GR Market Info from Hero-Con
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-10-24 24:58 in The Market and Inventions
Quote:
Ostrichman, is that you?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
This doomcyring about the death of redside is even more stupid than the doomcrying about GR killing off AT X, Y and Z. |
I have no concern whatever that it's going to kill the redside game. I'm plenty concerned that it's going to make the market (more) sucktastic in terms of transaction throughput.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You have me confused with another poster. My personal belief was that there wasn't really all that much per captia difference between heroes and villians on total inf. since pre IOs you spent more than you made until the late 30s early 40s. I didn't believe that there was that large a bank of influence blue side after only 5 issues.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
What version of the Black Market do you use? The one I use, every single cool item is virtually always far more expensive in terms of units of currency than it's equivalent at Wentworths. Worse, unless it's a level 50 or other level-capped version, it's usually not available - especially if it's a TF/Trial drop.
My villains are vastly more wealthy in terms of units of currency than my heroes. I have never bought into the theory that villains in a merged market would be poor. Nothing in any of my personal experience supports it, and I switch what side I'm playing regularly. Villains would be selling into the same market as heroes. Selling stuff, not "traditional" marketeering is how I have made over 12B inf across both sides (about 2/3 of it on villains). Level 50s on both sides have the same per mob reward rates. I've never been convinced that Heroes have the market cornered on better level 50 farm builds, and after GR, that will be irrelevant. I do buy into the argument that Milady's Knight has brought up in the past that the merger will have an affect on the purchasing power of existing hoarded inf. Unlike MK, however, I am unconcerned with that, and consider it an acceptable collateral effect for the long-term benefits of a shared market. Recent market situations are great examples of why I don't care. Because the AE PLing phase lasted beyond the most broadly exploited farming phase, mob drop recipes and salvage decreased in supply and rose in price, sometimes dramatically. The purchasing power of my inf fell, but my ability to get more on the market rose. Now, with I16, aggregate drop rates have increased again, and supply has risen. The purchasing power of my inf has risen, sometimes dramatically. However, the devs have effectively doubled the raw inf creation rate of every level 50 character in existence. In the middle to long term, that could as much as halve the purchasing power of all my hoarded inf. I am unconcerned. I will continue to create new inf and concentrate the inf others create by selling on the markets they use. After all that, I am quite confident a market merger would not phase me. |
Dev released numbers showed that there was a disparity.
I have never been worried about villian purchasing power either. We had a long discussion about this at one point and my stand was that if there was a difference a EURO solution would work but was probably not needed.
I have always maintained that villians would be able to prosper in a healthier market and that merging them would create a healthier market for both sides. Slightly better for blue side toons and vastly better for red side toons.
My red side toons have larger banks than the majority of my blue side toons for the simple reason that there is much less to buy red side. I frequently out leveled bids before they were filled and cancelled them to bid on other or higher level recipes.
I tend to bid about 80% of going rate on things and let them sit. Blue side things come in with in a week or 2. Red side I have out standing bids on things that are months old. Even though I have FAR fewer villians I have far more unfilled and outstanding bids red side.
Quite frankly, I don't care if my red side inf is devalued if it means I have access to more goods through a merger.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Excellent point.|
Originally Posted by SDragon
So... the only difference between being a hero and a Vigilante is that one gets access to both sides of content?
Why would I want to be a hero anymore? (swap villains/rogues, same deal) |
And also getting over a heart attack from a red name posting in Market.
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another point I just remembered from long-ago merger wars-
Overall, villains are better soloers than heroes.
The best way to generate inf is soloing.
ergo, as a group villains are better at generating inf than heroes.
Also, last point- the only valid argument against a merger I've seen is COTCavehater's stand, which was that he enjoyed the insane profiteering that low supply let him get away with on the BM. A merger would wreck his fun.
A stand I'm not sure the devs would adopt as their rationale....
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Quote:
Really? Hmm. What I am remembering is you and I having a long debate in here some time back, and I thought this was what it was about. Sorry about misattributing it to you. Now I really wonder who the heck that was.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
You have me confused with another poster.
... Quite frankly, I don't care if my red side inf is devalued if it means I have access to more goods through a merger. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by SDragon
So... the only difference between being a hero and a Vigilante is that one gets access to both sides of content?
Why would I want to be a hero anymore? (swap villains/rogues, same deal) |
I don't know. How can anyone answer for you? :P
Seriously though, the people who would want to stay heroes would be people who don't have any interest in playing red-side at all. The same question could be posed by them, albeit worded differently: 'Why would I want to be a vigilante? I don't like CoV.'
As for why anyone who plays both sides would be compelled NOT to switch sides, I would imagine there will be some kind of perk or benefit for not switching. What those are though, I couldn't say. Just wildly speculating.
It's been stated that there will be a perk for those staying Heroic/Villainous, but no further info on it. I'd have to imagine it would be fairly good if that's a decision that precludes a character from experiencing a large chunk of content. Extra slot(s)? Combat bonuses? Enhancements that are only slottable by the two extremes (reminds me of the old MUD days where equipment would zap off of you if you weren't in the range for it)?
The price disparities and shortages...are these more pronounced on things like purples rather than other recipes? I solo on both sides, and I haven't had *that* much more difficulty outfitting my villains than heroes, though I don't deal with the extremes (purples, LoTG, etc). Without any sort of farming or more involved marketeering (I don't play my 50s much, I get there then move to another character), I figure they're largely out of reach anyway (if I don't happen to luck upon one here or there). I tend to carry more money on my villains too, fwiw.
edit: I'd also probably need a semi-compelling story reason personally to want to switch sides or even wind up in the middle. After all, if I wanted to play red or blue content, I'd just do so on a character I already made on that side. If I want, say, a MM blue-side badly enough, I'll just roll one in Praetoria and become a hero.
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The redside market is vibrant and healthy. At level 50. At all levels below that, it is a graveyard.
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Originally Posted by gec72
The price disparities and shortages...are these more pronounced on things like purples rather than other recipes? I solo on both sides, and I haven't had *that* much more difficulty outfitting my villains than heroes, though I don't deal with the extremes (purples, LoTG, etc). Without any sort of farming or more involved marketeering (I don't play my 50s much, I get there then move to another character), I figure they're largely out of reach anyway (if I don't happen to luck upon one here or there). I tend to carry more money on my villains too, fwiw. |
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This, pretty much. You can get other stuff with merits, and you can find things that cap out below 50 at their respective caps, since level 50 people random roll them using merits and tickets. So things like Touch of Death and Miracle exist at level 40.|
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
The redside market is vibrant and healthy. At level 50. At all levels below that, it is a graveyard.
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Below those caps, supply is low and bids fill very slowly. The same thing is true on heroside, but the effect for villains is more pronounced due to the smaller player population.
My opinion is that the smaller population effect is actually stronger than just the ratio of the population sizes. I don't think, for example, that a 1/3-sized red population creates a 1/3rd speed market experience. I think it's stronger than that, because of psychological feedback factors. I suspect that people perceive the market as slower, and use it less. The villain market seems likely to be heavily influencted by a small percentage of power-users who wield more influence over its transactions. The same is true on the blue side, but on villains I suspect this body of players is a smaller percentage of the villain market users and that it exerts more influence than its hero equivalent.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I remember it. You and I were on the same side in that debate. I can't recall who it was that was so upset by a potential merger either though. He was pretty adamant about his position and kept going back to the post that Ex Libris scribed for Posi that listed the hero head start on inf and salvage as the main reason that the merger wouldn't go forward.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Really? Hmm. What I am remembering is you and I having a long debate in here some time back, and I thought this was what it was about. Sorry about misattributing it to you. Now I really wonder who the heck that was.
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You had pointed out (quite correctly) that base (or any other type) salvage didn't exist prior to villians and so the salvage comment in that statement of Posi's (via Ex) was incorrect, which for me had the effect of making the rest of that statement invalid as a supportive arguement.
How much of it was fact? How much was a mis-statement? How much of it was Posi shooting from the hip to avoid doing something he knew he "should" do but wasn't going to because he "didn't want to?"
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Ahh! Thanks, you've jogged my memory now. I still can't remember his forum name, but (as odd as it seems given I can't recall the name) I know who it was now.
Reminded now, I have no idea why I thought it was you.
I wonder if I saved that anywhere... Stuff like this bugs me till I figure it out. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I knew posi was the one buying all those hyraulic pistons redside when you needed tem and selling them for 10x the price! =P
EDIT: until further info comes along, seems like having every single toon you have become a vigilante (not rogue) will be the gold standard for playing CoH or CoH with some tourism on rogue isles.
Going rogue as an expansion seems to have some major hurdles and I'm very afraid of the boundaries and no-nos they will set up in order to avoid these hurdles. The market thing is the first one we heard. I expect plenty of new annoyances to appear to keep the game from becoming City of Vigilantes.
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Hope you are wrong. |
Originally Posted by GeminiProject
I knew posi was the one buying all those hyraulic pistons redside when you needed tem and selling them for 10x the price! =P
EDIT: until further info comes along, seems like having every single toon you have become a vigilante (not rogue) will be the gold standard for playing CoH or CoH with some tourism on rogue isles. Going rogue as an expansion seems to have some major hurdles and I'm very afraid of the boundaries and no-nos they will set up in order to avoid these hurdles. The market thing is the first one we heard. I expect plenty of new annoyances to appear to keep the game from becoming City of Vigilantes. |
The way the beta is set up there should be lots of screaming if they go out of their way to place to many obstacles. I have heard hearsay though that they have really really deaf ears for complaints about their plans by the time they reach beta.
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Yes? But then again, this is easy in San Francisco since they will brag about it.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
When you buy Coffee in real life, do you validate that it wasn't grown in ways that exploit local people or their resources?
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That will be the best way for all toons. Even red siders. Become a Rogue, then go all the way to being a Hero, then fall back as a Vigilante and stay there. You can access content on either side but you get to shop on the robust side. Just another reason that leaving the markets separate is ....... well there's no polite way to say it so I'll leave it to the reader to fill in the blank.
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Originally Posted by GeminiProject
I knew posi was the one buying all those hyraulic pistons redside when you needed tem and selling them for 10x the price! =P
EDIT: until further info comes along, seems like having every single toon you have become a vigilante (not rogue) will be the gold standard for playing CoH or CoH with some tourism on rogue isles. Going rogue as an expansion seems to have some major hurdles and I'm very afraid of the boundaries and no-nos they will set up in order to avoid these hurdles. The market thing is the first one we heard. I expect plenty of new annoyances to appear to keep the game from becoming City of Vigilantes. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
My thoughts exactly MK. Unless there's something more to it that we don't know about yet (which is almost guaranteed) all of my toons will be parked at vigilante, since I play mostly brutes red side, I'd have to go hero first and then fall again. Hoping that you do become a vigilante and not a rogue again....
well,there are a lot of questions,and little answers,at first when COV happened there was a lot of problems not having enough IMF to buy stuff,at the low lvls,then it was realised that heroes got a bit more "extra" cash due to bonuses given for saving people street sweeping.
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Quote:
The bonuses at the lower lv are nice, but as you increase in lv they become a non factor. A player would have to really work hard to leverage that into some kind of major revenue stream. At that point its easier to just do missions. And with the new difficulty settings the mobs will be set where you want them to be.|
Originally Posted by MadHobbit
well,there are a lot of questions,and little answers,at first when COV happened there was a lot of problems not having enough IMF to buy stuff,at the low lvls,then it was realised that heroes got a bit more "extra" cash due to bonuses given for saving people street sweeping.
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~MR
AE Arc: 305214 Blood Diamonds (Villainous)
Unleashed/Unchained/B.O.S.S.
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They are a non factor. Mission complete bonus is far larger than any total bonuses you get for street sweeping and any defeats you suffer in a mission are at half XP debt rather than full XP debt that you get on the outside.|
Originally Posted by MindRipper
The bonuses at the lower lv are nice, but as you increase in lv they become a non factor. A player would have to really work hard to leverage that into some kind of major revenue stream. At that point its easier to just do missions. And with the new difficulty settings the mobs will be set where you want them to be.
~MR |
Mobs outside aren't affected by the difficulty sliders and almost always spawn at the character level or higher depending on the levels of that zone.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
RE: "double-dipping" accolades.|
Originally Posted by Wuigly Squigly
Link please.
Pretty sure I heard the contrary like a day or 2 ago, but knowing for sure is always nice. |
I heard this statement out of Posi's mouth in person. He said that there would be NO double-dipping of accolade powers (emphasis mine).
I emphasize the word "powers" because some people have taken that statement to be proof that a toon's exclusive-to-faction badges disappear upon changing to the opposite faction, but I don't believe it says anything of the sort. It MIGHT be that way, but this is only a statement regarding powers derived from accolades the way I hear/read it.
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I'd guess it's a moving target of convenience. Playing the game is only doing whatever the speaker approves of.|
Originally Posted by maggotface
I'd like an example of what *exactly* "playing the game" is. It could be so very many things.
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Also, I got positive rep for saying "red is green." My feelings on this are mixed.
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And now I got neg rep for this. My feelings on this are still mixed!|
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
I'd guess it's a moving target of convenience. Playing the game is only doing whatever the speaker approves of.
Also, I got positive rep for saying "red is green." My feelings on this are mixed. |
Whoever gave me both of these reps, thanks for the laugh on the second (neg) one.
ETA:
And for the person who left:
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| Derailing threads with rep whining. |
Please, people, I understand English can be an ambiguous language, but words mean things. When you say "whine" you're referring to a certain kind of behavior. A statement does not become a whine simply because it disturbs your fragile state of "zen".
I only mention rep if it amuses me, or if the rep in question is embarrassingly bad (sometimes both). I don't mention even half of my negative rep. This rep is embarrassingly bad. The previous two were amusing.
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Anonymous passive aggressive rep comments are the light of my life.
As for this new development re: market merging (or lack thereof) I was pretty disappointed. It also seems like the reasons we have been given are more justifications for Posi not wanting the markets merged (because a villain flipper cut him off once on a motorway?) as opposed to actual reasons why the markets should not be merged.
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1. Supply and Demand are market forces.
2. The price where Supply and demand meet is called "Equilibrium Price."
3. Prices on both the Villainside and Heroside markets for "desired" items are in general, at minimum "in the ball park" or "somewhat near Equilibrium Price."
4. Heroes and Villains will still find items and attempt to sell them in a merged market in a similar manner to what they do now.
5. Heroes and Villains will still try to buy items in a merged market in a similar manner to what they do now.
6. If Heroes wanted more of an item they would pay more for it now.
7. Prices are generally higher on Villainside for desired expensive items.
8. The person who pays more money gets the item.
9. Villains generally are willing to pay more money.
10. Villains will buy more rare items than they do now in a Merged market.
Apparently Heroes will buy more Crushing Impacts and Alchemical Silvers.
Boo hoo.
*EDIT* This post is also why the "Inf Disparity" argument is a load of nonsense. Unless one says that Villains have more Inf per character than heroes then the Inf Disparity problem is real because Villains have an advantage.
Heroes won't pay more. They only want so many a day at current prices. Heroes won't want more items a day at higher prices. This statement is easily proven on the market. Take a sack of money (heck I'll give you it) and raise prices of items on the heroside market. See if they stay in the raised state or fall back down after you are done.