We Want You to PvP - Beginner's Guide (Freedom)
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 20:51 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
i'd remove those arbitrary ratings from the guide.
they create the illusion that if you're good at playing a difficult toon like a defender, it can actually be effective... yeah... ok. but a corruptor will do a better job; always.
just sayin.
also, play a stalker against good players; cause a 1/5 is way off. playing a good stalker (ie, actualling ASing and using sharks/ranged as a follow-up) is not as easy as it sounds (not saying that it's hard for me, but i've seen some REALLY REALLY horrible stalkers in freedom).
Ares, this is a good guide and just the sort of "for dummies" advice that I appreciate seeing for any aspect of the game, be it PvP, marketing, base design or whatever.
Unfortunately, I feel that if PvP in CoX essentially requires learning a completely different game, I would just buy a completely different game with better built-in PvP.
Good luck!
An anecdote for the pro-PvPers (including the OP) reading to consider (Note that this in by far NOT the only time I've encountered something like this. just keeping it to one for brevity's sake (HA!) ):
A few months ago, I gathered up three of my mostly RP PvE friends to take some of our characters into the Pocket D arena. At the time, we all were PvP novices. When it was just the four of us, going at it cluelessly, using the buff period in matches to broadcast in character quips, we had a blast.
About 30 minutes later, a PvP vet asked us if he could join our fun. Via tells, I made it VERY clear we were all newbs, were playing somewhat in character and were just messing around for fun. The response was something along the lines of "that's cool. I can live with that." Soon after, before the first match even starts, this person then says in team chat, "Hey a good friend of mine just logged on! Mind if he joins? More the merrier!" Being good natured RPing PvErs, we all say sure.
After one quick five minute free for all, the two quickly say "Hey how about we try you four against us two?" They then proceeded to farm us for kills for about 10-15 minutes. At several junctures, we suggested reformation of teams, 3 v 3 separating those two. No avail. Soon after, we all quit in frustration. After that I was hit with about a dozen tells from both the PvP vets with advice on how to pick apart and rebuild my character to be a GOOD PvP build. When I replied saying I wasn't interested I was then told I can either stay clueless or I can learn to PvP the right way if I wanted to have fun.
Since then, NONE of these other folks have shown ANY interest in PvP, even in our closed session between friends.
So what is the takeaway here?
If the PvP community TRULY wants to enroll more of the player base in PvP they REALLY need to learn a serious degree of sportsmanship. What does this mean?
- Show some restraint. No matter how tempting it is for recipe rolls, NEVER repeatedly trounce newbs. When you play checkers with your five year old niece/nephew, you don't beat them 8 times over and then lecture them that you are doing this for their own good so they will someday learn the lifesaving mad skillz of competitive checkering. Same goes for PvP. It's just not THAT important to most of us and insisting that it be so only makes hardcore PvPers look out of touch as they suck the fun out of the situation.
- Keep the smugness and smack talk in check. Just look at all the posts already in this thread that say that the "broadcast PvP" is one of the main reasons people avoid PvP. In many sports, if you say anything near what is commonly said in broadcast, you get a warning, quickly followed by penalties, and in most pro- and recreational situations--suspensions. WHY should PvP be any different? Just because SOME people say they have skin thick enough for that sort of verbal abuse should ANYONE who is mildly interested in the activity have to tolerate it? Until any in game PvP community learns to police it's own, this will remain a huge hurdle to wider appeal.
- Split up the stars. So two vets could trounce four newbs. So what? Why were they so resistant to being split up? Because they KNOW each other's strategies so well? Because they are afraid of losing? Because they were in the same room or on vent together? Because being vets they knew that their Dom and Scrapper were a good combo for an uber PvP duo? I dunno really. But this was NOT the first time I've encountered such resistance from PvP vets being split up from their Uberness. In other PvP situations--sports again--folks are readily willing to split up and even out teams to keep everyone involved at the local ball court. Tell me why are veteran PvPers so afraid of leveling playing fields?
- Which brings me to the next thing: Cool the competitiveness. Losing ALL THE TIME isn't cool. Winning ALL THE TIME isn't cool. Not everyone plays to win. In PvP and in many other arenas in life. If you aren't in a hardcore session with hardcore players, recognize that others may simply be there for the "fun factor" and that doesn't always mean fighting the toughest nail biting battles.
- Please keep in mind many of us will not go and rebuild our characters simply so they PvP better. With that in mind, be willing to hold back, play on a non PvP build, etc etc. And be a bit more reserved with the unsolicited advice that may make you feel like an expert regarding builds and strategies. Ever been in an athletic situation, from ballroom dance to ultimate frisbee to touch football, where one person just HAS TO coach everyone else that isn't as good as them? When you guys lecture people via tells, you come off as one of those jerks. Those lessons tend to just embarrass and alienate newcomers. So unless there is a request for advice or a structured lesson, show some reserve on the tips. It's one thing if you are on the same team and showing leadership--but singling out via tells advising rebuilds, enhancements, etc. is a bit much.
Anyways, to the OP good luck with your efforts. And commendations braving the not-so PvP friendly waters of the general forum.
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Very well put, I strongly agree with you. Up until i16 all I did was pvp, but with the new stuff out I got distracted leveling up new characters and IO'ing them out that i havent even pvp'ed in a while. You are exactly right that people need to loosen up when it comes to pvp and not take it as seriously as they do. It's good to be proud of your builds and of your accomplishments in pvp, but just remember that its all a game and is just for fun!|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
An anecdote for the pro-PvPers (including the OP) reading to consider (Note that this in by far NOT the only time I've encountered something like this. just keeping it to one for brevity's sake (HA!) ):
A few months ago, I gathered up three of my mostly RP PvE friends to take some of our characters into the Pocket D arena. At the time, we all were PvP novices. When it was just the four of us, going at it cluelessly, using the buff period in matches to broadcast in character quips, we had a blast. About 30 minutes later, a PvP vet asked us if he could join our fun. Via tells, I made it VERY clear we were all newbs, were playing somewhat in character and were just messing around for fun. The response was something along the lines of "that's cool. I can live with that." Soon after, before the first match even starts, this person then says in team chat, "Hey a good friend of mine just logged on! Mind if he joins? More the merrier!" Being good natured RPing PvErs, we all say sure. After one quick five minute free for all, the two quickly say "Hey how about we try you four against us two?" They then proceeded to farm us for kills for about 10-15 minutes. At several junctures, we suggested reformation of teams, 3 v 3 separating those two. No avail. Soon after, we all quit in frustration. After that I was hit with about a dozen tells from both the PvP vets with advice on how to pick apart and rebuild my character to be a GOOD PvP build. When I replied saying I wasn't interested I was then told I can either stay clueless or I can learn to PvP the right way if I wanted to have fun. Since then, NONE of these other folks have shown ANY interest in PvP, even in our closed session between friends. So what is the takeaway here? If the PvP community TRULY wants to enroll more of the player base in PvP they REALLY need to learn a serious degree of sportsmanship. What does this mean?
Anyways, to the OP good luck with your efforts. And commendations braving the not-so PvP friendly waters of the general forum. |
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Snipped for brevity.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
An anecdote for the pro-PvPers (including the OP) reading to consider (Note that this in by far NOT the only time I've encountered something like this. just keeping it to one for brevity's sake (HA!) ): ...Anyways, to the OP good luck with your efforts. And commendations braving the not-so PvP friendly waters of the general forum.
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An outstanding post, very well said.
I don't want to PvP. 90% of those who choose to PvP are jerks that I don't want to spend time around. The 10% who are not jerks don't make up for it.
I only encounter PvP when it's inflicted on me as I enter a PvP zone for a badge, Shivan, or Nuke that I want. I usually wait until the zone is empty and get out as soon as possible, as my toons are built for PvE, and my IO set bonuses are gone because I'm not the right level anymore. If I do run into one of the PvP ******** while I'm getting what I need, I generally leave as I cannot compete with them and they generally won't leave me alone.
And doing an expensive rebuild of my character just so I can spend more time with these jerks? No thank you.
"I don't want to PvP. 90% of those who choose to PvP are jerks that I don't want to spend time around. The 10% who are not jerks don't make up for it."
There are jerks everywhere you go, not just in CoX PVP. And where did you get the number 90% from?
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Personal experience? I dunno exactly, but I imagine there'd be a selection effect going there - those who aren't jerks are more likely to ignore him (or kill him once and then ignore him) and thus he won't run into nearly as many of them. 90% of the population might not be jerks, but it sure sometimes *seems* like it, since the jerks are the ones you are most likely to run into the most often.
| There are jerks everywhere you go, not just in CoX PVP. And where did you get the number 90% from? |
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Everywhere else (in COH), I can safely ignore them, or just leave the team if they are a real problem. Your only choice in a PvP zone is to leave the zone.|
Originally Posted by Dawk_Boy
"I don't want to PvP. 90% of those who choose to PvP are jerks that I don't want to spend time around. The 10% who are not jerks don't make up for it."
There are jerks everywhere you go, not just in CoX PVP. And where did you get the number 90% from? |
And the 90% is base on my personal experiences in the PvP zones. Either the zone is empty and I can do my business and get out, or there are some PvPer's in there who once they find me won't leave me alone until I'm dead or I've left the zone.
A PvE build that's lost most of it's IO set bonuses is no match for a PvP build optimized for the zone/combat level it's in.
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Awesome post, all of it. I totally agree with your points.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
An anecdote for the pro-PvPers (including the OP) reading to consider (Note that this in by far NOT the only time I've encountered something like this. just keeping it to one for brevity's sake (HA!) ):
|
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I'd have to disagree in part with it. As a vet, don't hold back, but don't let it sit at just that either. Let the newer players know why they're getting beat so bad and how they can fix it. In every case I've seen (both while learning and teaching PvP), it helps the newer players improve much faster than if you were to hold back.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Awesome post, all of it. I totally agree with your points.
Eco. |
As for smack talk, I say know your audience. If it's someone you're well acquainted with, go ahead and let it rip. If it's someone you don't know, keep it obviously humorous for all parties. On the flip side, if someone is bugging you with crap in BC, just hit the ignore button on them. You'll find smack talk drops considerably after only 2 or 3 clicks.
Not sure how it went on other servers, but on Virtue, we would balance out the zones if it looked like one side had a clear advantage. A lot of the best players in LoT/Ducks would switch sides so that there were good players on both sides. Same in the kickball matches we'd run. We would split buffers and experienced players between teams to keep matches even.
I, personally, would never recommend anyone to rebuild their character for PvP if that wasn't the focus of that character to begin with. Even with a "bad" build, there's a lot of advice out there to be had with how to make it work. Use it. Don't be embarassed if you get unsolicited advice. It doesn't make the other person a jerk. It shows that they want to see you in there more, and that they want you to improve.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Thoughts:
- appreciate the effort but given the choice between a root canal and playing PvP, I am afraid I tend to choose the root canal.
- the wannabe netkops whining about this being in the wrong section are attempting, consciously or not to deflect the argument and I recommend you not get suckered into taking their bait and going meta, debating whether the post belings in General Discussion or not. Over the last 20 or 30 years online (FIDO echoes, internet, etc.) I have noticed that many people, when they dislike the content of a thread and don't wish to engage it substantively, will instead attempt to hijack it with some argument about the formet, netiquette, etc.
- the limited range of builds useful in PvP (I leave it to experienced PvP players as to how accurate your summaries are) constitute one of the many reasons that PvP does not attract me. Trashtalk and similar issues surrounding many PvP players is the main one, to be sure - it doesn't have to be most PvP players displaying an unsavory attitude...there just have to be enough of them floating around to make the root canal look like a preferable alternative.
- I have to admit the outsize avatar image pushing everything over to the right maakes the posts hard to read, and this affects the impact of your argument. The medium is not the WHOLE message, despite what McLuhan said, but it is certainly part of it and you might want to choose a frame for your presentation which makes it easier to read.
Good hunting in finding other players who enjoy PvPing with you.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
It all seems to boil down to one fact, IMHO:
Noobs and Vets should be separated.
Vets don't really want to fight noobs: they are no challenge, they whine, and it just drives them away from PvP completely, resulting in a dead PvP zone.
Noobs don't really want to fight vets: they can't win against them, they can't escape them, all they can really do is hit the hospital button over and over. With the wrong build, skills, and mindset, they can't even form a strategy, and worse -- they have no incentive to. Since their experiences are telling them PvP "isn't fun", why should they want to get good at it?
In addition to vets taking noobs under their wing, what I think would help would be a revamp of the rep system:
Idea: There are seperate PvP zones for various Rep Tiers, and you can't play in a zone too low for your Rep.
It would have to be very difficult to lose Rep, to prevent players from sandbagging for a while via twoboxing and dropping down so they could snipe lower tiers. But it may be necessary to allow players to sometimes drop a tier, for the occaision when a lucky streak pushes you over when you aren't really ready yet.
Sure, you would still see the occaisional vet sniping for low tier players with a new character, but their own success would drive them out of the zone.
In general, players who were interested in PvP, but borderline, could go into the noob zone and probably do all right, facing players similar to themselves: Players on their PvE build, RPers, and those just there for the zone goodies.
Then, as they continued being successful, they could graduate to another tier. Sure, every time you to a new tier, you would get thrashed for awhile, but you could know that you are facing players of the same general skill at both builds and play.
Moreover, a setup like this would open the door for more PvP rewards: with PvP broken into tiers, you don't have to worry so much about someone who has earned an OMGCannon 9000 running around with it repeatedly one-shotting you: they will just level themselves to the next tier and be out of your hair. Hope they picked up some Skillz...
...just an idea...
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Trimmed for brevity, good points and interesting take on the problem. If this were combined with cross server PvP zone instancing (if this were even possible), it might even work, drawing enough possible members. I can imagine even 3 tiers of PvP zones being enough to start.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
It all seems to boil down to one fact, IMHO:
Noobs and Vets should be separated. <snip> ...just an idea... |
There are probably a few dozen unanticipated means of abusing this system which would only hurt the intentions of non-griefing PvP revamp supporters. But I suppose that would be the case with any solution.
All in all, some good suggestions.
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I appreciate the idea, but for as much as it might help to get newbies interested, it brings up a host of other problems. The most notable would be "What if you're a noob who wants to play with the vets?" or vice versa.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
It all seems to boil down to one fact, IMHO:
Noobs and Vets should be separated. Vets don't really want to fight noobs: they are no challenge, they whine, and it just drives them away from PvP completely, resulting in a dead PvP zone. Noobs don't really want to fight vets: they can't win against them, they can't escape them, all they can really do is hit the hospital button over and over. With the wrong build, skills, and mindset, they can't even form a strategy, and worse -- they have no incentive to. Since their experiences are telling them PvP "isn't fun", why should they want to get good at it? In addition to vets taking noobs under their wing, what I think would help would be a revamp of the rep system: Idea: There are seperate PvP zones for various Rep Tiers, and you can't play in a zone too low for your Rep. It would have to be very difficult to lose Rep, to prevent players from sandbagging for a while via twoboxing and dropping down so they could snipe lower tiers. But it may be necessary to allow players to sometimes drop a tier, for the occaision when a lucky streak pushes you over when you aren't really ready yet. Sure, you would still see the occaisional vet sniping for low tier players with a new character, but their own success would drive them out of the zone. In general, players who were interested in PvP, but borderline, could go into the noob zone and probably do all right, facing players similar to themselves: Players on their PvE build, RPers, and those just there for the zone goodies. Then, as they continued being successful, they could graduate to another tier. Sure, every time you to a new tier, you would get thrashed for awhile, but you could know that you are facing players of the same general skill at both builds and play. Moreover, a setup like this would open the door for more PvP rewards: with PvP broken into tiers, you don't have to worry so much about someone who has earned an OMGCannon 9000 running around with it repeatedly one-shotting you: they will just level themselves to the next tier and be out of your hair. Hope they picked up some Skillz... ...just an idea... |
If you're forced into a specific instance of a zone based on your rep, then you're going to mess up any potential SG PVP nights, since you'd be hard pressed to find any large group with all the players at the same level of PVP awesomeness. Also, what would happen with the group is one member, through the course of play managed to have a good night and got bumped to the next highest tier? Or the next lowest? "Sorry, you can't play with us with that character anymore?"
And since PVP rep is character based, all a veteran would need to do to have a chance to wail on newbs would be to use a different character. Even if it's not a PVP specced build, the veteran will have the edge because they would know how the system works better than the newbie.
Finally, what about the value inherent to the fact that some vets DO help newbies learn the ropes? If all you have in a zone is newbs, then it's kind of the blind leading the blind. If the veterans are all separated into their own tier, then they can't pass on their wisdom.
It's an interesting thought, but I believe there's a lot of issues preventing something like this from working.
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
Some good points.
What if there were a few tiered zones, and an additional 'free for all' zone? So long as the noobs are warned when clicking to enter that they can face PvPers of all tiers if they continue, I don't see a problem.
Of course, some will not read the text and then whine, but that is unavoidable.
The 'free for all' zone would be where vets train noobs and SGs go to fight.
The main headscratcher for me is the gal who is 'accidentally' bumped to a higher tier by having one good day. My instinct is to say, "sink or swim, baby" (after all, its no worse a situation than the current one) but there may be a better solution I haven't thought of.
And any vet who makes a new character just to roll newbs is welcome to do so: the idea is that he's going to level himself out of the zone and have to rinse repeat with a new character soon enough.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
So... basically you're proposing to take the tiny existing PVP community, and fragment them into even smaller sub-groups? (And as pointed out, there's nothing stopping a vet from using a second character to bypass the "awesome gate." At best, you end up with small groups of "newbies" in each teir being mauled by experienced PVP players on brand new characters. At worst, you've set up a system that will make the old Mentor Tetris look simple by comparison. ("Hey guys, let's have a PVP night for the SG!" "OK, what tier? I don't have any characters that can do T3 RV." "Oh, crud, I don't have anyone that can do less than T3." "What's RV?" ..... "Oh, to hell with it. Who wants to beat up Romulus?")
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Hence the idea for the 'free for all' PvP zone above your post.|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
So... basically you're proposing to take the tiny existing PVP community, and fragment them into even smaller sub-groups?
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The idea is not to break up the players we already have into smaller subgroups, but to increase the number of players overall. The current system discourages those who are borderline in the first place from sticking with it, and I think having tiers would invite NEW players into the mix who would not otherwise check it out at all.
Heck, probably a lot of players would try it out just to see where they rise to on the tier system. New shiny, and all that.
Sure, they may get mauled by more experienced players on new characters, but at least they won't be getting mauled by more experienced players on their favorite level 50 multibillion inf twinked build with Heavies, Nukes and Shivans.
Might make a difference.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Hmmm...my suggestions... if you want to help beginners with PvP...
Get some serious posters in the PvP forums to begin with.
I see people ask serious questions trying to get into PvP, to get alot of posters giving them some sort of flak. Whether it be..."U noob" to "roll this [insert jk AT powerset combo here]".
Now, I still believe the PvP in this game can be fixed. More than fixed even, made to be great in fact, but untill that time...people who ask questions trying to get a survivable build (whether it be for team or one on one), are only going to get turned off more by the fact that when asking for help, they're not getting any.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Do yourself an the rest of the PvP community a flavor Ares and don't respond to any negative posts or trollers. You'll get a better response and more respect from players.|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
Appreciate it
 |
Trust me, I know a thing or two about trolls.
Great guide by the way and attempt to get people into PvP. While I'm no PvPer I may just transfer one of my Zone farmers to Freedom just to farm some PvPers.
I'm +Reping you for this thread. Wish you the best of luck.
Were you killed? Sure, easily believable. Was it in the parameters you first described? Not a chance.