony Stark out of the suit and he's pretty squishy.
Of course, there are a lot of gray areas between...much like there are some gray areas between natural and mutation, mutation and science, technology and science, or magic and natural.
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That's purely a gameplay compromise.
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
Considering that thing shoots flames, napalm, bullets, beanbags, grenades, and more bullets, yeah, that's a tech rifle.
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Might be worth pointing out that I have a Natural Traps toon and a Tech Traps toon, so the powersets themselves, and the objects themselves like "pistols" or "jetpack," aren't the only thing that defines an origin. I believe in general, origins are just arbitrary decisions made by the person who created the character, and it's their choice what to use.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Of course, there are a lot of gray areas between...much like there are some gray areas between natural and mutation, mutation and science, technology and science, or magic and natural.
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I also have a lot of toons who could be classified as multiple origins at once, if the system allowed it.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yeah! Batmans training make him the Ultimate human.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
For me, it all boils down to what's doing the work. A master swordsman can pick up a chunk of metal, wield it like a sword, and do super-human things with it. You can't just pick up a chunk of metal, slap it on your back, and start flying around. In that case, it's the jetpack that confers the ability to fly on it's owner and presumably it would work just as well strapped to anyone's back.
Things get a bit dicier with weapons and firearms, but at a certain point the ability to use them well relies less on the training and abilities of the person, and more on the weapon itself. Batman doesn't need his utility belt or high-tech gadgets to be a super-hero. So, I would consider him to be a Natural origin hero, someone who's super-powers come from his physical abilities and training. Yes, he has an arsenal of high-tech devices as well (as do most characters who rely on natural ability and training to some degree), but if you strip those away from him he's still just as formidable. Take Tony Stark out of the suit and he's pretty squishy. Of course, there are a lot of gray areas between...much like there are some gray areas between natural and mutation, mutation and science, technology and science, or magic and natural. |
wave a whiskey bottle in front of Stark and hes done,lol.
and first after redname ( my very first! )
edit*oh Despari beat me!
Prometheus: ... so what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
Me: From a certain point of view?
Prometheus: You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on your point of view.
Me: You're right about that. Power Blast is very pretty from a certain point of view. But that point of view is not head-on. <Kaboom> - Arcanaville.
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Sorry, your princess is in another castle. |
Originally Posted by ghoost
and first after redname ( my very first! )
edit*oh Despari beat me! |
You can pretend you got it though. I won't tell anyone!
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Nah!! you beat me fair and square...Ill get it one day!|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Sorry, your princess is in another castle.
You can pretend you got it though. I won't tell anyone! |
Prometheus: ... so what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
Me: From a certain point of view?
Prometheus: You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on your point of view.
Me: You're right about that. Power Blast is very pretty from a certain point of view. But that point of view is not head-on. <Kaboom> - Arcanaville.
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I dunno. My assault rifle toon is magic.... that's how I explain the endless supply of bullets and other projectiles. I'm using magic to create the ammo. The weapon is just a "magic bang stick".
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That's purely a gameplay compromise.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
thats part of whats cool about the game. you could be a MA/WP scrapper who's magic, because he's really an ancient demon that's transformed himself into a mortal form or something. if you want.
@craggy see me on Union for TFs, SFs (please!) or just some good ol fashioned teaming.
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Yeah, but experience with what it's like in the game influences immersion immensely. What makes more sense if you want to be immersed in the game? (A) It's a wildly advanced gun that can fire about 50 different things, or (B) that it's really not like that, it just works that way for game function/balance.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That's purely a gameplay compromise.
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In the pursuit of (A) the default gun even looks like it fires 50 different things.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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For me, one of the big distinctions between Natural with Gadgets, and Tech, is - what skill is required?|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
Things get a bit dicier with weapons and firearms
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Take a sniper - some of those rifles have some good tech, but without the training (or inherent skill, but even that will take a lot of training to refine) you can't pick up the rifle and use it good, and well, repeatedly.
But some of the rocket launchers today, for example, are more "point and click" than requiring aiming - the rockets have guidance and steering built in. Compared to, say, WWII, you don't need (as much) skill as long as you point generally in the right direction.
Admittedly, even high tech - user friendly gadgets will benefit a lot from skill, but for a Natural character it is the skill that defines the hero (for me).
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Mildays Knight is a Contractor!
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I dunno. My assault rifle toon is magic.... that's how I explain the endless supply of bullets and other projectiles. I'm using magic to create the ammo. The weapon is just a "magic bang stick".
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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
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Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Originally Posted by Orion_Star_EU
Backpacks & Jetpacks would not require the skeleton being altered whatsoever. Scabbards probably wouldn't either, depending on where they actually get put.
We actually did have nice clumps of fur for our characters as shoulder and chest details in the CoV beta. No idea why they were removed. |
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Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
So was a wrapped face texture. That cheeses me off.
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And the original pointy ears just can't be properly recreated.
I understand that the old ones where a separate head, but sill, common!
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
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Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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This is exactly my thinking as well.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
For me, it all boils down to what's doing the work. A master swordsman can pick up a chunk of metal, wield it like a sword, and do super-human things with it. You can't just pick up a chunk of metal, slap it on your back, and start flying around. In that case, it's the jetpack that confers the ability to fly on it's owner and presumably it would work just as well strapped to anyone's back.
Things get a bit dicier with weapons and firearms, but at a certain point the ability to use them well relies less on the training and abilities of the person, and more on the weapon itself. Batman doesn't need his utility belt or high-tech gadgets to be a super-hero. So, I would consider him to be a Natural origin hero, someone who's super-powers come from his physical abilities and training. Yes, he has an arsenal of high-tech devices as well (as do most characters who rely on natural ability and training to some degree), but if you strip those away from him he's still just as formidable. Take Tony Stark out of the suit and he's pretty squishy. Of course, there are a lot of gray areas between...much like there are some gray areas between natural and mutation, mutation and science, technology and science, or magic and natural. |
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Originally Posted by BaBsinator
That's purely a gameplay compromise.
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I consider all the weapon sets, MA, and WP to be best suited for "natural" origin. For exactly the reasons stated up there, but it's definitely a High tech rifle, equivalent to Batman's utility belt in it's functionality, so I figure it lays somewhere between tech and natural.
Example: anybody could put on Batman's utility belt, but noone could use the items therein to the effectiveness that he does.
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It is tricky, since it's a drug, not quite the same as say Iron Man who's just a normal guy without the suit, so not quite as obviously tech, but the rest of your examples have been changed for good by their encounters with weird sciences. Is there an example of another chemically dependant SPB (preferably in the COH canon) that we could use as a precedent?
Only other I can think of right now that needs to continually top-up is Johhny Quick from the Earth 2 Crime Syndicate.
Hourman
Captain Trips (Wildcards)
There are also a lot other of examples of temp power-giving drugs/chemicals in comics: Gingold (as originally presented, though it got a lot of retconning later), Mutant Growth Hormone, Velocity 9...
I'm sure there are more.