We Want You to PvP - Beginner's Guide (Freedom)
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 20:51 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Heh, ya, that's what I was thinking. 25 hero stalkers vs 25 villain stalkers...|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Welcome to Going Rogue! Now everybody can play a Stalker.
Except for me on my Bane hunting Stalkers  |
"Ok, I know they're out there somewhere..."
lol
OTOH, if all the said stalkers weren't running both stealth and a stealth IO to softcap stealth then it'd be a different ball game altogether with a few secondaries. /Dark, /Nin, /SR and /Wp all have +perception. Couple that with Tactics and a +perception proc and those secondaries will be able to see other stalkers running around. If all the stalkers were at stealth cap then you'd have to be within 10ft to see the stalkers when you're at perception cap.
Most likely it'd be a waiting game till you get someone to be the bait and draw out the rest while you have everyone else waiting to pounce on any of them that come out of hide.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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I think it's perfectly reasonable to post this here. Posting it in the PvP forum would be preaching to the choir.|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
First, this is the best place for this topic. It is directed at non-pvpers not people that have spent ample amount of time in PvP. Therefore this would be out of place in the PvP section because no one from outside of PvP will read it.
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The difficulty ratings you give the different ATs are kind of confusing. I'm not sure what the number means. You list Stalkers at 1/5, Defenders at -4/5, and everything else at 2/5 or 3/5. Is the -4/5 for Defenders an error? Should it really be 4/5?
If that's the case, then you seem to be implying that Stalkers are easy to PvP with, and Defenders are very hard. Which makes sense. I can't see how Defenders could possibly survive solo.
I want to like PvP, but when I've tried it it's been very dissatisfying (it's been a very long time I have to admit). People would fly and jump around never engaging unless they had numerical superiority, in which case the fight was over in seconds. The other annoying thing was getting teleported by a gang of Stalkers into caltrops and immediately assassinated. In general, being one-shotted or two-shotted is not fun. Getting backstabbed like that a few times pretty much turns you off of PvP in less than 10 minutes flat.
So, my questions are: is PvP any different now? Is it a total waste of time even trying to play controllers and defenders? Do people PvP on teams in a coherent and coordinated fashion, or is everyone always boinking around like crazy? Is PvP still dominated by Stalkers trying to backstab everyone in the zone?
At the other end of the spectrum was Scrapper vs. Tanker: the scrapper couldn't do enough damage to hurt my tanker, and the scrapper never stood still long enough to take any damage from the tanker. It was a pointless stalemate.
My desire for PvP is that it should be a big epic fight, like a fight with an AV or those fights in the comics and the movies. The reality of PvP was nothing like that. It seemed artificial and gimmicky, with everyone constantly running away (or, just as annoying, having their movement suppressed), or getting ganked. There was no enjoyable middle ground.
What would be the best way for someone with these particular hot buttons to approach PvP these days? That is, what kind of character would be best to try, and under what conditions?
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I envision someone with Phase Shift being the sacrificial cow. He decloaks and draws attention, and suddenly there's a cascade of Assassin Strikes! It would be hilarious to see.
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Originally Posted by Boomie
lol
OTOH, if all the said stalkers weren't running both stealth and a stealth IO to softcap stealth then it'd be a different ball game altogether with a few secondaries. /Dark, /Nin, /SR and /Wp all have +perception. Couple that with Tactics and a +perception proc and those secondaries will be able to see other stalkers running around. If all the stalkers were at stealth cap then you'd have to be within 10ft to see the stalkers when you're at perception cap. Most likely it'd be a waiting game till you get someone to be the bait and draw out the rest while you have everyone else waiting to pounce on any of them that come out of hide. |
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I've done something similar with Pff <.<|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I envision someone with Phase Shift being the sacrificial cow. He decloaks and draws attention, and suddenly there's a cascade of Assassin Strikes! It would be hilarious to see.
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Sadly, though, AS doesn't bring a stalker out of hide unless it connects. With a enemy phased it never connects therefore no coming out of hide. You could have a stalker say turn off a layer or two of stealth to make it look less inconspicous and stand in the middle of a sizeable darkly colored caltrop patch. When all the stalkers start to swarm and hop on the patch they'll get pulled out of hide and be slowed unless they turn on SS. Bonus points for doing this in the pools near atlas to prevent them from running away since they can't jump.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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sorry for the late reply|
Originally Posted by Westley
*looks at the format*
Is this a poem or something? |
not a poem, just too lazy for punctuation
thin columns that aren't too long also tend not to receive the FRAT response
EDIT:
thanks for the responses guys
I'll give it a shot soon.
I'd love to PvP in this game, but generally don't for many of the same reasons others have:
1) I don't want to change my powers just so I can be good at PvP. I have a Purple Out Peacebringer with all available Accolades, and I'm a terror in PvE. Seems like I'd at least do decent in PvP, but I don't have SS, SJ, or a Phase Power, so... I can't catch most foes, and then I usually get held and wittled down when I run out of BFs. lrn2PvP, then? That brings up my second point
2) I dunno, I just generally don't like that the PvP game feels so radically different than the PvE game. PvE=massive mobs, massive destruction, feelings of power. PvP=so much bouncing and darting around, retreating. Nothing wrong with that, I guess... but I'd prefer that fighting another Player feel like fighting an EB, not being spiked and faceplanted in less than 15 seconds. I know, some comic book characters fight that way (Spider Man), but in CoH PvP it seems that just about all do. Thors vs Hulks, Supes vs. Doomsdays - these seem rare.
No point in trying to tell me where I'm wrong. I've given it lots of tries and these are the impressions I've come away with. I probably will try again at some point. Maybe it'll be different next time... (heh yeah right 
)
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Actually, I took my L43 Tank into Recluse's Victory (for the first time) and was invited to spar by a Brute. I treid bouncing around, but his ranged Dark epic power bypassed most of my defenses, and not having a ranged attack myself, I was at a serious disadvantage. Slugging in close with him was pointless, as his Willpower was sufficiently strong that I couldn't do any damage to him while his Super Strength had me using Unstoppable in a matter of three seconds or so. Even then, his damage output was sufficient to virtually ignore the Unstoppable boost.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
I'd love to PvP in this game, but generally don't for many of the same reasons others have:
1) I don't want to change my powers just so I can be good at PvP. I have a Purple Out Peacebringer with all available Accolades, and I'm a terror in PvE. Seems like I'd at least do decent in PvP, but I don't have SS, SJ, or a Phase Power, so... I can't catch most foes, and then I usually get held and wittled down when I run out of BFs. lrn2PvP, then? That brings up my second point 2) I dunno, I just generally don't like that the PvP game feels so radically different than the PvE game. PvE=massive mobs, massive destruction, feelings of power. PvP=so much bouncing and darting around, retreating. Nothing wrong with that, I guess... but I'd prefer that fighting another Player feel like fighting an EB, not being spiked and faceplanted in less than 15 seconds. I know, some comic book characters fight that way (Spider Man), but in CoH PvP it seems that just about all do. Thors vs Hulks, Supes vs. Doomsdays - these seem rare. No point in trying to tell me where I'm wrong. I've given it lots of tries and these are the impressions I've come away with. I probably will try again at some point. Maybe it'll be different next time... (heh yeah right ) |
Still, better than being killed with no ability to fight back, as is the case with most Stalkers. Notably, after fighting the Brute, I chatted for a moment and as I went to leave, I was Assassin Struck, held in a blob of some kind (Mako, I imagine), placated and struck again. Never had a chance to fight back, and was dead in 2 hits, even WITH all my armors running.
Nope, PvP in CoH doesn't impress me at all.
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If you use your second build, you might only need to swap out a couple of powers to make yourself more PvP suitable.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
I don't want to change my powers just so I can be good at PvP. I have a Purple Out Peacebringer with all available Accolades, and I'm a terror in PvE. Seems like I'd at least do decent in PvP, but I don't have SS, SJ, or a Phase Power, so... I can't catch most foes, and then I usually get held and wittled down when I run out of BFs.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I had a vision today...
You wander into Siren's Call and do a /whoall, and are delighted to find a list of 50 players in the zone! Unfortunately they're ALL Stalkers, and the zone appears entirely empty... How on earth would this play out? No one could see anyone else, so no fighting would be happening. |
This... is an argument for making Dark Astoria a PvP zone.
To the OP:
I've tried PvP, on several characters. Sadly, I'm not quite 'good' enough (either with builds or reflexes) to hang with the big dogs, and I get soundly whupped back under the porch with the CoH/V equivalent of a very LARGE rolled-up newspaper.
That said, I do enjoy ARENA PvP, not because I can change the rules and 'own' anyone (I still don't) but that I get to pick my opponents and my allies. It's more ... sporting... in my opinion, even if I lose.
You say that the trash-talkers are a minority. The problem is, a few hooligans WILL leave an impression, as opposed to a large group of folks who are civil.
They certainly left an impression on me - when that's all I heard in SC and RV, I stopped going there. When MArch resulted in a ton of farm spam in the lowbie zones? I quit playing entirely.
THAT is the impact that people being vocal and annoying will have on people who don't care for vocal and annoying.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
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Yeah, considered that, but having to make another build specifically for PvP (with powers I'd probably never pick otherwise) kinda proves my 1st point. And it'd do nothing for my 2nd - the PvP game is simply very different than the PvE game.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If you use your second build, you might only need to swap out a couple of powers to make yourself more PvP suitable.
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What I'd like: have the same toon, same build, go into a PvP area and have it feel roughly the same as if I was involved in an PvE fight with an EB. Perhaps a bit more moving around but not this bunny hopping (course, I wouldn't mind EBs AI being a bit more robust) but more like mighty warriors clashing. I dunno, movement and phasing has too much effect in PvP, but I don't know how to lessen it.
I don't have any answers, but I know what I do and don't like *shrug*
Actually, your PB shouldn't be too hard to survive on. First off, don't worry about BF's now. They're largely useless. Depending on what form you're in, greens and oranges will better suit you. Aside from that, practice.
And Ultimo, against an Invuln tank, a stalker wouldn't kill him in 2 hits. Even base tanker HP is more than what two AS can do to a squishy with little resists. Against a tankers resistances, you'd need considerably more.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Well, I was airborne by the time the AS hit, so perhaps I took some damage from the fall (though I wouldn't think it was much). Either way, I'm just reporting what happened.
With base squishie resistances, BU+AS does about 800 damage. If they were to somehow get 2 off during a single Build Up period (not unheard of, but VERY hard to do as I have yet to actually see it), you'd only be looking at 1600. With your armors running, closer to 1200. You would have had to have been AS'd in mid-air, -fly'd, fell far enough to take over 600 damage, placated, and AS'd again within a ten second period.
In other words, you are mistaken.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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The PB Build I'm discussing is Human-Only |
Originally Posted by Reiraku
Actually, your PB shouldn't be too hard to survive on. First off, don't worry about BF's now. They're largely useless. Depending on what form you're in, greens and oranges will better suit you. Aside from that, practice.
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And before any self-gimp comments, at level 50 my Human Only is more potent than Tri-Form in the PvE environment, esp. when soloing. My Alt-Build is Tri-Form and I've compared numerous times vs. the maps/missions.Of course, I could use Tri-From when PvPing (and have, with some success), but we're back to square one again. My Tri-Form really is just a 'let's-see-what-this-can-do' thing. My concept is Human Only. Her story is human only. And in PvE she's very powerful, but in PvP she struggles. With the shields and heals, she can survive surprizing long in PvP, but it's that phasing and bouncing around the enemy does that does her in. Just when I'm about to be victorious.. Phase Shift, Bound Away... Tactics that work in PvP, but again, so different from the PvE game, it really would take a second build, with these tactics in mind, to successfully PvP...
And it's just not really worth it
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What'd be *really* interesting is for one side to have a few VEATs. For some unknown reason, VEATs get a higher perception cap than everyone else. At their cap, they can actually see stalkers at a hundred feet or so, IIRC. They do get an additional tactics in their secondary, too, so it might even be possible for them to self-cap - but if not, just have two of em run around together escorted by their stalkers. Then they can pop the enemy stalkers out of hide with ranged attacks and open them up to being AS'd.|
Originally Posted by Boomie
OTOH, if all the said stalkers weren't running both stealth and a stealth IO to softcap stealth then it'd be a different ball game altogether with a few secondaries. /Dark, /Nin, /SR and /Wp all have +perception. Couple that with Tactics and a +perception proc and those secondaries will be able to see other stalkers running around. If all the stalkers were at stealth cap then you'd have to be within 10ft to see the stalkers when you're at perception cap.
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That'd be pretty funny, actually - at the moment, the higher VEAT per cap is mostly a curiosity since they can only fight stalkers in warburg, but come GR, there'll be stalkers everywhere! I imagine a lot of stalkers will be highly confused the first few times they get popped out of hide at 100 feet by a bullet or psi blast.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
My biggest problem with PVP is the Gap, starting at PVP is like being a Six year old and trying to fight a Samurai. The gap is too large, you really got to take so much lossing before you can start winning. The only PVP zone I ever enjoyed was Recluse's Victory and that because there is so much to do in there that PVE. It is also aimed at a better goal set in my mind. I took my 50 in Walberg [to work on getting a Missle] and got two shoted. Of course part of that is because of the stupid scaling of the IO I have, which is another problem for PVP, unless you are right in the level zone for a PVP Zone it cause all sorts of havoc for your Slots. I know there are Duel IOs and Two Builds but IO one Build is expensive enough in time and Inf, let alone two.
Doom/Batman in 2012
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
I appreciate this post. I've been browsing the PvP section for the past few weeks looking for various information. This post sums up some of the information I was seeking.
I tried PvPing a month or so ago and didn't like it. Here are a few reasons why:
My main toons are scrappers and defenders. Defenders, I have found in my limited play are generally useless and my scrappers are mostly SR. Both of which made my experience both frustrating and boring.
I am also what I would like to call a "rewards based" player. That is I generally only engage in game activity that will produce desired rewards for me (even if it is boring i.e. My love for farming). In this case it would be PvP IO's. The change in PvP IO drop rates was a huge turn off, and as I don't consider trash talking and bragging rights as a reward; I haven't PvP'd in a month or so.
But again; thanks for the post!
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Well, All I can tell you is what happened. I didn't analyze it. I was airborne, but I imagined he had simply started the AS as I was taking off and it just landed once I was in the air. However, he was close enough to hit me with the hold thing as I landed, so I don't know. I also don't know how much damage I took from the fall, or if I was at full health after sparring with the Brute (I think I was, but I'm not sure).|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
With base squishie resistances, BU+AS does about 800 damage. If they were to somehow get 2 off during a single Build Up period (not unheard of, but VERY hard to do as I have yet to actually see it), you'd only be looking at 1600. With your armors running, closer to 1200. You would have had to have been AS'd in mid-air, -fly'd, fell far enough to take over 600 damage, placated, and AS'd again within a ten second period.
In other words, you are mistaken. |
You can't tell me it didn't happen, I was there.
One more thing. If you guys fail at PvP the first time, it is just a learning experience. I do fine with all of my toons, 10/15 are 100% SO's. More advanced PvP makes IOs important but at the bare bones zone bob and weave, strategy can be useful. Be opportunistic and cunning.
Thanks Ares.
This might just get me to try PvP again.
+1 rep to you.
We don' need no stinkin' signatures!
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Appreciate it |
Originally Posted by Suspicious_Pkg
Thanks Ares.
This might just get me to try PvP again. +1 rep to you. |
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Well, you'd have to have been at least half dead (if not more) to die from a lone stalker using only those three attacks on you, which means you weren't killed by a stalker in two hits without being able to do anything. Not to mention the amount of time it takes to set up a second AS after the first is definitely enough time to pop a heal.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Well, All I can tell you is what happened. I didn't analyze it. I was airborne, but I imagined he had simply started the AS as I was taking off and it just landed once I was in the air. However, he was close enough to hit me with the hold thing as I landed, so I don't know. I also don't know how much damage I took from the fall, or if I was at full health after sparring with the Brute (I think I was, but I'm not sure).
You can't tell me it didn't happen, I was there. |
Were you killed? Sure, easily believable. Was it in the parameters you first described? Not a chance.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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That was my experience in RV. I decided to pop in one day just for kicks. There was a small group of heroes there (on Victory server) fighting a skirmish with a slightly larger group of villains. I was immediately invited into the hero group and no one smacktalked me or mocked me or whatever. However, I was instantly killed so many times that it just got old. I wasn't upset about it since there's no real penalty for it (I think you lose some PvP ranking/points? But I don't care about that) but there was just some massive learning curve that I couldn't muster the enthusiasm to deal with. This was on a defender and, yeah, I also had Fly |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
EDIT 2: RV had quite a lot of PvP action going on, so I flew out anf joined in. I have to say, the smacktalk was minimal. Quite friendly, actually.
However, the gameplay was horribly boring. I would fly out, try to get some attacks in on various SJers zipping around, then get held, drop from the sky and die fairly shortly after that. |
That'd be quite interesting if everyone were stalkers in a zone. The hard part will be to bring one out of hide and It would only be hard if they were working together. The easier part is to take one down once you flush it out. An Earth/Ta troller would make every single one of the opposing stalkers angry since they'd never be able to get near it without being brought out of stealth. I'd say a blaster + Earth/Ta would be able to wipe out alot of stalkers that day.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE