GR Market Info from Hero-Con
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-10-24 24:58 in The Market and Inventions
By in large I prefer the red side content and the red side AT's, but the red side market is a serious impediment to building characters the way I would like.
Assuming that the markets are not merged in GR (something I am personally stunned and mystified by) then I will likely end up starting all my characters in Praetoria (so I can access the ATs I like) and staying a Vigilante (so I can access the content and market I like). About the only downside of this is that I can't use the VEAT ATs. For those I'd have to go through the more lengthy complete switch and then fall back down to Vigilante.
Depending on how many folks are of like mind, the markets may merge themselves.
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Differnece is when I say you cant go back i just mean it would very likely not be viable. Even if it was technically so, take it away after it's been done and the uproar would be devastating.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
(SCR applies equally to saying a merger is a one way deal)
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The 'damage' done by a merger ? The markets go through massive changes caused by Deve events and new issues regularly. A merger would lead to a rapid establishment of a new equlibrium (2-4 weeks IMHO) and go forward from there. There is no damage there. A change yes. Damage ? No. |
The concept is not too different from adding a new sales tax to a state and removing income tax. In theory, you are netting even and it would take just one tax cycle to adjust, but in truth anyone that saved money before the sales tax finds that his saving may be now worth less as sales tax apply to him where income tax did not.
How on earth is this related? Because the income of established villains will loose a lot of value. The chances are process will go up drastically for villains and down minimally for heroes.
The impact of dev events and new issues market alterations treat everyone equally. This would be extremely more advantageous for one group of people at the expense of others, at least for a while.
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| The result would be a villain is not disadvantaged by a slow poor market. |
I actually am in favor of a merger, but mostly because I can play the game without any issues if I can't buy stuff for my villains for a month or more, due to my extremely "i don't really care about that so much" atitude a bout buying IOs. I mostly care to sell so for me it would be ideal to actually merge no matter what side I'm on. I just also know that many villains want their IOs and cool set bonuses now. Tell them they have to pay hero prices for everything and see how they take it.
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
I have thought long about this comment, and I'm not really sure you've shopped at either store.
Perhaps you could elaborate on this concept? |
Sure, the idea is if you have a place where you can buy things for a fixed but high price (Macy's, Barney's, Tiffany (Actually their prices are variable) etc) you eliminate variably priced channels such as ebay.
My point was this is not the case in the real world and there is no reason to suspect it will be the case in the game. As things stand you can buy common recipes from a crafting table, yet people still use the markets and frequently pay more than the going rate at the table. Take a look at midrange endmods. If you wanted to you could make money reverse vending them. Buy them at the crafting table and sell them for a profit at the market. *
*Yes city of schleppers rises again.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
For a while, the villains will find their goods sell faster (some goods, the ones heroes care about) but they will find themselves not being able to afford the higher prices heroes have established.
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This is a COMPLETELY ridiculous statement.
Villains already pay as much or more for 'the good stuff' as heroes do.
Even if we pretend you have a point, those imaginary higher prices would benefit villains when they sold their junk on a combined market.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
You've got people making huge assumptions about the game's design philosophy. You've got people making huge assumptions about the motivations of the development team. You have people with serious questions and theories about what the future of the markets will be. It's a state of confusion, debate, and chaos.
But never fear, along comes Castle, the super red name to clear up our misconceptions and restore order. Let's listen;
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Oh, he just wants to comment on the thing we worked out on our own two pages back. Nevermind. Let the chaos resume!
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Originally Posted by Castle
If you go all the way from Villain through Rogue to Hero, then you can use WW. Conversely, a Hero who goes all the way to Villain can only use the BM.
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Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
The real solution to the inequity between red and blue side markets boils down to the number of players. This being the case, if you want more balance on the red side, play more villains. Merging the markets is just a crutch that will be forgotten for new complaints a few months later.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Ah, my old friend the Magic Pony plan...how I've missed it!|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
The real solution to the inequity between red and blue side markets boils down to the number of players. This being the case, if you want more balance on the red side, play more villains. Merging the markets is just a crutch that will be forgotten for new complaints a few months later.
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If more people WANTED to play villains, they'd do it.
The historically stable villain population indicates that the playerbase prefers heroes by a wide margin, so the play moar villains "solution" amounts to wishing for a unicorn to bring you a magic chocolate milkshake that turns you into King Midas.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Merged markets: easy example
New villains sell luck charms from those snake missions for more (heck sell any low tier salvage for more than the BM average)
New villains benefit from a merge which demonstrates nicely that villains are not cut and dried harmed by a merger.
A rich villain would be less locked out of the market than a level 1 hero.
You do know a level 1 hero recently became a millionaire without defeating a single mob, right ?
Even discounting extreme marketing like that, Level 1 heros build wealth from a lot lower base and a lot lower rate than an established villain.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Reminds me of my thread (long since devoured by the forum monster) where I ran a new villain up to level 10 and compared the value of their drops on the BM and what it would have been if he'd sold on Wents.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Even discounting extreme marketing like that, Level 1 heros build wealth from a lot lower base and a lot lower rate than an established villain.
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As I recall it was something like 3-1 in favor of Wents, junk worth less than 100k on the BM that would have gone for 300k+ at Wents.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Castle
If you go all the way from Villain through Rogue to Hero, then you can use WW. Conversely, a Hero who goes all the way to Villain can only use the BM.
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I cant understand why this opprotunity isnt being taken to just combine the markets into one system to take atleast on inequity away from being a villian? Hell even for theme there is a black market truck parked in back of WW in talos, so its pretty obvious that the idea is the BM is leeching off WW anyway.
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I would KILL for the opportunity to pay hero prices for items. Right now the problem is some of the things I want are not available in a time frame that suits me. Even if I am paying more, (not always true.) at least I would have the opportunity to obtain the items I covet in a reasonable timeframe. And if I want to buy it NAO and overbid horribly, so what? I raise INF just as easily red or blue side.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
I just also know that many villains want their IOs and cool set bonuses now. Tell them they have to pay hero prices for everything and see how they take it.
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M'Teru couldn't get the job done. So she sent Mot to Astoria. Bad call.
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OMG a real red name actually posting in the Market Forum in a Market thread and not an invention thread.|
Originally Posted by Castle
If you go all the way from Villain through Rogue to Hero, then you can use WW. Conversely, a Hero who goes all the way to Villain can only use the BM.
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/e heart attack
All that aside. What about insp passing between the various classes while in what was "co-op" content or between Heroes and Rogues or Villians and Vigilantes?
That also aside why not just merge the market? You are going to have items passing back and forth anyway with this. People all ready profiteer (especially red side) this will just create yet another opportunity for mass profiteering (not that I mind that's what at least some of this forum section is about after all) but it will also cause the opportunity for mass whining from the "casual" player who is unable to "purple out their Warshades".
If this was in response to "you lost 2 sales" ok as long as I can pass insps back and forth between the various classes you got the sales back
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Im sorry, what? When exactly did I get "stung"?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Oooh it looks you two are still stung by the other thread. Try some ointment.
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Oh, wait, hold on a second, I see what almost happened here. I'll give you what you want.
0/10
There you go.
"And I swear to effing god, that community is .01% nethergoat-level smart and 99.99% completely fascinating varieties of turd-licking idiots" -Talen Lee
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Why do either? There will be fallen empaths on Red Side now. On a good server raiding Hami will be faster than either for a much larger portion of the player base. Which really is the way it should be, but I do see why the devs wanted an alternate way to get Hami-Os to the player base.
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Originally Posted by CaptainMoodswing
Here is a hypothetical question. Let's say someone wants hamidon enhancements. If the market is merged, why would anyone ever do LRSF ever again? Why not just do STF over and over?
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
First and foremost, I'm not an economist.
But I've been wracking my brain on and off for more than a year as to why the two markets aren't merged. I can't find a single rational reason from the perspective of the player.
Yes, there's an initial iniquity, but the heroes have more money and things cost more at the black market, so these two will eventually even out. In fact, given how radically prices can fluctuate on common salvage, I'd be willing to bet it won't take more than a week or two. If merged, the villains could immediately start taking advantage of lower prices posted by heroes, and thus get their goods for less money. Then, as prices seek a new equilibrium, some of the super-expensive villain stuff will get bought, too, putting cash in the hands of villains. These two trends indicate that the influence/infamy level would also find its own level in a similar time frame.
Unless I'm missing some principle of predictable irrationality or a major technical hurdle, the rational course seems to be merging.
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You nailed it right out of the box. Welcome to the "ebil" side.
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Originally Posted by Veazey
First and foremost, I'm not an economist.
But I've been wracking my brain on and off for more than a year as to why the two markets aren't merged. I can't find a single rational reason from the perspective of the player. Yes, there's an initial iniquity, but the heroes have more money and things cost more at the black market, so these two will eventually even out. In fact, given how radically prices can fluctuate on common salvage, I'd be willing to bet it won't take more than a week or two. If merged, the villains could immediately start taking advantage of lower prices posted by heroes, and thus get their goods for less money. Then, as prices seek a new equilibrium, some of the super-expensive villain stuff will get bought, too, putting cash in the hands of villains. These two trends indicate that the influence/infamy level would also find its own level in a similar time frame. Unless I'm missing some principle of predictable irrationality or a major technical hurdle, the rational course seems to be merging. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I've already said this in another thread but...
Merge the markets please devs! Please....with sugar (or whatever topping ya want) on top?
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Originally Posted by Castle
If you go all the way from Villain through Rogue to Hero, then you can use WW. Conversely, a Hero who goes all the way to Villain can only use the BM.
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So... the only difference between being a hero and a Vigilante is that one gets access to both sides of content?
Why would I want to be a hero anymore?
(swap villains/rogues, same deal)
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In the words of the Talking Heads, STOP MAKING SENSE!|
Originally Posted by Veazey
First and foremost, I'm not an economist.
But I've been wracking my brain on and off for more than a year as to why the two markets aren't merged. I can't find a single rational reason from the perspective of the player. Yes, there's an initial iniquity, but the heroes have more money and things cost more at the black market, so these two will eventually even out. In fact, given how radically prices can fluctuate on common salvage, I'd be willing to bet it won't take more than a week or two. If merged, the villains could immediately start taking advantage of lower prices posted by heroes, and thus get their goods for less money. Then, as prices seek a new equilibrium, some of the super-expensive villain stuff will get bought, too, putting cash in the hands of villains. These two trends indicate that the influence/infamy level would also find its own level in a similar time frame. Unless I'm missing some principle of predictable irrationality or a major technical hurdle, the rational course seems to be merging. |
=P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I'm thinking maybe you won't have access to your contacts on hero side and you can't start task forces. I dunno.
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Originally Posted by SDragon
So... the only difference between being a hero and a Vigilante is that one gets access to both sides of content?
Why would I want to be a hero anymore? (swap villains/rogues, same deal) |
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I have also spent a long long time pondering markets, and I went through a similar thought train. The end results... the same.|
Originally Posted by Veazey
First and foremost, I'm not an economist.
But I've been wracking my brain on and off for more than a year as to why the two markets aren't merged. I can't find a single rational reason from the perspective of the player. Yes, there's an initial iniquity, but the heroes have more money and things cost more at the black market, so these two will eventually even out. In fact, given how radically prices can fluctuate on common salvage, I'd be willing to bet it won't take more than a week or two. If merged, the villains could immediately start taking advantage of lower prices posted by heroes, and thus get their goods for less money. Then, as prices seek a new equilibrium, some of the super-expensive villain stuff will get bought, too, putting cash in the hands of villains. These two trends indicate that the influence/infamy level would also find its own level in a similar time frame. Unless I'm missing some principle of predictable irrationality or a major technical hurdle, the rational course seems to be merging. |
Why are we not being allowed the opportunity to merge the markets? A larger population of participants will ultimately help the prices be more stable.
If it were down to a vote, then I would vote to merge the markets.
x Jeremy M.
Global Handle: @JeremyM
City of Heroes LiveJournal Community
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This is a question we've been asking ourselves over in RO land (where we *do* have magical unicorns that bring us chocolate milkshakes BTW) and we've pretty much come to the same conclusion. Unless there is something we don't know yet you'd have to have one heck of a backstory and be a stickler for being in character if you ever played anything other than a vigilante/rogue.|
Originally Posted by SDragon
So... the only difference between being a hero and a Vigilante is that one gets access to both sides of content?
Why would I want to be a hero anymore? (swap villains/rogues, same deal) |
In fact, given the devs seemingly stubborn refusal to merge the markets I'm having trouble seeing the reason to play anything other than a vigilante. (Note - I say seemingly stubborn because they may have a rational explanation for the decision - I just haven't seen it articulated as of yet.)
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By the way, removed the Smalltime and put in some Victory for you. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Unicron to bring you a Magic Strawberry Milkshake that turns you into Perseus.
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"And I swear to effing god, that community is .01% nethergoat-level smart and 99.99% completely fascinating varieties of turd-licking idiots" -Talen Lee
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What version of the Black Market do you use? The one I use, every single cool item is virtually always far more expensive in terms of units of currency than it's equivalent at Wentworths. Worse, unless it's a level 50 or other level-capped version, it's usually not available - especially if it's a TF/Trial drop.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I just also know that many villains want their IOs and cool set bonuses now. Tell them they have to pay hero prices for everything and see how they take it.
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My villains are vastly more wealthy in terms of units of currency than my heroes.
I have never bought into the theory that villains in a merged market would be poor. Nothing in any of my personal experience supports it, and I switch what side I'm playing regularly. Villains would be selling into the same market as heroes. Selling stuff, not "traditional" marketeering is how I have made over 12B inf across both sides (about 2/3 of it on villains). Level 50s on both sides have the same per mob reward rates. I've never been convinced that Heroes have the market cornered on better level 50 farm builds, and after GR, that will be irrelevant.
I do buy into the argument that Milady's Knight has brought up in the past that the merger will have an affect on the purchasing power of existing hoarded inf. Unlike MK, however, I am unconcerned with that, and consider it an acceptable collateral effect for the long-term benefits of a shared market. Recent market situations are great examples of why I don't care. Because the AE PLing phase lasted beyond the most broadly exploited farming phase, mob drop recipes and salvage decreased in supply and rose in price, sometimes dramatically. The purchasing power of my inf fell, but my ability to get more on the market rose. Now, with I16, aggregate drop rates have increased again, and supply has risen. The purchasing power of my inf has risen, sometimes dramatically. However, the devs have effectively doubled the raw inf creation rate of every level 50 character in existence. In the middle to long term, that could as much as halve the purchasing power of all my hoarded inf. I am unconcerned. I will continue to create new inf and concentrate the inf others create by selling on the markets they use.
After all that, I am quite confident a market merger would not phase me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
"If you dont play the way I do, youre not really playing!"
Also, up is down and red is green.
P.S. If you want to play city of schleppers more power to you for me time is money.