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I knew it! Mission Architect is PEOPLE! We've got to tell everybody!|
Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon
I hope you've all enjoyed this nice fireside chat with me. Now I'm going to have to excuse myself, I believe another hero is trying to throw around conspiracy theories about my Architect system - I'll need to squash the hero - er, calm the situation, quickly before it gets out of hand.
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Also, what Chad and Eva said. I'm amazed how often the devs seem to over-react whenever we suggest something. My favourite example was when someone asked if we could get pool tables in our bases, and the dev in question started talking about how difficult it would be to program a mini-game like that, etc, etc. All we wanted was a piece of furniture...
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| Rather than creating player-defined spawn points, would it be possible to allow designers to choose SPECIFIC spawn points from the already available ones to put a particular mob or interactive object at? As opposed to the whole "Front, Middle, Back" thing, I mean. |
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| Wow, that is way beyond the level of control I'd ever expect the devs to even be considering thinking about giving us. I'd be happy with simply having all the existing spawn points numbered and being able to choose to place my boss at Boss 1, Boss 2, Any Detail 1, etc. Any improvement on the ill-defined and often-buggy "Front," "Middle" and "Back." |
Having to test 4011 times to check whether certain folks or things always spawn in at least 'a barely acceptable' spot gets downright tedious.
About the range of groups - I get that a level 54 Hellion is going to be a pushover. But clearly some of the ranges are somewhat arbitrary.
For example - DE get a lot less interesting at 46th level. You get the stone guys.
Crey also loses a lot of their flexibility, including all the guys in suits or lab gear. It's all powered armor or PP. (And Hopkins, the Countess's right-hand man, only goes up to level 38.)
There also are groups with odd gaps, some gaps only 10 levels or so.
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This would be particularly important for outdoors maps, where it's all one "room" so there is no Front, Middle or Back.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Wow, that is way beyond the level of control I'd ever expect the devs to even be considering thinking about giving us. I'd be happy with simply having all the existing spawn points numbered and being able to choose to place my boss at Boss 1, Boss 2, Any Detail 1, etc. Any improvement on the ill-defined and often-buggy "Front," "Middle" and "Back."
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Agreed. Barring adding more spawn points, could we simply get tweaks to some of the preexisting ones? The Nerva > Primeva map is a perfect example. It's plagued by the fact that its "an outdoor map" with only Front spawns but it is quite linear and there's even canon missions where the back of the map IS designed to be the Back.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Wow, that is way beyond the level of control I'd ever expect the devs to even be considering thinking about giving us. I'd be happy with simply having all the existing spawn points numbered and being able to choose to place my boss at Boss 1, Boss 2, Any Detail 1, etc. Any improvement on the ill-defined and often-buggy "Front," "Middle" and "Back."
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I've always found it annoying that the Devs have kept assuming that we're asking to be able to do exploitive things whenever we ask for this and just say no.|
Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon
2. Can we have more control over spawn placement? I'll take this question as a chance to explain a bit about the spawn system in MA. Each Architect map had its spawns changed to be generic, so that no matter what map you use or what enemy group you use, you'll know that they'll show up regardless of the map you're using. On our end regarding specific placement, that's something where the mission designers request the world designers to set the specific location on the map where they want that a specific spawn. Allowing Architect to do this would be difficult for several reasons. The first is that we'd have to come up with a map editing program to allow players to get into the map to move the spawns around to where they want it. Another concern on our end would be exploitation, where players could place specific spawns on a specific map to pose the least amount of challenge - spawns where the enemies are trapped in a part of the map, etc. We have a few ideas on our end on how to make this work, but it would require a large amount of tech and time to do. |
What people keep asking for is more control over the existing spawns. Right now the middle section is often useless for anything other than battles or random bosses because authors don't like running the risk that their Named Boss or Hostage/Escort could somehow end up spawning right at the beginning of the map before the "front" section.
Likewise, I cannot use something like the Tech map with the three elevators on the ground floor and place a boss on each of those three floors, because only 1 floor will have a back spawn and the rest are all middle spawns, meaning that my special bosses would randomly spawn anywhere; both on the same floor, or all three on the same floor, or even back on the first floor long before you are meant to find them.
We'd also like to be able to make sure that Allies will always be somewhere where they can be found, like at the very front of the map in the way that Imperious is waiting for you at the gates in the finale of the ITF.
The lack of spawn control on outdoor maps is also annoying and doesn't just affect AE. I've lost count of the number of times I entered an outdoor map to rescue a hostage only to find that he was only 20 feet from the door and could have just made a break for it.
Nobody here is asking for the ability to move the spawns around, we're asking for more control over the spawns that already exist.
In addition to that, I'd like to be able to disable some spawns in rooms that are already overly crowded to begin with. The new 4XP/SRSLY System has had some unintended fallout where just being on 2x Heroes/Villains can lead to running into massive spawns of enemies right at the front door of a mission. Some rooms just don't need that many spawn points in them!
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On the other hand, there are situations where you might want all of the available spawn points in an "overpopulated" room to be filled.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
In addition to that, I'd like to be able to disable some spawns in rooms that are already overly crowded to begin with. The new 4XP/SRSLY System has had some unintended fallout where just being on 2x Heroes/Villains can lead to running into massive spawns of enemies right at the front door of a mission. Some rooms just don't need that many spawn points in them!
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And before people start throwing around words like "exploit," and "farming," keep in mind that it's fairly easy to hit your aggro cap of enemies on every spawn just by cranking yourself up to x8.
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This was mentioned early and often during the beta as a reasonable compromise to spawn point control issues. The assumption was that editing spawn points would probably have to wait for a map editor system, but simply selecting spawn points would require much less work.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Wow, that is way beyond the level of control I'd ever expect the devs to even be considering thinking about giving us. I'd be happy with simply having all the existing spawn points numbered and being able to choose to place my boss at Boss 1, Boss 2, Any Detail 1, etc. Any improvement on the ill-defined and often-buggy "Front," "Middle" and "Back."
Edit: doh, beaten to the punch. |
What you could do for maximum flexibility with limited alterations to code is allow players to create a "spawn point group" just like they create critter groups that can list a set of spawn point entries for a given map. Then allow objectives and enemies to spawn at "Spawn Group 3" instead of "front." Then issue a directive that states if maps are ever edited and spawn points added or removed, the absolute ID of every existing spawn point not removed is left unchanged. That wouldn't take much programming and the art department won't have to extend the UI much.
Maybe I should send a memo to Dr. Aeon.
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Dear Dr. Aeon.
I was hoping in the future we might be able to have access to the base models for enemy groups without any powers. I realize there might be some oddities with this such as well, I can't think of any specifics but weapons where they shouldn't be and more I'm sure, but what if I want a zombie and I don't want them to have guns but I like the banished pantheon models. Why can't I give them dark/dark powers and have them just not draw the guns. Or how about if I want a L50 Shivan with custom Rad powers or a Rularuu Brute for a level 1-10 mission arc where they are severely weakened and I give them simple powers.
I think if we could just have unfettered access to the models and the ability to add any power to any model that would alleviate a lot of the requests of people wanting x mob available in a wider variety of levels.
Also, I would like to be able to give them a wider variety of ranged attacks. I have a villain mission where they take on a Police Convention and all the cops with war maces (for billy club) have throwing knives. Since when do cops use throwing knives?! I would like the ability to be able to give them shotguns instead. Perhaps make melee powerset enemies in MA have a 3rd (and required option) for ranged weapon instead of cramming it into the melee set. The author could select shuriken or knives or shotgun or hatchet or flame thrower or dynamite or grenade or any one of maybe 10 or so ranged powers that would better fit the character concept.
How about being able to give NPCs pool powers? You do it for regular NPCs, Nemesis gets Vengeance, Tsoo get teleport etc. We would like to be able to do the same.
Oh, and what the hell are reflections powers and how do they affect the NPC and player respectively?
Thanks for listening.
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Just being able to *see* the spawn points and how they are currently labeled would be a good starting point.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Rather than creating player-defined spawn points, would it be possible to allow designers to choose SPECIFIC spawn points from the already available ones to put a particular mob or interactive object at? As opposed to the whole "Front, Middle, Back" thing, I mean.
I have a mish with a closed door near on the last floor of a lab map, and I'd prefer if my end boss were always behind the door... but sometimes he appears in another side room on the same floor. |
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Yes, the current map does not label them very well and too often there are issues of back and middle spawns being switched, or front/middle spawns spilling over into back spawns when the interface claims that you had plenty of front spawns left.|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
Just being able to *see* the spawn points and how they are currently labeled would be a good starting point.
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The interface could really use a zoom function as well, otherwise the larger single-level maps are unreadable unless you enter the mission in test mode.
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Where did he just say no? Exploit was mentioned because that's one of many things they consider when they add or change features, because there ARE people in the game looking to do just that. It might not be you, or your friends, or anyone you've ever come into contact with on your server of choice, but there are people out there. The Devs, and I would think that the vast majority of players, would rather any new features or changes be done right the first time, rather than done, taken out because of exploitable bugs, and put back in down the road. We're already going through that right now with all the maps that got pulled, and enemy groups and certain mob types that got yanked for one reason or another. No need to continue that practice by keeping a blind eye to the seedy underbelly.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
I've always found it annoying that the Devs have kept assuming that we're asking to be able to do exploitive things whenever we ask for this and just say no.
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Nobody here is asking for the ability to move the spawns around, we're asking for more control over the spawns that already exist. |
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Consider how the MA system, in general, was received and exploited. Consider further that some tried to argue that the Devs should have known it would happen and were negligent. These people argued, essentially, that they and their fellow players have absolutely no self control and will exploit anything that the Devs fail to adequately proof against such. We are now, as authors, suffering the results of this.
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Originally Posted by Lazarus
I've always found it annoying that the Devs have kept assuming that we're asking to be able to do exploitive things whenever we ask for this and just say no.
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What I want is for the Rikti War Zone (firebase) maps to be fixed. As it stands now boss and destructables can be self completing because they can spawn on or right next to the firebase.
Choosing front/middle/back makes no difference, there is only one 'zone' for outdoor maps. For these maps that is a huge problem.
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I heartily endorse this idea! This would go a long way to resolving the problems with critter level ranges.
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Originally Posted by Cthulhufan
Dear Dr. Aeon.
I was hoping in the future we might be able to have access to the base models for enemy groups without any powers. I realize there might be some oddities with this such as well, I can't think of any specifics but weapons where they shouldn't be and more I'm sure, but what if I want a zombie and I don't want them to have guns but I like the banished pantheon models. Why can't I give them dark/dark powers and have them just not draw the guns. Or how about if I want a L50 Shivan with custom Rad powers or a Rularuu Brute for a level 1-10 mission arc where they are severely weakened and I give them simple powers. I think if we could just have unfettered access to the models and the ability to add any power to any model that would alleviate a lot of the requests of people wanting x mob available in a wider variety of levels. Also, I would like to be able to give them a wider variety of ranged attacks. I have a villain mission where they take on a Police Convention and all the cops with war maces (for billy club) have throwing knives. Since when do cops use throwing knives?! I would like the ability to be able to give them shotguns instead. Perhaps make melee powerset enemies in MA have a 3rd (and required option) for ranged weapon instead of cramming it into the melee set. The author could select shuriken or knives or shotgun or hatchet or flame thrower or dynamite or grenade or any one of maybe 10 or so ranged powers that would better fit the character concept. How about being able to give NPCs pool powers? You do it for regular NPCs, Nemesis gets Vengeance, Tsoo get teleport etc. We would like to be able to do the same. Oh, and what the hell are reflections powers and how do they affect the NPC and player respectively? Thanks for listening. |
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Nobody in this thread is asking for that, the exploiters long ago moved on when the Devs gave them the new "license to farm" difficulty system anyways. My comment was concerning how the answer was not a good match for the question that was actually be asked and giving clarification to the original question.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Nobody is such an absolute word, and usually used inappropriately. You seem to imply that nobody "in the game" is asking for that, but I'd wager that Aeon got more than a few PMs about just that very thing, or he wouldn't have mentioned it at all.
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I'd certainly back a call for Spawn Point numbering and specific placement of units at, for example Spawn Point 11, instead of Back. An arc I've got primed (and ready to go once somebody at NCSoft tells me how I can buy more slots with a NZ Visa Card) is almost exactly how I like it except that once in a while (every 4 or 5 tests) my Boss ends up in the Middle section in front of a set of closed doors where he should be somewhere behind them in the Back section. I'd be really happy with being able to make my creations and then go, "Right, you go there."
On the issue of exploitative behaviour, yeah, it's certainly out there and I doubt Dr. Aeon is accusing any of us, but rather as mentioned by others, keeping the broader playerbase (which does have exploiters in it) in mind. It's the sensible thing to do.
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Request for clarification, please: does this mean that nobody is currently employed to create maps specifically for mission architect? that unless Paragon Studios decides to hire somebody else, all mission architect maps have to be re-used maps from the canonical missions? that, for example, it's out of the question to ask for something like an instanced outdoor map for any zone that doesn't have one yet? also, by way of clarifying the same answer, can the process for converting existing maps to MA maps also work for mayhem and safeguard maps, or are those just plain never going to be converted?
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Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon
4. Who is in charge of putting new maps into Architect?
The responsibility of putting maps into Architect falls mainly on my shoulders. War Witch and one of our other world designers helped a great deal in showing me how it is done, ... |
I'd just like to chime in about spawn points as well. All I have ever wanted is the ability to pick one of the pre-assigned spawn points. As in, if there are 3 "back" spawnpoints for a boss encounter, I'd like to be able to pick one of those and have Boss X always spawn in that one spot.
I think, in most cases, we'd be more than satisfied just with that. Any further finessing of the spawn positions can be handled, author-side, by judicious map choice and a little imagination -- the same tools we've been using all along.
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Man, there are already tons of official maps still not in MA, and Dr. Aeon's just one guy. Yeah, I kinda hope other people would be available to help him convert old maps, but on the other hand I suspect that all future maps will be developed with the MA in mind.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Request for clarification, please: does this mean that nobody is currently employed to create maps specifically for mission architect?
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It's also probably the case that the devs are holding off on new content (including maps) because, with GR's graphics update, they're just going to end up looking kind of poopy, compared to maps specifically optimized for GR.
(It would hurt less if we'd had more content over the last 1.5 years, but that's another matter...)
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I'm a bit disappointed. THE major weakness of this game is the repetitiveness of the maps both in regular content and in MA. At the very least, it should be possible to take existing map layouts and retile them...|
3. Can we have our own map editor? The creation of a map editor would require work on a scale greater than Mission Architect, so I'm going to go ahead and say that this will not happen. There are a lot of complications that would go into this - are the maps stored like bases? How would spawns work? How long would it take players to download the maps that are created? How big would we allow maps to be? These are just some of the initial questions that pop into my head, all of which don't have an easy answer - all of it would involve a major amount of work to get this in for Architect. |
I would hope you would at least consider some level of costumization, even if it's just tilesets, object placement, and lighting on existing maps.
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When bases were first announced, I imagined that they would be built using rooms and pieces from the mission maps. It would be a map editor that people could use to create their bases and place objects, items and stuff inside them. When MA first came out, I thought that maybe the same map editing dynamics I thought of for bases would be used for MA.|
Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon
3. Can we have our own map editor?
The creation of a map editor would require work on a scale greater than Mission Architect, so I'm going to go ahead and say that this will not happen. There are a lot of complications that would go into this - are the maps stored like bases? How would spawns work? How long would it take players to download the maps that are created? How big would we allow maps to be? These are just some of the initial questions that pop into my head, all of which don't have an easy answer - all of it would involve a major amount of work to get this in for Architect. |
I think the MA devs and the base devs should get together and build a map editor that can be used for both bases and the MA system. This could be the "shot in the arm" that bases really need while also helping to improve the MA system (not that it needs that type of improvement, but it would be really cool.) If the devs are still worried about the limited use of bases, why not implement a "hero/villain apartment system" like what was talked about in the past? Then everyone can use the base editing system for their own characters and build lairs, hideouts and bases for their villains and heroes.
I understand that their will be the issue of taking up memory. We've seen this in the base and MA system already, but maybe it's time to work on server-side upgrades to the game that allow for a great deal of storage for each game account? I get over 7 gigabytes of storage on my G-mail account and that service is free. Hard drives will only come in the terabyte territory soon enough as well.
Anyway, I will understand if my suggestions are dismissed, I just think they'd be really cool.
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Originally Posted by Cthulhufan
Dear Dr. Aeon.
I was hoping in the future we might be able to have access to the base models for enemy groups without any powers. I realize there might be some oddities with this such as well, I can't think of any specifics but weapons where they shouldn't be and more I'm sure, but what if I want a zombie and I don't want them to have guns but I like the banished pantheon models. Why can't I give them dark/dark powers and have them just not draw the guns. Or how about if I want a L50 Shivan with custom Rad powers or a Rularuu Brute for a level 1-10 mission arc where they are severely weakened and I give them simple powers. I think if we could just have unfettered access to the models and the ability to add any power to any model that would alleviate a lot of the requests of people wanting x mob available in a wider variety of levels. Also, I would like to be able to give them a wider variety of ranged attacks. I have a villain mission where they take on a Police Convention and all the cops with war maces (for billy club) have throwing knives. Since when do cops use throwing knives?! I would like the ability to be able to give them shotguns instead. Perhaps make melee powerset enemies in MA have a 3rd (and required option) for ranged weapon instead of cramming it into the melee set. The author could select shuriken or knives or shotgun or hatchet or flame thrower or dynamite or grenade or any one of maybe 10 or so ranged powers that would better fit the character concept. How about being able to give NPCs pool powers? You do it for regular NPCs, Nemesis gets Vengeance, Tsoo get teleport etc. We would like to be able to do the same. Oh, and what the hell are reflections powers and how do they affect the NPC and player respectively? Thanks for listening. |
Ooh, I'd very much love to be able to use existing models with powers to say, create a Outcast Earth if I wanted to. I'd like to add an amendment to your post, if you don't mind, regarding power pools:
What about the option to assign "Enemy Power Pools" to models, to work in concert with being able to use existing models? By that, I mean taking things like the Nemesis ranged rifle attacks with Vengeance, etc, or the powers of Paragon Police and putting them into their own section so if we can't use the models, we could, for instance make our own Nemesis Automatons, etc. I'd love to be able to create my own Police without having to give them Assault Rifle or make them a Thug Mastermind just so they can use pistols.
Edit: doh, beaten to the punch.
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