We Want You to PvP - Beginner's Guide (Freedom)
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 20:51 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Nice write up. Kudos.
This is like the Pocket D of the forums - anyone can hang out here as long as it's game related. So for those that want to belittle and gripe about posting PvP stuff here, just don't. It is relevant to this section since it is directed at encouraging PvP to all players.
Just to address a few issues.
I didn't write about PBs because I personally have little experience with them other than the occasional flying IO'd pvp from hell that nothing can drop from the sky without being killed.
I gave melee toons and easy score because the melee toons I do player rarely die and have high kill ratio.
Some people would completely and utterly disagree that it is easy to play a stalker, I feel that stalkers are an easy startup toon with low PvP.
I find that defenders are generally easy targets and lack a decent inherent which is the reason for the harsh score.
But yeah in the end, the very details of the guide will depend on playstyle.
A for effort. I understand your mentality and message but you should really do more research.
Areas to work on...
1. Provide objective views and accurate information.
2. Include all the changes to PvP since I13.
3. Make the community aware that Mid's does not provide accurate information for PvP.
4. Let the community know that PvP receives the least amount of Dev attention, care and support.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
|
Quote:
I tried to be as objective as I could but it is literally impossible to be 100% objective when trying to give people a feel for how PvP actually goes. Also, this is a very bare bones guide meant to get players to try PvP with some knowledge instead of bring their favorite fire/kin into the zone expecting to farm groups of vills and getting owned lol.
|
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
A for effort. I understand your mentality and message but you should really do more research.
Areas to work on... 1. Provide objective views and accurate information. 2. Include all the changes to PvP since I13. 3. Make the community aware that Mid's does not provide accurate information for PvP. 4. Let the community know that PvP receives the least amount of Dev attention, care and support. |
Quote:
When you make such a subjective post at least tag "YMMV" at the end of it. This is meant to be a guide and you don't want to be handing biased information to new comers.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
All melee should rank 5/5 for difficulty. You'll really be struggling to kill anything.
|
You may find that based on your experience but off my experience my melee characters struggle far less than my ranged chars to survive in zone. Anything outside of a duel, I find that ranged chars are at a serious disadvantage as they are bait for any stalker or any scrapper who decides to suprise them and AS/Crit them with such a small amount of Hit Points.
And of course YMMV
Quote:
Same. My main toon is a scrapper and his rep is far higher than any of my toons and he dies far less.
|
Originally Posted by CryoTech
When you make such a subjective post at least tag "YMMV" at the end of it. This is meant to be a guide and you don't want to be handing biased information to new comers.
You may find that based on your experience but off my experience my melee characters struggle far less than my ranged chars to survive in zone. Anything outside of a duel, I find that ranged chars are at a serious disadvantage as they are bait for any stalker or any scrapper who decides to suprise them and AS/Crit them with such a small amount of Hit Points. And of course YMMV |
Quote:
The reason PvP receives the least amount of Dev support is because the least amount of members in the community participate in it.|
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
.
4. Let the community know that PvP receives the least amount of Dev attention, care and support. |
The same thing happens to CoV PvE.
To: Ares Supreme
I'm not particularly interested in PvP. I tried it in I4 and didn't care for it. I tried it in I6 and didn't care for it.
While your post has useful information it doesn't do anything to tempt me into trying PvP again.
Quote:
Can you show me the numbers?
|
Originally Posted by DMystic
The reason PvP receives the least amount of Dev support is because the least amount of members in the community participate in it.
The same thing happens to CoV PvE. To: Ares Supreme I'm not particularly interested in PvP. I tried it in I4 and didn't care for it. I tried it in I6 and didn't care for it. While your post has useful information it doesn't do anything to tempt me into trying PvP again. |
Quote:
Common knowledge. Unless there are 20 people in PvE right now also...
|
Originally Posted by Glacier_Peak
Can you show me the numbers?
|
Great work Ares.
A few errors I noticed when reading, (Corps and Doms difficulties are not rated, and we all know how hard they are to play hehe) but the rest is pretty smooth.
Quote:
O I mustve forget them too lol, but thanks! Gonna fix it now.
|
Originally Posted by Glacier_Peak
Great work Ares.
A few errors I noticed when reading, (Corps and Doms difficulties are not rated, and we all know how hard they are to play hehe) but the rest is pretty smooth. |
Thanks for the post.
I dont understand the rage against it being here. I would not of read it in the PvP section.
Your examples though tend to show me why dont bother much with PvP. All the scrappers are /regen to be viable, the tankers all /ss etc.
This may not be what you meant, but my impression of it 
But I'm not going to make a toon purely for PvP and level it up just to try out PvP. And dont see much point bringing in a toon to be slaughtered.
I do a little bit of arena, and rarely bloody bay if I see someone on the way as I'm getting shivans, but see them as far less optimised setting.
/2 inf
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
Quote:
Actually you noted something really interesting. All the scrappers are pretty much regen as you will find and brute/tanks SS unfortunately.This is a problem that is discussed daily in PvP. There are more than just these builds but the others generally require a bit more skill. These days a blaster is a blaster and a stalker is a stalker, regardless of your makeup you will probbably do fine in casual pvp with either of those. So if you ever decided to try it out bring a blaster you have sitting around if you have one, or a buffer of sorts just to aid your teammates.
|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Thanks for the post.
I dont understand the rage against it being here. I would not of read it in the PvP section. Your examples though tend to show me why dont bother much with PvP. All the scrappers are /regen to be viable, the tankers all /ss etc. This may not be what you meant, but my impression of it But I'm not going to make a toon purely for PvP and level it up just to try out PvP. And dont see much point bringing in a toon to be slaughtered. I do a little bit of arena, and rarely bloody bay if I see someone on the way as I'm getting shivans, but see them as far less optimised setting. /2 inf |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Two things.
One, a nitpick, any time a blaster tries to kite me on a melee character, I know I'm going to win the fight, or at least survive it. Why? It tells me they skipped their melee attacks, and are therefore doing diddly squat for damage. Blappers hit like a truck. Blasters tickle like a kitten. |
This is no longer the case. Issue 13 reduced the damage the Blaster melee attacks do and increased most of their ranged attacks. It's ironic that the devs implemented a broken movement suppression system to punish kiting, but then encouraged it by making those changes.
Quote:
While this is true *Now* it was not true before the pvp changes. Back then a considerable portion of the community was active in pvp and pvp events.
|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
Common knowledge. Unless there are 20 people in PvE right now also...
|
Even back then, when PvP had a sizeable community there were still considerably less people participating in it than thoes that PvE'd Hero or Villain side.
PvP has always been a minority of the playerbase.
Quote:
Here are some reasons why I *won't* PvP. Ever.|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
Here are a few reason why you SHOULD PvP:
-PvP can be fun and rewarding. You reach 50 and you have few option that generally fall between doings Tfs or farming. PvPing adds and entire new spectrum to the game and will revolutionize the way you play your toons and think about the game in general. -You can gain IOs unique to PvP combat only. The IOs are effective in PvE but in PvP can even rival purple enhacements. They are different because they have at least 10 bonuses on each set as opposed to the usual 5. This effect only works in PvP but still offers a player a new exciting opportunity. -The daily grind can become boring at times, PvP allows you to experience the game in a whole new way which doesn't rely heavily on content or NPCs. Your foes are more challenging and always thinking of new ways to defeat you. |
PvP can be fun and rewarding, against someone you know with a good sense of humor and fair play. However, you are far more likely to encounter a massive team of immature jerkweeds who will either mass gank you the instant they see you or, more likely, wait until you are clearly distracted. Then mass gank you. And then crow about how "leet and uber" they are, and what a loser you are. And then, in most games, your corpse will be sexually defiled.
You can gain rewards that are "Unique to PvP." And that are quite often only of any use whatsoever in PvP. If you don't live in a PvP zone, these amazing, unique rewards should be sold immediately whenever it is possible to do so. In my case, even the tiny chance of finding an IO that could sell for over a billion inf is *NOT* sufficient incentive to go into a PVP area, and the idea that I'd go into a PVP zone for *temp powers* is laughable.
I hate PVP in any game. In COH, it's a bad idea, poorly implemented, and gets worse every time they try to "fix" it. My *only* hope for PVP is that when they attempt to restore Base Raiding (which they will, eventually, some manager somewhere will insist that they NEED PVP to "stay competitive") that anything PVP related is optional, and can be disabled and completely ignored by any player that wants nothing to do with it.
I used to stray into PvP from time to time, often to have my own head handed to me fairly fast, but sometimes to claim a kill or two.
Since I13, less so. Union side btw.
I feel somewhat offended you left out Claws/Ninjitsu on stalkers 
Claws is one of the two sets which has ranged attacks in it. And focus is one of the nicer ones, in my opinion anyhow.
Stalkers aren't as easy as they used to be. Reason? Every fool and his dog has some form of + perception these days.
One day, I'll get that stealth IO. Rikti Drones will die, and I might stray back to see if anyone is lurking
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Curious about something: For the people with bad experiences with zone PvP, which zone are you in (or which zone were you in at the point this experience happened)?
Quote:
I have almost no experience with PvP in this game. I've gone into Bloody Bay once shortly after I-13 went live, at the insistence of one of the few people on my global friends list. (They wanted Shivans, they wanted company, and they were certain I would enjoy the experience.) After getting repeatedly mauled at one meteor by a Boss Shivan that refused to die (largely due to the fact that PVP runs under almost entirely different rules, but *only* for players) we finally managed to get everything, and got the temp powers. My friend: "While we're here, let's look around for some other players." Me: Activates Pocket D teleport. Afterwords I told them, basicaly, that having done it once I was never going to do it again. The whole time we were there, I was nervous and jumpy, and otherwise experiencing epic levels of "not having fun." The fact that the NPCs basically cheat didn't help, since as far as I know they don't use the same screwed up rules as players in PVP zones.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Curious about something: For the people with bad experiences with zone PvP, which zone are you in (or which zone were you in at the point this experience happened)?
|
As for other games, I *have* tried actual PVP. I find that it is a game mode that tends to concentrate all the biggest jerkweeds in a game into one place at the same time. Part of it is the same problem as driving on a freeway - the vast majority of drivers are not psychotic lunatics. However, after spending an hour on the freeway, I can almost guarantee that you *will* have noticed any of the lunatics near you, and they *will* be what you remember about the drive. Likewise, I'm sure that intelligent, well-spoken and polite people play PVP. I *do not* remember ever encountering such a person in any of my few attempts at PVP.
Do immature, trash-talking moronic jerkweeds exist in the PVE game? Yes. And I make every effort to have nothing to do with them. I'm certainly not going to volunteer to go into a part of the game that is almost certain to be infested with them.
Ares, while I appreciate your sentiment and wish you the best of luck in snagging enough people for some meaningful PvP, I think you're fighting for a lost cause. You put a lot of effort into this, and I commend you for it, but most of your effort is done behind an assumption - PvP is good, here's how to engage in it. There are certain people, and from what I've seen quite a few of them, who simply don't enjoy PvP, can't get past the notion that it's a good thing to do, and as such they simply never get to the explanation of how to do it. It's like saying "If you want to wrestle alligators, here's what you need:" People are just going to go "But I don't WANT to wrestle alligators!" and move on.
See, I don't think your post belongs in the Freedom or PvP forums. I think it belongs in Player Guides, because, from what I saw of it (OK, I skimmed A LOT), you have a lot of useful info tied behind a premise a lot of people are going to skip over unless they're specifically looking for it.
You're never going to get meaningful zone PvP in City of Heroes because you'll never budge people out of their servers even if you DID get them to PvP. And even if you did get them to PvP AND budged them from their servers, you're never going to get the kind of player density that makes PvP meaningful. I don't buy into the "PvPers are jerks" argument, but I do know that any player versus player encounter where people can't FIND each other and spend the majority of their time looking for each other and stalking for each other is not worth playing. It's like Half-Life at Boot Camp with four people. Anyone who knows what I'm talking about will understand. It's just not fun.
That, and not everyone likes a competitive environment or wants to look at the game in a new way. Recently, I dropped my difficulty to -1 specifically because I DON'T like competitive, difficult games. I'd much rather have relatively easy, somewhat assured victories than to struggle against every opponent. As I mentioned recently, the only reason I delve into the mechanics of the game at all is so I'll know how to avoid dealing with them. That's not a good way to build for PvP, not by a longshot.
In essence, I appreciate your effort, but I'd advise you to just clone it over to Player Guides and get it included in the Guide to Guides. That way it won't get purged and it'll still serve people.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
No doubt there a few people in PvP that are classified as "moronic jerkweeds" but that is a small population and most all of them are on my ignore list. Do I let them ruin my play experience? HELL NO! I've met some really cool people in pvp you will fiind that at time you can sit in a group of vills on a hero and not PvP at all but rather chat about the daily grind. I get more peeved going into Atlas Park and hearing the insanity thrown around there. |
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
I have almost no experience with PvP in this game. I've gone into Bloody Bay once shortly after I-13 went live, at the insistence of one of the few people on my global friends list. (They wanted Shivans, they wanted company, and they were certain I would enjoy the experience.) After getting repeatedly mauled at one meteor by a Boss Shivan that refused to die (largely due to the fact that PVP runs under almost entirely different rules, but *only* for players) we finally managed to get everything, and got the temp powers. My friend: "While we're here, let's look around for some other players." Me: Activates Pocket D teleport. Afterwords I told them, basicaly, that having done it once I was never going to do it again. The whole time we were there, I was nervous and jumpy, and otherwise experiencing epic levels of "not having fun." The fact that the NPCs basically cheat didn't help, since as far as I know they don't use the same screwed up rules as players in PVP zones.
As for other games, I *have* tried actual PVP. I find that it is a game mode that tends to concentrate all the biggest jerkweeds in a game into one place at the same time. Part of it is the same problem as driving on a freeway - the vast majority of drivers are not psychotic lunatics. However, after spending an hour on the freeway, I can almost guarantee that you *will* have noticed any of the lunatics near you, and they *will* be what you remember about the drive. Likewise, I'm sure that intelligent, well-spoken and polite people play PVP. I *do not* remember ever encountering such a person in any of my few attempts at PVP. Do immature, trash-talking moronic jerkweeds exist in the PVE game? Yes. And I make every effort to have nothing to do with them. I'm certainly not going to volunteer to go into a part of the game that is almost certain to be infested with them. |
Still I understand where you are coming from. People gloating about kills and going off about nonsense can get a bit old, but in the end those people are a minority and are easily quieted with the ignore button. My personal favorite way of quieting a loud mouth is as follows...
There is a dominator that comes into Siren's Call every so often. The first thing he does is bash all of us and calls us lousy pvpers and says the real pvpers are in arena and that he can beat every single one of us in arena. Mind you this alone just says the dude is insane, he just gave an open challenge to the entire zone. Me being the OP scrapper that I am, I figured, ok I will set up an arena match and surely enough the dom stood no chance and I haven't heard him speak since.
I have been into PvP zones several times through out my playtime here at CoX. I have been on gank teams. group gank teams. solo. duo. small group teams. And no matter what... I hated broadcast chat. so I turned it off. Only to find out I hated team chat as well. So I turned that off. Well whats the damn point if I hate what is said in there?
I have killed some people in PvP. Woopty Doo. It doesnt feel like Street Fighter Champion Edition II.
I have been to Bloody Bay... Mostly to get Shivans... but HATE getting ganked in there. What the hell people? I would rather pay 100,000 and just buy shivans on the market than deal with the STRESS of getting them in a PvP zone.
(badges)
I have been to Sirens Call... Been there done that... Its just not my cup of tea. Plus all the stalker gank fest is just blah.
Now understand I am talking about Virtue server. Then I went to Freedom and OMG WTH is that crap? Sirens Call on Freedom server is a really really bad Stalker gank fest. I dont even understand why ANYONE bothers on that server.
I have been to warburg for badges mostly and nukes. I HATE HATE HATE those Arachnoid things. And I dont honestly care for the people who camp just to ruin your nuke getting abilities.
I have been to RV. While I was in RV this one time some guy kept going on and on how he thought I should get ***ed in real life. So I put him on ignore. I sent MANY reports to the NCSoft people. and that was pretty much it.
I have probably been in PvP zones prior to that maybe 2 or 3 times a month. but, yanno. I just dont go in there at all anymore.. Unless for a day job badge.
I thought about farming recipes in a PvP zone, but it turns out one of my friends just gave me the ones I wanted. So never need to go in there.
I wish you luck in trying to get more people to come in those zones so you can farm recipes. I just think you might have gotten a better responce had you put this in the FREEDOM section of the forums.
Quote:
Thanks for taking the time to read/skim. Part of me felt from the beginning that maybe it was a lost cause but I still felt the need to do it. Just the fact that a few people read over it is enough for me.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Ares, while I appreciate your sentiment and wish you the best of luck in snagging enough people for some meaningful PvP, I think you're fighting for a lost cause. You put a lot of effort into this, and I commend you for it, but most of your effort is done behind an assumption - PvP is good, here's how to engage in it. There are certain people, and from what I've seen quite a few of them, who simply don't enjoy PvP, can't get past the notion that it's a good thing to do, and as such they simply never get to the explanation of how to do it. It's like saying "If you want to wrestle alligators, here's what you need:" People are just going to go "But I don't WANT to wrestle alligators!" and move on.
See, I don't think your post belongs in the Freedom or PvP forums. I think it belongs in Player Guides, because, from what I saw of it (OK, I skimmed A LOT), you have a lot of useful info tied behind a premise a lot of people are going to skip over unless they're specifically looking for it. You're never going to get meaningful zone PvP in City of Heroes because you'll never budge people out of their servers even if you DID get them to PvP. And even if you did get them to PvP AND budged them from their servers, you're never going to get the kind of player density that makes PvP meaningful. I don't buy into the "PvPers are jerks" argument, but I do know that any player versus player encounter where people can't FIND each other and spend the majority of their time looking for each other and stalking for each other is not worth playing. It's like Half-Life at Boot Camp with four people. Anyone who knows what I'm talking about will understand. It's just not fun. That, and not everyone likes a competitive environment or wants to look at the game in a new way. Recently, I dropped my difficulty to -1 specifically because I DON'T like competitive, difficult games. I'd much rather have relatively easy, somewhat assured victories than to struggle against every opponent. As I mentioned recently, the only reason I delve into the mechanics of the game at all is so I'll know how to avoid dealing with them. That's not a good way to build for PvP, not by a longshot. In essence, I appreciate your effort, but I'd advise you to just clone it over to Player Guides and get it included in the Guide to Guides. That way it won't get purged and it'll still serve people. |
Yeah, thanks for writing the guide.
I guess it's just more playerstyle for the difficulties. Having spend close to 3 years just Emping, it was rough switching to Blasters/Corruptors and getting used to those.
Melee ATs in general are easier to play, especially if you're on an Ice Tanker or somesuch. So many hit points, decent damage and you can get Webnades in your Epic pools.
I hope you get more people to PvP. I find zone PvP quite unfun now with all the DR/Travel Suppression/Enjoyment Suppression but Arena is still enjoyable every now and then.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes