Am I the ONLY one...
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 18:04 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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To note: nothing has ever been able to affect the width of a cone's arc in the history of the game. Even back when we had cone range enhancements, all those did was boost the cone range, leaving the arc as it was. But as you note, a higher cone range does mean more area, and it does mean a wider are of effect by virtue of the the arc widening the farther away it moves from the player.|
Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem
Boost Range does boost the area covered by a cone, just by virtue of increasing its range - the degree of the arc stays the same, but as the cone is pushed further out from you, the furthest end of it has a wider spread - that, plus the additional range, makes it cover a much larger area than usual.
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It's kind of a problem that Boost Range doesn't affect PBAoE powers, though. That way, it seriously favours cone-heavy Blasters like Assault Rifle (like THAT needed more AoE).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's probably because Equilibrium (and its sequel, but what is the ever) is the only movie which actually has characters do something with their pistols above just shooting them from a stationary or running position. The science behind the movie is total crap, of course, but so what? It's not about science, it's about people shooting each other dead and looking cool doing it
 I did a little look at other games and movies which featured dual pistols, and I have to say that, yes, all of them focus mostly on just shooting the things Lara Croft style. Devil May Cry has a few interesting attacks with them, but for the most part, it' still just shooting guns. Oniblade has those super-awesome gublades which are a sort of double-barelled revolver with a huge blade in the middle, but the few pistol attacks are essentially shoot, shoot faster, shoot exploding bullets, shoot bullets in a cone, shoot bullets that ricochet, all done from the same standing pose. Advent Rising has some of gaming's most impressive guns which, combined with the game's system of acrobatics, end up being used on the move in a BIG way, yet still in what is essentially a point-and-shoot way. Still, shooting at your enemies while corkscrewing through the air is cooler than most other applications. Max Payne has his trusty dual Beretas, but this is probably the worst incarnation of dual handguns I've seen, because it doesn't look good and doesn't work with Max's style of dives and slow motion. On the other hand, the special reload mechanic in Max Payne 2's bullet mode makes them well worth it. Giant paragraph over and to recap - most movies and games that have characters use dual pistols have them do, essentially, one thing with them - point and shoot. If you're going to make a full powerset with at least 7 attacks, you're going to need something more than just that. Enter Equilibrium, and whether or not the movie was good, the gunplay was creative. |
so.... your saying that COH's DP are in fact, in the minority. Personally, i would be fine with "point, shoot" as i tend to be more interested in the character than the animation.
ALso, this isnt a suggestion, because that would be stupid. Any alternate animations they do would have to match the animation times of the original. So a plain shoot gun animation would most likely have to be stretched out to do that. Not to mention that the devs would have to do a metric buttload of new animations to even accomplish this. run and shoot, fall and shoot, fly an shoot.... etc. So im not making a suggestion that the devs make a second set o animations, because I would be very suprised if they would be wiling to go back and do that much work for one powerset, as they have been unwilling to do so in the past.
Furthermore, to those who say "its too early to tell." you really need to stop being so blindly optimistic or myopic. If they are shooting for second quarter of 2010, then its right around the corner. There is a very poor history of devs NOT going live with what they show less than a year before a product is releases. They most likely will spend the time to tighten the eisting assets. Work on animation times, damage scales, bugs, etc. Not rework an entire powerset from scratch.
So like it or lump it, this is what we are getting more or less. Personally, I dont like it, as i have said, and it will effect my decision to buy the expansion. Previously I was going to buyit as soon as it came out, now I'll likely wait a month or more.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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Any game ever which has shown dual pistols has been more flashy than what you were expecting. City of Heroes is going to be more flashy still, because it needs variety, and you don't get variety in "point and shoot." I don't want to see seven powers that are, essentially, you point the gun, you shoot the gun, that's it. Even when it comes to Masterminds their attacks grate, and they have only three.|
Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
so.... your saying that COH's DP are in fact, in the minority. Personally, i would be fine with "point, shoot" as i tend to be more interested in the character than the animation.
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Be as pessimistic as you want. I like Dual Handguns exactly as it is and I would be ANGRY if it were changed to anything less flashy.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm still trying to figure out what 7-8 non-flashy DP attacks would look like. If it was more realistic, it'd be seriously lacking in AoE beyond a cone of non-Full Auto proportions (shorter range and probably assuming a non-fully auto pistol).|
Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
so.... your saying that COH's DP are in fact, in the minority. Personally, i would be fine with "point, shoot" as i tend to be more interested in the character than the animation.
ALso, this isnt a suggestion, because that would be stupid. Any alternate animations they do would have to match the animation times of the original. So a plain shoot gun animation would most likely have to be stretched out to do that. Not to mention that the devs would have to do a metric buttload of new animations to even accomplish this. run and shoot, fall and shoot, fly an shoot.... etc. So im not making a suggestion that the devs make a second set o animations, because I would be very suprised if they would be wiling to go back and do that much work for one powerset, as they have been unwilling to do so in the past. Furthermore, to those who say "its too early to tell." you really need to stop being so blindly optimistic or myopic. If they are shooting for second quarter of 2010, then its right around the corner. There is a very poor history of devs NOT going live with what they show less than a year before a product is releases. They most likely will spend the time to tighten the eisting assets. Work on animation times, damage scales, bugs, etc. Not rework an entire powerset from scratch. So like it or lump it, this is what we are getting more or less. Personally, I dont like it, as i have said, and it will effect my decision to buy the expansion. Previously I was going to buyit as soon as it came out, now I'll likely wait a month or more. |
As to someone mentioning throwing a bunch of coins in the air and using them to ricochet for a ranged AoE, I did see something that looked like Rain of Bullets, which I honestly consider "close enough" as it'd probably end up being a shorter animation than holstering, throwing stuff in the air, redrawing, and firing.
I honestly don't see that the Devs had a choice but to go the flashy route if they wanted a full attack set. The only alternative I can think of is adding a lot of single target or cone debuffs/controls, in which case it'd be much less of an attack set and more a control set.
I was honestly somewhat against a Dual Pistol set made for the main ATs because of this. I would've preferred to see an EAT layout for a set this specific, allowing more flexibility in design–allowing debuffs, controls, and AoEs to exist in the same set, allowing more character flexibility within a somewhat restrictive design spectrum. But as a main AT set, I think what the Devs did was to be expected. And for those who love the flash (heck, it's a superhero game), it does look flash.
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Maybe the alternative could be for these less energetic gentlemen shooters from a earlier time, so they would invite the enemies to form an orderly line in front of them, then shoot a single bullet that would go through the whole line? The animation might take longer though, as it'd have to show the shooter organizing the line, and some of the enemies arguing over what place in the line they'd stand in and so on.
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Originally Posted by Hero2
I don't see a way to do the attack-types using another method. i.e. the massive PBAoE. How can you do that without a spinning, crazy, frenzied animation for it?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
You could always make a pet-less thug/pain MM, and be a gimpy empath.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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I think my opinion of you just doubled |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Maybe the alternative could be for these less energetic gentlemen shooters from a earlier time, so they would invite the enemies to form an orderly line in front of them, then shoot a single bullet that would go through the whole line? The animation might take longer though, as it'd have to show the shooter organizing the line, and some of the enemies arguing over what place in the line they'd stand in and so on.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The dual-pistol animations look over-the-top and flashy, something this game could use more of.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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I actually did see the Rain of Bullets power, as well. It's completely stupid, completely out of place, and COMPLETELY AWESOME! WANT!!! |
Originally Posted by Failsight
As to someone mentioning throwing a bunch of coins in the air and using them to ricochet for a ranged AoE, I did see something that looked like Rain of Bullets, which I honestly consider "close enough" as it'd probably end up being a shorter animation than holstering, throwing stuff in the air, redrawing, and firing.
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See, this is where I stand. Powers need to be cool. They may not always be realistic, they may not always be perfectly all-encompassing, and they may not even make a lick of sense. This isn't as important as their being really, really cool. Dual Handguns is that, in spades. Far as I'm concerned, I couldn't ask for more.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Right, because a serious, reserved soldier wouldn't use two handguns instead of a rifle. A serious, reserved soldier presupposes sufficient realism to ensure that taking two pistols to a rifle fight is the most efficient way to be ineffective and dead in that order. Even in a shared world that contains enough unrealism for a man with an assault rifle to be balanced (more or less, let's not go down that garden path) with a man who can shoot pure energy from his hands, the character who takes verisimilitude so seriously that he wouldn't go for a flashy gunkata-style pistol set wouldn't be wielding two pistols in the first place. It'd be like the Pope carrying a flame thrower. Just showing up with two pistols instead of a proper weapon already shows you care more about style than realistic substance.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Dual Pistols is a powerset that, from my perspective, fills in the role of a flashy gunslinger/gunkata artist. It's not there to represent a serious, reserved soldier or curt mercenary who just happens to be using two handguns instead of a rifle.
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Yup, and I hope their possible Electric Control set in the works is even *more* flashy!|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I actually did see the Rain of Bullets power, as well. It's completely stupid, completely out of place, and COMPLETELY AWESOME! WANT!!!
See, this is where I stand. Powers need to be cool. They may not always be realistic, they may not always be perfectly all-encompassing, and they may not even make a lick of sense. This isn't as important as their being really, really cool. Dual Handguns is that, in spades. Far as I'm concerned, I couldn't ask for more. |
This gives me hope that, when and if they create a Scythe/Polearm melee set, it will be plain awesome with smooth animation work.
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And then someone will complain that the scythe animations are too flashy, his hopes for creating a character who fights crime as if he were mowing the lawn have been cruelly dashed, and he is /ragequitting. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
This gives me hope that, when and if they create a Scythe/Polearm melee set, it will be plain awesome with smooth animation work.
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That'll be made up for by the people who want to make d4rth m4u1 |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
And then someone will complain that the scythe animations are too flashy, his hopes for creating a character who fights crime as if he were mowing the lawn have been cruelly dashed, and he is /ragequitting.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Ha! My l33t filter automatically parsed that "1" as an "i" and gave me the image of Ray Park in absurd makeup and a big pair of flowery Jams, fighting Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson with a surfboard.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That'll be made up for by the people who want to make d4rth m4u1
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Photoshop should make this so |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Ha! My l33t filter automatically parsed that "1" as an "i" and gave me the image of Ray Park in absurd makeup and a big pair of flowery Jams, fighting Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson with a surfboard.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'm totally with you here Sam. The fact that you're using guns to fight hulking, metallic robots of death in the first place should indicate that reality isn't what they're aiming for.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I actually did see the Rain of Bullets power, as well. It's completely stupid, completely out of place, and COMPLETELY AWESOME! WANT!!!
See, this is where I stand. Powers need to be cool. They may not always be realistic, they may not always be perfectly all-encompassing, and they may not even make a lick of sense. This isn't as important as their being really, really cool. Dual Handguns is that, in spades. Far as I'm concerned, I couldn't ask for more. |
There is nothing wrong with flashy powersets. They get people's attention, they attract people who may otherwise think a game is boring. They scream 'LOOK AT ME BE AWESOME!'
I personally don't like some of the early dual blades animations, but I wouldn't change the later, flashy, unrealistic ones for the world. They just look cool. And for a superhero game...that's a GOOD thing!
Hell, I hope they go back and make katana and broadsword even flashier!
I can think of ways to do nearly all the attacks, bar maybe the 'Rain of shrapnel' attack, without flashy moves.
PBAoE Nuke. Stand up straight, both guns pointed forward, start firing, swing one way, the other, then full circle. Doesn't have to be so flashy, and more 'believable'. Hell, we could even get a whooshing trenchcoat in there.
As for the cone, similar, but just stood straight and the contemptous 'mow you down' arc of fire.
T'be honest, we DONT know what all the attacks do, therefore it's kinda hard to judge what alternates there could be.
And, personally? I love 'em as they are ^^
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Precisely.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Just showing up with two pistols instead of a proper weapon already shows you care more about style than realistic substance.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I would like to see an all DP RWZ raid - everyone drops into the center of the mothership and opens up with their AoE
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I think the Captain sums it up best. Adding an animation where you just stand there and shoot certainly sounds like it would be fairly easy to add now or later. |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
... but all the other kids are doin' it, so why not?
Here's something to keep in mind, though: You don't know those are the only animations that power set will come with. (q.v. Super Strength, Martial Arts.) They may well have more than one on the boil, and picked the flashier one to put into their HEY WOW LOOKIT THAT trailer. And even if they don't, the customization system presumably means they'll have the capacity to add them later on if people beef about it often enough. |
It is an interesting point that you already have at least 1 animation of shooting 2 pistols at once. If they make 3 more, is there any reason they should be linked to specific powers? Why not let me pick which animation I want for which power or reuse the same one if I want? That would really blow the lid off Power Customization though LOL. Can't say I see who would be unhappy with it.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Ah yes. The City of boards are so much more civilized than other games' forums.
Why, no one would ever come down on someone here for offering a negative opinion based on available information. Nope. We're all civilized, open minded folks here, who certainly don't make assumptions that everything will be awesome based on a flashy preview. And we're not at all blind dev fanbois and apologists.
Nope.
Never.
Not here.
Just good civilized open minded discussion.
I'm so glad that it's acceptable and even encouraged to offer up a differing opinion here without fear of the frothing herd blindly stampeding on you. It's refreshing.
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What, am I supposed to just bow down and agree with opinions I disagree with? Are we back to the old "It's my opinion so it can't be wrong." shtick? We don't have to all agree with each other. How does that equal "coming down" on someone?
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Originally Posted by JKedan
Why, no one would ever come down on someone here for offering a negative opinion based on available information. Nope. We're all civilized, open minded folks here, who certainly don't make assumptions that everything will be awesome based on a flashy preview. And we're not at all blind dev fanbois and apologists.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Would a frothing herd provide instant milshakes?
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Originally Posted by JKedan
I'm so glad that it's acceptable and even encouraged to offer up a differing opinion here without fear of the frothing herd blindly stampeding on you. It's refreshing.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yeah, well, copycatters are inevitable no matter what the power set is. No reason to put down the power set because some people lack creativity and respect for other people's IP.
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Originally Posted by beyeajus74018
yep, here come 314 devil may cry/desperado/lara croft rip offs......lol
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Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Put me in the group with the other Equilibrium fans wanting a really flashy pistols set - after seeing the Herocon video I cannot wait to make my Dual Pistols / Energy Blaster.
Boost Range does boost the area covered by a cone, just by virtue of increasing its range - the degree of the arc stays the same, but as the cone is pushed further out from you, the furthest end of it has a wider spread - that, plus the additional range, makes it cover a much larger area than usual.