Your post confuses me. Invulnerability is a mix of resistance and defense, and with a little IO slotting can easily soft-cap with one mob in range. Defense is a large part of Invulnerability's mitigation, even with SO slotting.
As far as maximizing defense, check out CMA's guide to soft-capping Inv for tankers.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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Well, part of the issue is that many people can't afford IOs. Really, though, I'm just looking to start a little spitballing.
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Originally Posted by Starflier
Your post confuses me. Invulnerability is a mix of resistance and defense, and with a little IO slotting can easily soft-cap with one mob in range. Defense is a large part of Invulnerability's mitigation, even with SO slotting.
As far as maximizing defense, check out CMA's guide to soft-capping Inv for tankers. |
I felt like I'd gone back in time. You may have build problems or something gameplay. Possibly it as a set isn't how you imagined it to be.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Even without IO's though you can pack quite a bit of defense with one enemy in range,with Invinc, TH and say CJ and Weave, you're looking at close to 20% unslotted. Not soft-capped levels, but still significant when you're throwing it on top of resists. Invulnerability is a set based on layers of mitigation, much the same as Willpower. Defense & Resists working together to build a solid tank. Ignore a layer and you're asking to get your teeth kicked in.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, part of the issue is that many people can't afford IOs. Really, though, I'm just looking to start a little spitballing.
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They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
Heh, the irony is that I really don't have many difficulties with my Tank as it is, I'm just comparing to other characters.
As an example, I did a mission teamed with a SR Scrapper in which we encountered a tough EB (AE Mission, it was a custom boss). We found HE was bettre able to tank than I was. That stung my Tanky sensibilities. I mean, suddenly I wasn't able to do the job I'm supposed to be able to do.
Now you too can buy the remasterised version of Ultimo_'s greatest success, "My Inv/SS can't AFK near Hamidon, nor kill AVs in one Knockout Blow", also known under the alternative title "I want to be Superman, game balance be damned !" for the low price of $19.95.
Other hits include :
"My FF defender goes through his whole bar of endurance to kill two minions."
"Nosferatu is dramatically overpowered for an elite boss, I couldn't kill him on my tanker while using 38 inspirations, 14 shivans, 22 warburg nukes and a pet monkey."
"My blaster dies too much, the game is obviously broken as Ironman is a blaster and he's sturdy !"
--
In short, I'd answer seriously but the OP has already posted the exact same topic multiple times (wording it differently and waiting a few months to repost won't fool anyone who was there the first time around, sorry) and he never listens to what anyone else says unless it supports his argument (which is, in a nutshell, that he basically wants to play a multiplayer game with IDDQD/IDKFA). Don't bother trying to help him, that's not what he is looking for...
Begone, troll. I've NEVER posted on this topic before.
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Different powersets have different strengths and weaknesses, you know that.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Heh, the irony is that I really don't have many difficulties with my Tank as it is, I'm just comparing to other characters.
As an example, I did a mission teamed with a SR Scrapper in which we encountered a tough EB (AE Mission, it was a custom boss). We found HE was bettre able to tank than I was. That stung my Tanky sensibilities. I mean, suddenly I wasn't able to do the job I'm supposed to be able to do. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
What's your build?
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I'll bite and answer once again!
Shield scrapper and FF defender that are more survivable then a Tanker, that have access to Unstoppable? Are you comparing IOed character to an invuln who's not IOed? Do they have the fighting pool and not your tanker?
Not to be mean, but there's no way those two character can surpass an invuln tanker at survivability, unless you've build them baddly. Or focused the scrapper/defender on defence while focusing for something else on your tanker.
The scrapper who was better against the EB, was he IOed? Did he use more insps then you? Anyway, i can make a blapper that can stand EB damage, in melee. A lot of things can outlast tankers, if build for it compared to a non-IOed invuln.
I could make builds for you, but they are never good enouh, so hope that "helped" enough. =P
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
I'll bite and answer once again!
Shield scrapper and FF defender that are more survivable then a Tanker, that have access to Unstoppable? Are you comparing IOed character to an invuln who's not IOed? Do they have the fighting pool and not your tanker? Not to be mean, but there's no way those two character can surpass an invuln tanker at survivability, unless you've build them baddly. Or focused the scrapper/defender on defence while focusing for something else on your tanker. The scrapper who was better against the EB, was he IOed? Did he use more insps then you? Anyway, i can make a blapper that can stand EB damage, in melee. A lot of things can outlast tankers, if build for it compared to a non-IOed invuln. I could make builds for you, but they are never good enouh, so hope that "helped" enough. =P |
Usually, I build any character I make with an eye toward survivability. To that end, both the Scrapper and Defender have the Fighting Pool and Manuevers, and the Scrapper has Combat Jumping to boot. Their problem is usually endurance, but each has proven to be remarkably survivable. I'll admit, the Defender accomplishes this by use of PFF, but the Scrapper doesn't need to.
The Scrapper I was teamed with didn't tell me his build orif he was IOed, so that could be part of it. Either way, it was just that that experience started me wondering.
The point I'm trying to get at is that Resistance builds seem to me to be somewhat disadvantaged in that they're getting HIT. As I say, a foe that can't hit you can't affect you with non-damage effects.
As another example, I made an AE mission in which the enemy was a custom villain with dark powers. Among them is a self-heal that has to hit its target (I don't recall the name). My Invulnerability tank was entirely unable to defeat this character as it would heal itself constantly. As soon as it couldn't hit me (I used purple insps), he was a pushover.
In this regard, Defense is VASTLY superior to Resistance. By the time you get to higher level and you're into the realm of the Defense Soft Cap, you're more invulnerable than an invulnerable character.
I mean, Lord Recluse does so much damage that he can defeat a Resistance tanker without breaking a sweat, whereas a Defense Tanker would last much longer because Recluse would be unable to hit him.
I don't know, maybe I'm seeing a problem that isn't there, but it sure seems there's something going on that should be looked at.
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PFF doesn't count. Or i could pretend a blaster with hibernate is tougher then a granite tanker.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Usually, I build any character I make with an eye toward survivability. To that end, both the Scrapper and Defender have the Fighting Pool and Manuevers, and the Scrapper has Combat Jumping to boot. Their problem is usually endurance, but each has proven to be remarkably survivable. I'll admit, the Defender accomplishes this by use of PFF, but the Scrapper doesn't need to.
The Scrapper I was teamed with didn't tell me his build orif he was IOed, so that could be part of it. Either way, it was just that that experience started me wondering. The point I'm trying to get at is that Resistance builds seem to me to be somewhat disadvantaged in that they're getting HIT. As I say, a foe that can't hit you can't affect you with non-damage effects. As another example, I made an AE mission in which the enemy was a custom villain with dark powers. Among them is a self-heal that has to hit its target (I don't recall the name). My Invulnerability tank was entirely unable to defeat this character as it would heal itself constantly. As soon as it couldn't hit me (I used purple insps), he was a pushover. In this regard, Defense is VASTLY superior to Resistance. By the time you get to higher level and you're into the realm of the Defense Soft Cap, you're more invulnerable than an invulnerable character. I mean, Lord Recluse does so much damage that he can defeat a Resistance tanker without breaking a sweat, whereas a Defense Tanker would last much longer because Recluse would be unable to hit him. I don't know, maybe I'm seeing a problem that isn't there, but it sure seems there's something going on that should be looked at. |
Defence is superior to resistance. That's why 1% def = 2% res. The big problem is that +def is way easier to get via IO and for some reason, the def insps gives X2 what the resistance gives.
Outside of that, it mainly depends on your preference. Def doesn't suffer from debuff, but you're slave to luck. Going in a fight, you never know if the enemies will get 2-3 lucky hits, killing you instantly. You can theorycally play for one hour, never getting hit, then get hit every single time for the next hour. (highly improbable)
Res gives you stability. If X enemy can kill you in 45 secondes, chance are that it will always take 40-50 secondes. If you know you can resist something, you're sure you won't die.
As for dark powers, yes it works well against res. But same goes for other sets. Mind cuts through position defence build like if it was nothing. rad infection will make regen cry, etc.
It's just a rock paper game.
As for Lord Recluse, i really hope you aren't talking about the STF one. Cause he have so much to-hit, that he can't hit me 95% of the time, when i have 60%-70% def to all.
If you,re talking the normal LR, i've had much more facility using res character to beat him then def ones.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Invulnerability is the second to strongest armor a tank can have besides stone, wp comes close but invulnerbility is slighty better. That should solve your question. This is with and without IOs btw.
EDIT: if your comparing it to every class in the game, I still stick with my statement. If you disagree log in the invul and create an all boss match, then with the other toon your comparing it to, see how long they can survive with aggro cap pulled onto them.
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MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
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Having actually played both defense and resistance-based powersets, I can tell you that "defense is stronger" is an illusion created due to the overabundance of set bonuses and +Def pool powers that allow you to hit the defense softcap. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
In this regard, Defense is VASTLY superior to Resistance. By the time you get to higher level and you're into the realm of the Defense Soft Cap, you're more invulnerable than an invulnerable character.
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If you are going to talk about softcapped defenses (especially on Scrappers), then to be fair you also need to consider resistance-based or hybrid powersets with high levels of defense from IO set bonuses, otherwise you're comparing IO builds to non-IO ones, and of course the former are going to be stronger.
Resistance powersets have their own advantages over defense powersets, including mitigation that does not instantly crumble at the first sight of ToHitBuffs, is not susceptible to bad luck and (with the exception of SR and certain high-end SD builds) will not vaporize in a hail of machinegun fire. Machineguns that every level 10 thug in the game carries. There's also the little-mentioned fact that resistance powersets tend to get heals while defense sets often don't.
A Defense-based character will not last longer than a resistance-based one vs STF Lord Recluse, because one of the towers grants him a massive ToHitBuff. This is a bad case to use as an example because in this fight inspiration use and ally buffs play a bigger role than your build anyway.
Finally, I would not draw any conclusions from the fact that your Scrapper/Defender seemed to be tougher than your Tanker. In a team setting, Tanks will take more damage because they constantly draw aggro through Gauntlet, and it is very possible for a well-built Scrapper (or other AT) to appear tougher than a Tank who actually has much better mitigation simply because fewer enemies are attacking them.
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Truth. Tanks are going to draw more fire (unless you're hiding at the mission entrance, but then you're throwing any kind of true comparison out of the window). From the alpha on, your aura, gauntlet, and Taunt will be drawing more fire at you than any Scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Having actually played both defense and resistance-based powersets, I can tell you that "defense is stronger" is an illusion created due to the overabundance of set bonuses and +Def pool powers that allow you to hit the defense softcap.
If you are going to talk about softcapped defenses (especially on Scrappers), then to be fair you also need to consider resistance-based or hybrid powersets with high levels of defense from IO set bonuses, otherwise you're comparing IO builds to non-IO ones, and of course the former are going to be stronger. Resistance powersets have their own advantages over defense powersets, including mitigation that does not instantly crumble at the first sight of ToHitBuffs, is not susceptible to bad luck and (with the exception of SR and certain high-end SD builds) will not vaporize in a hail of machinegun fire. Machineguns that every level 10 thug in the game carries. There's also the little-mentioned fact that resistance powersets tend to get heals while defense sets often don't. A Defense-based character will not last longer than a resistance-based one vs STF Lord Recluse, because one of the towers grants him a massive ToHitBuff. This is a bad case to use as an example because in this fight inspiration use and ally buffs play a bigger role than your build anyway. Finally, I would not draw any conclusions from the fact that your Scrapper/Defender seemed to be tougher than your Tanker. In a team setting, Tanks will take more damage because they constantly draw aggro through Gauntlet, and it is very possible for a well-built Scrapper (or other AT) to appear tougher than a Tank who actually has much better mitigation simply because fewer enemies are attacking them. |
Defense really is illusionary in some respects. You think you're just peachy until some unlucky hits land, then you're up a creek (if you've played an SR character before, you should know this well). This is why Ninjitsu is superior to Super Reflexes for Stalkers: you have more tricks to use when your defense isn't enough. Like a heal, etc.
To focus in on Shields, my Shield Tanker is above the def cap to all positions: quite nice. He can motor and feel invincible in most situations (tanking on an RWZ raid is a joke with him, in all honesty). But once you face defense debuffs (unless you have a bigger cushion, like 50-70% def to all) or to hit buffs, it's another story. Nemesis is a big problem on teams once those lieutenants start tossing Vengeance to everyone, as your defense suddenly means nothing... and your resists and +HP aren't quite enough to cover it (One With the Shield can save you if you're fast enough activating it). Same thing with Devouring Earth and those darn cairns, etc. they drop.
And Ultimo, we really can't say what your issue is beyond perception if you aren't going to post a build. You went for some extra mitigation on your Shields, and we still don't know what your current build's issues are. Defense is indeed nice, but an Invuln Tanker has them, so a lot of the things you are saying is moot.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Invuln w/o set bonuses can bet 90% resistance to physical damage easily, on top of more than 35% defense to the same, assuming Weave and Combat Jumping. This is equal to anything the game can throw at you that isn't aimed specifically at Inv's weakness. You can tank the STF with such a build; that has more to do with insps and team buffs than with your primary at any rate. Any defender or controller with a useful buff sett (i.e. most anything but Kinetics) can do more for you than any set bonuses as well.
My toughest tanker, my go to gal for master runs, is Inv/Dark Melee. She is soft capped on smash/lethal and in the mid to high 30s versus all but psy. She also has constantly renewing to hit debuffs on her target that make her defenses more effective; and she has a small but worthwhile self heal in her attack chain as well. This tanker is both tougher and a lot more fun than my stone/axe, who admittedly has not been IOed out due to lack of interest.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Another issue is the bizarre imbalance of defense inspirations vs. resistance inspirations, which makes it easy to soft cap a moderate defense build, and borderline impossible to soft cap a moderate resistance build. Also the fact that most AT's cap at 75% resistance, which is comparable to about 37.5% defense, while all AT's cap at 45% defense.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Having actually played both defense and resistance-based powersets, I can tell you that "defense is stronger" is an illusion created due to the overabundance of set bonuses and +Def pool powers that allow you to hit the defense softcap.
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But really, when discussing Tankers, your core point is right - the superior of defense as a concept is an illusion created by the abundance of defense based pool powers and set bonuses. Defense and resistance both improve exponentially as they approach their respective caps, which for Tankers provide equivalent mitigation - but there's a lot more defense flying around to help you reach that point.
On the other hand, there's enough defense flying around for a resistance based character to get a substantial layer of defense - even soft capped defense to 1 or 2 positions, if he pleases, on top of his resistance. Such a character will be *VASTLY* tougher than a defense based character, because there's just not enough resistance out there for a defense based character to get any meaningful additional mitigation out of it.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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It's all about perception and specific situations. Your example of the AE enemy with the self-heal, in fact, has NOTHING to do with your issues about survivability. You're talking about a specific power set and how it worked for the enemy - not how it got you killed.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The point I'm trying to get at is that Resistance builds seem to me to be somewhat disadvantaged in that they're getting HIT. As I say, a foe that can't hit you can't affect you with non-damage effects.
As another example, I made an AE mission in which the enemy was a custom villain with dark powers. Among them is a self-heal that has to hit its target (I don't recall the name). My Invulnerability tank was entirely unable to defeat this character as it would heal itself constantly. As soon as it couldn't hit me (I used purple insps), he was a pushover. In this regard, Defense is VASTLY superior to Resistance. By the time you get to higher level and you're into the realm of the Defense Soft Cap, you're more invulnerable than an invulnerable character. |
Sure, defense keeps you from getting hit - until it doesn't. And that happens a lot. On the ITF, the Cimerorans got my invuln's base defense as low as -100%. Of course, they still couldn't kill him because he has 90% resistance to their attacks.
I've taken invuln, fire, ice and shield to 50. I have a dark tank at 41. You are mistaken about defense being the solution to all problems. My invuln is my toughest tank and has succeeded in all the hardest content available. Oh, and his build cost me under 30 million influence so it's not some IO'ed 'super build'.
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My experiences suggest that it's not Invulnerability Tanks that have this problem, it's your Invulnerability Tank.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Again Ultimo, what is your build? With more information we can better assess why it is that you're seeing what you're seeing. My BS/Inv. scrapper didn't live up to the Inv part very well until I did better job of power selection and slotting. Now he survives much better. With better information we might be able to help.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Sorry for hijacking your post, but with only one minor change it reflects my opinion on this topic. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
My experiences suggest that it's not Invulnerability Tanks that have this problem, it's you.
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I think you mean to say that it's my perception that's the issue. If so, I think I agree. Many points have been made that I hadn't considered.
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Originally Posted by SteelKing
Sorry for hijacking your post, but with only one minor change it reflects my opinion on this topic.
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Oh, I'll have to look up my build, but I'm afraid time is pressing at the moment. I'll get it this evening...
Tanker types are oddly attracted to threads containing the headline "The State Of ....."
Is it because of a want to give a seasoned viewpoint on said state, to rebut misrepresentations?
Sort of odd and silly when you think of it.
Off to start my "The State Of Bacon" thread.
In the past, I've not played characters with Defense extensively. That's changed recently, as I've been playing several Defense oriented characters. For reference, I have a L35 MA/Shield Scrapper, a L38 FF/Nrg Defender and a MA/Nin Stalker. I also have a MA/SR Scrapper, but he's much lower level.
I am very familiar with Invulnerability, and I have to say that, in general, it's very good. However, my perception has been skewed by not having seen Defense in action. Now I'm left wondering about how "invulnerable" invulnerability really is.
My highest level character is The Canadian Shield. He's a L44 Inv/SS Tank. I enjoy him and the Tank style, but I've found lately that my Defense-based characters are more durable than HE is, and none of them are Tanks! That seems odd to me.
Part of it is that the Defense based characters aren't saddled by many effects that need to hit them, but don't do damage, while the Invulnerable character suffers. For example, when fighting a Dark foe, his attacks will reduce your accuracy (to hit, whatever). The Invulnerable character will suffer that penalty while a Defense character will not.
I wonder if something shouldn't be added to Resistance sets that can mitigate this?
The other side of this is that Invulnerability does have a Defense aspect. I wondered if anyone had tried maximizing that, and could report on the effectiveness of it?