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Yeah, 20% base elemental and energy resists is awfully low, even enhanceable. For some reason, I thought Unyielding was granting 20% resistances to non-S/L/Psi damage types, which would make Invulnerability reasonably rugged against all but Psi. That's where I'd put the improvement if I were gonna change things.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
I can assure you 17% defense and 31% resistance doesn't help very much against the targets I'm trying to argue a buff for : Arch Villains. They WILL hit you and that 31% resistance doesn't take enough of an edge off to matter in the more non s/l fights.
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That said, Invuln is still a really excellent set. The combination of a solid defense base to build set bonuses from and decent resistances, and even a good max HP buff all make the set worth playing if you want a really tanky tank, warts and all.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
I remember back in the day, just before issue 5, I was planning to respec my invul tank into nothing but Unyielding and the passives. He would have had 80% resistance to all and 17.5% defense.
Guess what...I'm not Johnny Butane, I'm not asking for that back. What I am saying however, is the same thing I've been saying since issue 5 beta - the non s/l resistance is a tad too low.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear:
We are discussing the idea that Invuln "underperforms" with NO support, NO IOs, against an AV, without using US.
"Normally" AV fights are exactly where you would use US. So ask the question, does Invuln "underperform" in AV fights when using Unstoppable, and I believe the answer is Clearly "No".
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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And they raised it a bit with the recent pass.
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Originally Posted by Lohenien
I remember back in the day, just before issue 5, I was planning to respec my invul tank into nothing but Unyielding and the passives. He would have had 80% resistance to all and 17.5% defense.
Guess what...I'm not Johnny Butane, I'm not asking for that back. What I am saying however, is the same thing I've been saying since issue 5 beta - the non s/l resistance is a tad too low. |
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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The answer to the first question is "yes". |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
So these are my (honest) questions:
I expect the answer to number 2 to be no, but if it's yes I'll be pleased. |
As to the second question, the answer is "maybe". WP's resistance blunts a good deal of physical damage, and incoming physical damage may not be enough to overcome regen, especially if the WP's regen is being buffed by surrounding enemies. Non physical damage or ranged damage may require Inspirations or SoW. Then again, that's what they're for.
My WP scrappers get off even easier. The Caltrops power from Weapon Mastery can do wonders for an overwhelmed scrapper. I use it regularly while working the Roman wall, where it is possible for your defenses to crash hard. It makes an even handier panic button than SoW or most inspirations.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Wow, Great Insight Heraclea. I have a MA/WP scrapper and was planning to take the weapon mastery powers, but had debated on Caltrops VS Web Grenade. Good to know this little tidbit.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
The answer to the first question is "yes".
As to the second question, the answer is "maybe". WP's resistance blunts a good deal of physical damage, and incoming physical damage may not be enough to overcome regen, especially if the WP's regen is being buffed by surrounding enemies. Non physical damage or ranged damage may require Inspirations or SoW. Then again, that's what they're for. My WP scrappers get off even easier. The Caltrops power from Weapon Mastery can do wonders for an overwhelmed scrapper. I use it regularly while working the Roman wall, where it is possible for your defenses to crash hard. It makes an even handier panic button than SoW or most inspirations. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Great Choice, I have MA/WP/Weap Scrap for farming he does the wall in Cim and -1/8 level mishes, to test his full ability he does +2/8, but weapons is a good combo as stated caltrops does a great job at mitigate and Exploding Shuriken is a great AoE to have.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Wow, Great Insight Heraclea. I have a MA/WP scrapper and was planning to take the weapon mastery powers, but had debated on Caltrops VS Web Grenade. Good to know this little tidbit.
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Sorry to go off topic.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Yup, cal trops are quite helpful for Blasters and Stalkers, too. Adds some nice mitigation, etc.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Maybe, if they added a slow movement and recharge debuff to Burn, Fire's stock would rise a bit too. I've tried to use Burn similarly, but feared mobs move out of the area too quickly to have much of an effect.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Yup, cal trops are quite helpful for Blasters and Stalkers, too. Adds some nice mitigation, etc.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Uh...maybe...although I don't recall it happening to me. But the point is, OTHER Tankers are ALSO getting pasted by those same AVs in a few hits (unless they have team support, and always excepting a Granite-form Stoner). Why should Invuln be fixed to become massively better than them?
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Originally Posted by Lohenien
I can assure you 17% defense and 31% resistance doesn't help very much against the targets I'm trying to argue a buff for : Arch Villains. They WILL hit you and that 31% resistance doesn't take enough of an edge off to matter in the more non s/l fights.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
That person forgot that the 17% is base with just SOs, if you include 8% from weave you now have 23% leaving you and if you have CJ or Hover up to 26% toss in a steadfast now you have 29% leaving you 15% away from the softcap and you really only need to build for f/c/e/n since s/l you only take 10%, 3 slot Aegis in 5 resists and now you softcap f/c, 6 slot your attacks with Mako Bites and use 3 slots of a PBAoE for Eradication and now you have e/n. All that softcapped with just one enemy in Invincibility.
This is why I don't think it needs a buff it is very easy to max it out. You could also use the wedding band temp power too to take you resists to another level and the power itself is pretty much perma.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Quote:
This is why, if you're tanking something stronger than bosses or EB's, you can use inspies.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
I can assure you 17% defense and 31% resistance doesn't help very much against the targets I'm trying to argue a buff for : Arch Villains. They WILL hit you and that 31% resistance doesn't take enough of an edge off to matter in the more non s/l fights.
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This is why, if you're tanking something stronger than bosses or EB's, you start looking to set bonuses to improve your numbers.
With base enhancements, Inv is "okay". For high-threat content, you need to put some thought (and inf) into your build.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I've purposely left out IOs and pool powers because my argument is for an improvement that I don't "need"(my build on my invul is softcapped to s/l/e/n with one foe in range of Invinc) but that players who don't or won't IO out their toons. The missing survivability is easy to fix with IOs, and my invul feels incredibly tough with them. The whole point is, not everyone can or will be able to make up for their powersets unfair weaknesses.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
This is why, if you're tanking something stronger than bosses or EB's, you can use inspies.
This is why, if you're tanking something stronger than bosses or EB's, you start looking to set bonuses to improve your numbers. With base enhancements, Inv is "okay". For high-threat content, you need to put some thought (and inf) into your build. |
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Getting pasted by archvillains and giant monsters when you try to fight them without inspirations, IO set bonuses, or help from other players is both WAD and WAI. I don't see your argument getting much (any) traction until and unless you can show that Invuln is having difficulties facing content that is theoretically supposed to be soloable, and that those difficulties are greater than those of other sets.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
I've purposely left out IOs and pool powers because my argument is for an improvement that I don't "need"(my build on my invul is softcapped to s/l/e/n with one foe in range of Invinc) but that players who don't or won't IO out their toons. The missing survivability is easy to fix with IOs, and my invul feels incredibly tough with them. The whole point is, not everyone can or will be able to make up for their powersets unfair weaknesses.
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I wouldn't say no to a small buff to Invuln's non-S/L resistances, I'm just not seeing an argument here that supports it. At least not in any sense that will have any credibility to the devs.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
Yes, and I can't see how a non-IO'd tank (Invuln or otherwise) could not handle the AVs in this game, if they have team support. You don't have as much of a cushion, sure, but planning to take on AVs is part of the game. If you're running the STF, you make sure you have a way to handle the patrons and Recluse, etc.
Also factoring in that Smash/Lethal are the most common damage types, and that you can add on to resistances to those significantly for Invuln, makes it pretty questionable that it needs even more resists elsewhere. You can get in the 60% range to Smash/Lethal for an Invuln without Tough, which is quite high with defense added in to the equation.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
70%, iirc.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
You can get in the 60% range to Smash/Lethal for an Invuln without Tough, which is quite high with defense added in to the equation.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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"Unfair"???|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
The whole point is, not everyone can or will be able to make up for their powersets unfair weaknesses.
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Invuln is one of the tougher sets in the game. No one should be able to stroll through high-end content with no assistance except maybe a stone tank, who pays for it with horrific penalties to movement, damage and recharge.
The weaknesses of invuln are reasonable and balanced.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Originally Posted by Lohenien
I've purposely left out IOs and pool powers because my argument is for an improvement that I don't "need"(my build on my invul is softcapped to s/l/e/n with one foe in range of Invinc) but that players who don't or won't IO out their toons. The missing survivability is easy to fix with IOs, and my invul feels incredibly tough with them. The whole point is, not everyone can or will be able to make up for their powersets unfair weaknesses.
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For balance issue, you have to take into account pool powers and insps, because that's the "normal" way of playing the game. Voluntarily imposing more penalities will obviously make things harder.
And even with pool powers and insps, you technically aren't supposed to be able to beat an EB solo. The contact always warn you that you SHOULD bring friends.
So, working as intented, you're not supposed to beat an EB solo. If you can do it, great, you're better then what is expected from the average player.
If you can't do it....while posing even more restrictions on your character... then that's the results that should have happenned. =P
edit: Oh, and if you insist on not using unstoppable, then you aren't really using invulnerability. It's like complainning that /stone is the worst set.... but skipping granite.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
I would disagree with one point here. I think you're supposed to be able to handle an EB solo, but not an AV. Granted, some will do better than others, but I think this is the intent (or EBs wouldn't spawn in missions set for solo play).
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Yeah, mine will be sitting at 64%, but I didn't slot up Resist Physical damage (saved those slots to pick up some psychic damage resist).|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
70%, iirc.
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And Ironblade hit it on the head... Tanks should be tough, but not to the point where the whole game is easy mode... there should be some balance.
*added*
EBs are easier than AVs, Ultimo, but some ATs can solo easier than others. A tank should be able to solo the EBs in the level 40 story arcs, but that's going to get a lot more iffy with a Blaster, for instance (even though a Blaster can solo just fine for most things at that level). So it's kind of moot here, as Tankers will be fine solo. The Madame of Mystery might be a little rough, but she's hard for everyone.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
I would agree and using inspirations to assist you in the battle is not only wise but efficient. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I would disagree with one point here. I think you're supposed to be able to handle an EB solo, but not an AV. Granted, some will do better than others, but I think this is the intent (or EBs wouldn't spawn in missions set for solo play).
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On a tank, I use reds.
On a brute, I use purples/blues.
On a scrapper, purples/blues.
On a blaster, a sheeeeeetload of purples and possibly a couple breakfrees.
etc. etc.
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The mission text that tells us we should bring friends hasn't been updated in most cases since elite bosses didn't even exist and we were guaranteed archvillains in those missions. Elite Bosses are a border case - harder than any other solo content, easier than any other team content (well, excect the abomination that is simultaneous click missions, which should be removed from the game with extreme prejudice). Most characters built with any attention at all to soloability will be able to solo most elite bosses, if they use inspirations. In situations where you can't, it's either an EB who is inherently unfriendly to your character (ie, heavy psi damage vs. Invuln) or a character who is either by power set selection or simple build choices bad at soloing.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
For balance issue, you have to take into account pool powers and insps, because that's the "normal" way of playing the game. Voluntarily imposing more penalities will obviously make things harder.
And even with pool powers and insps, you technically aren't supposed to be able to beat an EB solo. The contact always warn you that you SHOULD bring friends. So, working as intented, you're not supposed to beat an EB solo. If you can do it, great, you're better then what is expected from the average player. If you can't do it....while posing even more restrictions on your character... then that's the results that should have happenned. =P edit: Oh, and if you insist on not using unstoppable, then you aren't really using invulnerability. It's like complainning that /stone is the worst set.... but skipping granite. |
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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If they choose to play gimped, they get gimped performance. It really is that simple.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
I've purposely left out IOs and pool powers because my argument is for an improvement that I don't "need"(my build on my invul is softcapped to s/l/e/n with one foe in range of Invinc) but that players who don't or won't IO out their toons.
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To take it to absurd levels, you should start arguing that all content in the game should be "doable" with TO's or better yet, completely unslotted.
Removing the benefits of careful IO/set/build selection because someone with a 1 million inf SO build doesn't feel as tough as someone with a half-billion inf IO set build is NOT the way to do it.
Would I be HAPPIER if I could def cap with common IOs or SO? SURE!
But it'd be hideously unbalanced in comparison to other defensive power sets then.
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| The missing survivability is easy to fix with IOs, and my invul feels incredibly tough with them. The whole point is, not everyone can or will be able to make up for their powersets unfair weaknesses. |
Today, I started a new blaster. At level 4, it was ALREADY sitting on over 100K inf. Simply from SALVAGE DROPS. I have toons in their mid-20's that are sitting on over 25 MILLION inf.
At that rate of earnings, IO'ing up is NOT cost prohibitive. Nor particularly mentally taxing. There are builds all over this board for just about any particular AT/Power set combo you could ask for.
Also, the weaknesses of the power set aren't "unfair". They're WAD (working as designed). Every set out there has weaknesses. Trying to mitigate them by having the devs eliminate them smacks of entitlement issues.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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As someone who's played Invuln extensively in the last 16-ish months, I feel free to disagree with this.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
edit: Oh, and if you insist on not using unstoppable, then you aren't really using invulnerability. It's like complainning that /stone is the worst set.... but skipping granite.
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Unstoppable is an "Oh *BLEEP!* button". It's NOT meant to be regularly used.
If it were, it wouldn't impose BOTH an End AND an HP crash the way it does. Indeed, in the last 10-12 months, on my primary build, I've used Unstoppable exactly TWICE. Once successfully, once not (as the opponent was doing enough damage to render my resists trivial). My secondary build doesn't even have it. It's defense capped and has resists about as high as they can go (plus the various accolades to fall back on).
Thus far, I haven't missed it in the least.
Pre-IO'ing out, it still has a SMALL amount of utility. But again, only in highly emergent situations where you, hopefully, have a chance of either beating the opponent inside the 3 minute death sentence or being able to back out safely and have someone off-tank you during the crash phase.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I wouldn't be mad if Inv got that though, however 5% would be a little more even out.
I can assure you 17% defense and 31% resistance doesn't help very much against the targets I'm trying to argue a buff for : Arch Villains. They WILL hit you and that 31% resistance doesn't take enough of an edge off to matter in the more non s/l fights.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.