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You know what you brought up some good points.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Hello Ultimo,
If you are looking for a non-IO build, the one Heraclea posted is a thing of Beauty. It brought me back to the early days of my SG leader's Tanker. To add my own (non-tanker) perspective for you, I have seen 2 melee characters in the time I have been playing that did things that amazed me. The first was my own SG leader with his INV/SS. The amount of punishment he could take with a mass of villains around him was incredible. Teaming with him made me feel completely un-needed. This was before IOs and pre-ED even. The second time I have been impressed in this way was recently with an IOed out Katana-Invuln scrapper. You want to play a Tank that is not a Tanker, thats the way to go. Invulnerability works really well, and as far as comparing it to a defense-based character, I dont think you really can do that. Invulnerability is in a class all by itself. |
Ultimo, To be an awesome invulnerability tanker, dont feel like your forced to IO out your character, even when you may find yourself having a hard time working with invul. When IO's came out, I was on my fire fire tanker(weaker in defenses and resist) and I was owning, in a matter a fact when i tried to IO i actually hurt my build. That's the risk you take with IO's.(Fire fire tankers are a whole different deal though.)
Now don't get me wrong when ios are used right they are just a huge improvement compared to SOs, but sometimes its nice to know that all those millions you were thinking you would have to use, aren't necessary.
I came back to this game 4 months ago and the whole reason I'm going to be using IO's is do give me something to do lol and I want to get rid of acro and get flight again like what i had back in pre ed.
Heraclea did have a nice build. yours is really nice too ultima, really comes down to preference on yours and his, you have more balanced out resist but weaker defenses, he also has immob protection while u dont, but you have more debuff resist. This is just looking at totals though, I could have forgot to toggle on some powers lol
Pinnacle - The Drunk Server!
MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
Okay so here's what I did, I mixed yours and hercs build and came up with this awesome beast:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
ROFL: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (3) Resist Damage IO
- (3) Resist Damage IO
- (5) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (5) Accuracy IO
- (7) Damage Increase IO
- (7) Damage Increase IO
- (9) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (36) Recharge Reduction IO
- (37) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (9) Endurance Reduction IO
- (11) Accuracy IO
- (13) Damage Increase IO
- (13) Damage Increase IO
- (15) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (15) Accuracy IO
- (17) Damage Increase IO
- (17) Damage Increase IO
- (19) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (19) Resist Damage IO
- (21) Resist Damage IO
- (21) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (11) Flight Speed IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (23) Resist Damage IO
- (23) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Flight Speed IO
- (25) Flight Speed IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (25) Healing IO
- (27) Healing IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (29) To Hit Buff IO
- (29) To Hit Buff IO
- (31) Defense Buff IO
- (31) Defense Buff IO
- (31) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (33) Endurance Modification IO
- (33) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (33) Endurance Reduction IO
- (34) Accuracy IO
- (34) Damage Increase IO
- (34) Damage Increase IO
- (36) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (39) Resist Damage IO
- (43) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Resist Damage IO
- (27) Resist Damage IO
- (37) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (37) Recharge Reduction IO
- (46) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (39) Damage Increase IO
- (46) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (36) Defense Buff IO
- (40) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (39) Resist Damage IO
- (40) Resist Damage IO
- (40) Resist Damage IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (42) Recharge Reduction IO
- (42) Accuracy IO
- (42) Damage Increase IO
- (43) Damage Increase IO
- (46) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (43) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (45) Defense Buff IO
- (45) Defense Buff IO
- (45) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (48) Endurance Modification IO
- (48) Endurance Modification IO
- (48) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (50) Damage Increase IO
- (50) Endurance Reduction IO
- (50) Damage Increase IO
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
Tell me whacha think about it ultimo, I kept your laser beam eyes for you and noticed you didn't have taunt in your build so i just left it out because I figured you didn't want it.
Pinnacle - The Drunk Server!
MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
If you are using standard lvl 50 common IOs then some of the passives don't really need more than 2 slots.
Lvl 50 IOs give over 40% enhancement each, does an extra 10% for a third IO mean that much to you on a power with a base value of 5% ? (same deal for schedule B enhances like def and resist)
Think what 40% extra end redux or recharge ect could be adding to an attack, just by shifting a slot.
I would pick up tough and weave. I didnt take the passives and in all honesty I dont miss them. I am IO'd out now but I have been playing that tank since Issue 2 when there were no IO's just SO's...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Slotting for knockback on most of your attacks instead of damage will not help you, infact it may get you killed. Invincibility relies on foes being close to you, and by knocking them away you lose the defense buffs. Also you will take longer to defeat foes, and scatter them making team's aoe attacks less effective- again adding more time to defeat foes. More time with foes being alive is more attacks headed your way. Foes that are not near you will not continually be taunted by Invincibility and start attacking your weaker teammates.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
I have an Inv/SS Tank. He works great but the IO's make him better and you don't need the most expensive IO's to make a big difference.
As a previous person mentioned, look into soft capping him. I personally like having enough damage to get most enemies out of the way in less than 4 punches. The best defense is a good offense. It's really about balance not becoming a defense spunge.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
My unscientific impression is that mixed defenses are better than pure resistance or pure defense. Pure defense is subject to cascade failures in the face of -def debuffs: if one hits, more will hit, and the set collapses. Resistance at least gives you reaction time, something that the defense character may not have. Willpower is quite adequate despite the fact that its defense, its resistance, and its regeneration are rather mediocre on paper. And invuln is currently quite solid, because it does offer you a good mix of defense, resist, and self-heal.
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I've highlighted the part I'm interested in. This will be heavily off topic.
I play a /WP Brute and I've not yet played a WP/ Tanker.
So I'm curious about how a WP/ Tanker fares against cascading def failure.
I've found myself quite frustrated on the ITF, particularly on team compositions that don't have sufficient buffing/debuffing. (On teams with solid debuffing/buffing it's not a problem)
But in effect, cascading def failure does exactly what you described happens to "pure def sets". Which is especially frustrating in that WP is not a pure def set and basically survives on it's mixed defenses (perhaps we should call it a mixed mitigation set?).
My Brute has 2500 hp and his regen with RttC fully saturated stands at 1200% in Mids, about as high as I could get it without gimping other things I want the character to do.
And yet, def failure, from (SM/L) defenses that come almost entirely from pool powers & IO set bonuses is the only thing that gets this brute killed on the ITF.
Even chugging purples to sit softcapped doesn't help, as eventually you will have def failure on the ITF.
So I'm curious if this is a non-issue for WP/ tankers due to superior HP, higher resistances, and higher regen.
I can live with it if this is a non-issue for WP tankers due to those factors, as my brute has damage dealing in his favor.
However if Def failure ruins a WP Tankers day as well, then the mixed mitigation is not really working (in this one extreme circumstance).
Sorry for the off topic post.
Yeah, the ITF is about as extreme as it gets for -def. The other extreme circumstance is Anti-Matter's lackeys in Tina McIntyre's arc. The robots all have radiation blast and can knock a mixed set down by 30-40% defense in seconds.
Still, if you have enough defense.... I was tanking the ITF with my shield tank and he has 51% defense all by himself. And... we had a Widow on the team and a FF defender. I have the combat stats displayed on that guy so I can watch for cascade failure before it kills me. As we began the first mission, I noticed I had 104% melee defense. As you might guess, the Cimerorans couldn't do jack.
As I posted earlier in this thread, they got my invuln down to -100% base def. Somewhere between my invuln's defense (25%-ish) and that 104% figure, you start to be able to laugh off defense debuffs. I didn't think to check at the time, but does anyone know how much debuff a Cimeroran applies? Is it the standard broadsword numbers?
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
This is a mixed bag, even on the same content. As an example, when I was still leveling up my WP/Fire Tanker, my first ITF run (SKed up)was pretty miserable. I didn't have Tough and I didn't have a large source of +maxhp (maybe one accolade and whatever I was getting from CI). Whenever I caught myself without SoW up, I was eaten alive. Even with SoW up I was often on a downward spiral.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
So I'm curious about how a WP/ Tanker fares against cascading def failure.
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After getting Tough and more set bonuses, it became a lot easier. A big bonus that Tankers get over Brutes is the fact they can hit the 90% res cap with Tough + SoW, where a Brute would still be at ~75%. Even with SoW down, anything more than two small oranges will bring me to the cap again. On top of that, I sit at ~3160 max hp. What I generally do is just fight until I get low on hp (~25% hp) then pop SoW and regen back to full. It's almost always recharged before I need it again, if not, I'll use oranges instead. The only thing that is remotely dangerous to my Tank on the ITF is rushing the second mission and getting stuck fighting Nictus and Romans at the same time.
Defense debuffs and mixed damage types can be rough on WP. Once its defense crashes, it doesn't have the res to allow regen to keep it up all by itself. I'm not saying that WP will instantly faceplant, but if interventions aren't made (control, inspirations, team help, etc) you will die. Mixed damage types without def debuffs (or large tohit buffs)? Back to being easy to manage.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
However if Def failure ruins a WP Tankers day as well, then the mixed mitigation is not really working (in this one extreme circumstance).
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Despite being more susceptible to def debuffs than some of their peers, I'd say WP really doesn't have much to complain about. (Builds like mine with a heavy emphasis on def are pretty ridiculous.)
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Willpower is my preferred tanker for any of the Rularuu TFs, and I routinely tank Lady Grey on a Spines/WP scrapper. The defense debuff liability is noticeable, but it is generally made up by your regen. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just because a set doesn't work well in one "extreme circumstance" doesn't mean anything. Look at the two sets with exceptional def resistance (SR, Shield) that are unlikely to ever drop much below 45% def. Okay, so the ITF isn't a problem. Now let's try Rularuu, DE, or large groups of Nemesis. All that def resistance they have does jack against those groups' tohit buffs. (To be fair, Shield would handle it better than SR if they took Tough/OwtS - they can hit 90% s/l res and the hp cap when it's up.)
Despite being more susceptible to def debuffs than some of their peers, I'd say WP really doesn't have much to complain about. (Builds like mine with a heavy emphasis on def are pretty ridiculous.) |
Also, many of the old defense based sets (except Stone) have a psi hole, and psi damage is soething that WP gives better protection against. On the ITF I have a worse time against the seafood and dustbunnies around the cyst crystals than against the Romans.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
This is basically my point.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
After getting Tough and more set bonuses, it became a lot easier.
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That without outside IO bonuses and power pools, the mixed mitigation of regeneration and resistances isn't enough to survive alphas or spike damage.
Obviously IOs are available to everyone and all sets get different value from IOs. I personally think things are skewed too heavily in favor of building for +DEF.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
A big bonus that Tankers get over Brutes is the fact they can hit the 90% res cap with Tough + SoW, where a Brute would still be at ~75%. Even with SoW down, anything more than two small oranges will bring me to the cap again.
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Of course, it's significantly harder for Brutes to reach 90%.
The hit point difference is definitely very important however.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
The only thing that is remotely dangerous to my Tank on the ITF is rushing the second mission and getting stuck fighting Nictus and Romans at the same time.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Defense debuffs and mixed damage types can be rough on WP. Once its defense crashes, it doesn't have the res to allow regen to keep it up all by itself.
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Willpower as a set, doesn't actually have much Defense to crash to begin with. It all comes from outside sources, from power pools and IOs.
So if the resistance and regen are not enough to keep it alive, your only choice is to rely on an outside source of defenses which are effectively unreliable facing defense debuffing.
Combined that with the fact that Willpower gets no resistance vs. recovery or regeneration debuffs (which are willpower's hallmark traits), and it leaves me scratching my head a bit about some of the design of the set.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Despite being more susceptible to def debuffs than some of their peers, I'd say WP really doesn't have much to complain about. (Builds like mine with a heavy emphasis on def are pretty ridiculous.)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Willpower is my preferred tanker for any of the Rularuu TFs, and I routinely tank Lady Grey on a Spines/WP scrapper. The defense debuff liability is noticeable, but it is generally made up by your regen.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
On the ITF I have a worse time against the seafood and dustbunnies around the cyst crystals than against the Romans.
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I have more issues on the first mission, facing nothing but massed romans at every turn.
Quote:
This is a pretty big leap of logic. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This is basically my point.
That without outside IO bonuses and power pools, the mixed mitigation of regeneration and resistances isn't enough to survive alphas or spike damage. Obviously IOs are available to everyone and all sets get different value from IOs. I personally think things are skewed too heavily in favor of building for +DEF. |
First, you're taking a statement about my experience with WP in a very specific circumstance as evidence of WP's failings elsewhere. Second, you're imposing artificial limitations on what powers (and presumably buffs/insps) are used. The vibe I get is that the Tanker shouldn't have any issues with the ITF running no pool powers, just SOs, and no buffs.
That's insane. The only Tanker that stands a chance against those odds is a Stone Armor Tank running Granite and Rooted - but even they will succumb if the battle lasts long enough.
As for leveling up via normal content (including TFs, before Tough/Weave), I honestly don't remember it being too much different than other Tankers I played. Was I unstoppable? No. Did I use inspirations and/or teammates to survive? Yes. So far, that's been the case on every Tanker I've leveled. The big difference with WP is that with average mitigation from several sources, it gets a lot stronger very easily.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Actually, that's scrappers that have a 75% resistance cap. Brutes have the same cap as Tankers, 90% Paragon Wiki Link to Limits
Of course, it's significantly harder for Brutes to reach 90%. The hit point difference is definitely very important however. |
If you're curious, a Tanker with as much +hp focus as you would have 3125 hp. That 625 hp is amplified by your mitigation, and also serves to increase how much hp/sec you regenerate (125 hp/sec vs 156.25 hp/sec).
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That's odd, because I have no fear of massed nictus at all. It's only the mass fast attacking, -def attacks with spike damage from the Romans that I need to be concerned about.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That's my point exactly.
Willpower as a set, doesn't actually have much Defense to crash to begin with. It all comes from outside sources, from power pools and IOs. So if the resistance and regen are not enough to keep it alive, your only choice is to rely on an outside source of defenses which are effectively unreliable facing defense debuffing. Combined that with the fact that Willpower gets no resistance vs. recovery or regeneration debuffs (which are willpower's hallmark traits), and it leaves me scratching my head a bit about some of the design of the set. |
Willpower does have regen resistance in Fast Healing. (It's not a lot, but it does have it.)
As I tried to illustrate previously with the Rularuu and DE, every set is susceptible to something mobs have - every set is weak to something (psi, def debuffs, -recharge, -tohit, +tohit, knockback, etc). Just because one of these vulnerabilities exists doesn't make the set weak. Willpower is, in my eyes, one of the strongest sets out there to powergame.
First, remember that mitigation from defense and resistance don't scale linearly in this game. Every percent means more than the last. For example, going from 0% to 50% res cuts incoming damage in half. It only takes an extra 25% (50% -> 75%) to cut it in half again. The same principle is true for defense, as well. WP has a nice base of both s/l res and exotic defense, so adding more of either makes a big difference.
Second, the set has a large regen component, which is exceptionally rare in the magnitude it WP offers. With the mitigation base it already has, the regen WP offers is amplified. For example, if you regen 50 hp/sec and take half damage, it would take 100 dps to overcome your regen - effectively doubling it. (If you have 75% res, it would quadruple it to requiring 200 dps.)
So buffs from pretty much anything can tip WP (even just base WP) into the realm of "extremely strong." Just FF/Ice shields or Fort, for example, would leave WP with 28.55% s/l def, 43.68% exotic def, and 39% psi def. If the WP took Weave, that would be 36.35% s/l def, 51.48% exotic def, 46.8% psi def. How about Tough + res shields (Sonic/Thermal)? Capped s/l res. (You can substitute Tough for SoW, too.) These aren't hard combinations to come by - and no IOs invested.
So, from a Tanker's perspective, I don't see a problem with the set, at all - def debuffs included.
[edit: Apologies to the OP for the hijack.]
I see no hijack, this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping would result.
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This is why Weave makes such a large difference for a WP Tanker. WP's weakness is supposed to be huge alphas from anything, and SoW is your given stopgap solution that can't be made available more often. But if you stop even 10-15% of the incoming hits from that alpha, you've made a great leap forward.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
As I tried to illustrate previously with the Rularuu and DE, every set is susceptible to something mobs have - every set is weak to something (psi, def debuffs, -recharge, -tohit, +tohit, knockback, etc). Just because one of these vulnerabilities exists doesn't make the set weak. Willpower is, in my eyes, one of the strongest sets out there to powergame.
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Any survival buff makes a noticeable difference on a WP tanker. The reflex scrapper isn't going to get enough resistance from the sonic defender to make a difference. On a WP, it's all good.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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No, that would be insane. I wouldn't recommend that |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
This is a pretty big leap of logic.
First, you're taking a statement about my experience with WP in a very specific circumstance as evidence of WP's failings elsewhere. Second, you're imposing artificial limitations on what powers (and presumably buffs/insps) are used. The vibe I get is that the Tanker shouldn't have any issues with the ITF running no pool powers, just SOs, and no buffs. That's insane. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
As for leveling up via normal content (including TFs, before Tough/Weave), I honestly don't remember it being too much different than other Tankers I played. Was I unstoppable? No. Did I use inspirations and/or teammates to survive? Yes. So far, that's been the case on every Tanker I've leveled. The big difference with WP is that with average mitigation from several sources, it gets a lot stronger very easily.
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I can say as a brute, I wasn't really capable of taking Alphas for groups (which is pretty much expected of brutes, and I'd stop playing them if this wasn't part of their role) until I began getting +DEF to SM/L - specifically from IO sets. The amount provided by willpower and powerpools (weave, combat jumping) wasn't enough.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
I can see why you said this, but you're misreading it. The Brute wouldn't be at 75% because of the resistance cap, rather, that is all they can achieve with WP + Tough + SoW. They would need either inspirations or outside buffs to push to 90% res. This means the Brute is taking 2.5 times as much damage. I'd say that's a very important difference.
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I'm not worried about the defense disparity between a brute and tanker. I'm focused on how Willpower tankers fare against cascading defense failure.
So these are my (honest) questions:
- Can a WP tanker with high to capped HP & massive regen survive once their defenses have crashed?
- Can they do it without SoW, without Inspirations?
I expect the answer to number 2 to be no, but if it's yes I'll be pleased.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
I said the only thing that I consider dangerous is fighting Romans and Nicti at the same time. Either enemy in isolation are impotent to my Tank,
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So effectively, massed romans with -def debuffs pose no threat?
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Willpower has ~5.15% s/l def, ~20.28% f/c/e/ne def, and ~15.6% to psi. I wouldn't consider that to be a considerable helping of defense.
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I personally disagree specifically regarding S/L, and that the vast majority of your +DEF vs. S/L is going to come from Power Pools and IOs. So Defense vs. S/L is not a major part of the Willpower secondary itself.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Willpower does have regen resistance in Fast Healing. (It's not a lot, but it does have it.)
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
As I tried to illustrate previously with the Rularuu and DE...
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Except that not all problem enemies are equal.
- def debuffs are everywhere, and are heavily represented across many enemy types throughout the game.
The Rularuu exist in game in an extremely limited capacity. You can play SR and actively avoid fighting them with ease. Avoiding content with -def debuffs on the other hand would be extremely limiting.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
So, from a Tanker's perspective, I don't see a problem with the set, at all - def debuffs included.
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Thanks for the reply.
I would like to take the opportunity to reiterate the fact that Castle buffed Invulnerability about a year ago by a pretty fair margin: +5 Defense obtained by removing the penalty from Unyielding, Slow and Endurance Drain resistance in passives plus an additional 5+ish additional damage resistance on those passives, and higher defense with smaller enemy groups on invincibility. Granted, I wouldn't mind another power boost - but I'm grateful for what was given and don't want Castle to ever think otherwise.
Upgrading Gauntlet is probably a more feasible option for an upgrade at this point in my opinion. However, I am finding this discussion has become very interesting.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
The reflex scrapper isn't going to get enough resistance from the sonic defender to make a difference.
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That is a really big overstatement. Giving an SR any kind of buff BESIDES Defense is very effective.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Scrappers are attack types with defense they tend to kill quickly therefore taking less damage, I don't think it is the defense as much as it is the AT| In the past, I've not played characters with Defense extensively. That's changed recently, as I've been playing several Defense oriented characters. For reference, I have a L35 []MA/Shield Scrapper, a L38 FF/Nrg Defender and a MA/Nin Stalker. I also have a MA/SR Scrapper, but he's much lower level. |
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| I am very familiar with Invulnerability, and I have to say that, in general, it's very good. However, my perception has been skewed by not having seen Defense in action. Now I'm left wondering about how "invulnerable" invulnerability really is. |
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| My highest level character is The Canadian Shield. He's a L44 Inv/SS Tank. I enjoy him and the Tank style, but I've found lately that my Defense-based characters are more durable than HE is, and none of them are Tanks! That seems odd to me. |
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| Part of it is that the Defense based characters aren't saddled by many effects that need to hit them, but don't do damage, while the Invulnerable character suffers. For example, when fighting a Dark foe, his attacks will reduce your accuracy (to hit, whatever). The Invulnerable character will suffer that penalty while a Defense character will not. |
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Heh, the irony is that I really don't have many difficulties with my Tank as it is, I'm just comparing to other characters.
As an example, I did a mission teamed with a SR Scrapper in which we encountered a tough EB (AE Mission, it was a custom boss). We found HE was bettre able to tank than I was. That stung my Tanky sensibilities. I mean, suddenly I wasn't able to do the job I'm supposed to be able to do. |
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| Well, part of the issue is that many people can't afford IOs. |
If you are level 44 then you are getting level 50 recipe drops, even if you don't play the market you can sell those to the store for like 100k and you should get like 2 - 3 per mish so doing like 3 mishes gets you 1 mil not counting mish bonus and what you get for enemies. IOs on the market aren't that over priced and even so it is so easy to get merits and get your own IOs, and these are just the things you do without using the market. So yeah, you are just being lazy and you don't feel like taking your time to make your toon better.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
The only problem left with invulnerability is that the non s/l resistance values are 10% too low and they have been since issue 5. I moaned and complained about it to Statesman when issue 5 was in beta and got no response.I'd think Castle is much more reasonable than Jack ever was.
The problem really shows itself when facing boss/eb/av foes that deal primarily non s/l damage. Every tank can reasonably handle s/l damage, invul is better at it than most however the e/n/f/c/t resistances aren't always enough to slow the incoming damage to a survivable level ( IE the teammate with heals being able to cover you). Granted I've since patched that hole in survivability with IO bonuses, but without IOs, the set "feels" extremely weak against anything that is not s/l damage. Getting up to 40/45% resistance would help that feel without making Invulnerability overly immune to the damage either.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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You know Castle did increase all the passives,which boosted the non-s/l resistance somewhat (and sort of boosted the defense, through the removal of the def penalty from Unyielding)? I mean, it has been increased since Issue 5.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
The only problem left with invulnerability is that the non s/l resistance values are 10% too low and they have been since issue 5. I moaned and complained about it to Statesman when issue 5 was in beta and got no response.I'd think Castle is much more reasonable than Jack ever was.
The problem really shows itself when facing boss/eb/av foes that deal primarily non s/l damage. Every tank can reasonably handle s/l damage, invul is better at it than most however the e/n/f/c/t resistances aren't always enough to slow the incoming damage to a survivable level ( IE the teammate with heals being able to cover you). Granted I've since patched that hole in survivability with IO bonuses, but without IOs, the set "feels" extremely weak against anything that is not s/l damage. Getting up to 40/45% resistance would help that feel without making Invulnerability overly immune to the damage either. |
I don't know that 40-45% is right -- some of the pure resistance sets like Fire and Dark have resistances right in that ballpark, and they get no defense (although usually they do get a good heal, I admit).
Right now my Inv Tanker gets 30-32% resistance to the unusual damage types, good defense, and an occasional self heal/hp boost in Dull Pain. Frankly I find that already makes me tougher than anything but a Stone Tanker running Granite (and maybe tied with Willpower).
Sure, Inv goes down fighting in certain extreme situations -- other Tankers do too, however. Inv is usually the last one standing in my experience. I'm not sure a fix is required. Shouldn't extreme situations be hazardous?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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To be precise, Fire gets no defense. Dark gets 5% to all in Cloak of Darkness.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I don't know that 40-45% is right -- some of the pure resistance sets like Fire and Dark have resistances right in that ballpark, and they get no defense (although usually they do get a good heal, I admit).
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40% would be enough to make a hard hit still pretty hard ( say an ET for 3200 energy and 800 smashing damage would be 2320 at 30% res vs 2000 at 40%) but not drop you before your teammates could react.
Something most certainly is wrong when a supposedly invulnerable tank dies almost instantly to non s/l damage foes. The most blatant areas this is seen is in the 40s end of the game where you are fighting demons,shadows,robots and various non s/l dealing AVs.
I don't know how many times I'd get owned too fast for my team to help prior to having IOs. The whole point of this buff would be to help invul survive long enough to get a heal from teammates, but not long enough to be immortal when solo and facing similar amounts of threats.
What I'd do is add to Invinciblity a resistance buff to all non s/l /psi damage of 11% for one foe and then a unresistable resistance debuff of -1% per foe. So as your defense goes down, your resistance would go up slightly. This would be unenhanceable.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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As much as I like the sound of that, at base for Tanks Inv/ already gets 70% res to s/l and 31.2% res to all but psi, also with just one enemy in your range you get 17% def to all but psi, so with that being said it is like you really have 65% res to all and like over 100% to s/l and that is base with just SOs no tough or weave included, plus a self heal that increases hp, not to mention you aren't really running that many toggles.| What I'd do is add to Invinciblity a resistance buff to all non s/l /psi damage of 11% |
I wouldn't be mad if Inv got that though, however 5% would be a little more even out.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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With the exception of Stone and Ice, I have seen every tank set in action and honestly Invulnerability is THE BEST or at worst a very close second place. Obviously, if you love the set and play the set, you know its weaknesses and want to see it improved, but as an honest outside observer, I would think this kind of improvement would make it undisputably the best tank set.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
What I'd do is add to Invinciblity a resistance buff to all non s/l /psi damage of 11% for one foe and then a unresistable resistance debuff of -1% per foe. So as your defense goes down, your resistance would go up slightly. This would be unenhanceable.
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I would rather see them tone down the overwhelming amount of defense debuffing out in the game. I mean seriously, every time I play a toon and think about defense boosting, I go out and play and realize that unless I can soft-cap, the first time I get in a fight all that defense I worked so hard to get, will just disappear in a puff of gun-fire.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
If you are looking for a non-IO build, the one Heraclea posted is a thing of Beauty.
It brought me back to the early days of my SG leader's Tanker.
To add my own (non-tanker) perspective for you, I have seen 2 melee characters in the time I have been playing that did things that amazed me. The first was my own SG leader with his INV/SS. The amount of punishment he could take with a mass of villains around him was incredible. Teaming with him made me feel completely un-needed. This was before IOs and pre-ED even. The second time I have been impressed in this way was recently with an IOed out Katana-Invuln scrapper. You want to play a Tank that is not a Tanker, thats the way to go.
Invulnerability works really well, and as far as comparing it to a defense-based character, I dont think you really can do that. Invulnerability is in a class all by itself.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF