I don't feel strongly about an underwater zone. I don't hate the idea, but I am not excited in the least about it.
I think that requiring a power to breathe is a non-starter; a temp power with any duration short of infinite won't work because players would simply be annoyed if they started dying in the middle of a mission due to their respirator running out and had to exit back to an NPC to get a new respirator.
My main concern is that an underwater zone would just be eye-rollingly silly. We all suspend disbelief in the game now. We don't bat an eye when someone with Super Jump somehow changes direction in mid-jump, or when a speed-capped Super Speeder goes from top speed to dead stopped instantly or when a hero roasts someone to death for something as trivial as stealing a purse.
But Sam pointed out lots of power use issues that would be impossible for many players to ignore. I'd rather not have a zone that, as Sam put it, amounted to teal air and perma flight with a different animation.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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This example is not a valid one.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Why would you assume that just because something has wings it can fly?
Kiwis, Penguins, the Falkland Flightless Duck, Ostrich, Emu, Rheas, Cassowaries, Flightless Comorants, Snoring Rail, Campbell Island Teal, the Kakapo Parrot, Dodo (extinct), elephant bird (extinct), Terror birds (extinct) These are several species of birds that can't fly, so why would it be different for hero/villain? |
Yes, there are species of birds which have wings but cannot fly.
But 99% of people who make characters with wings intend them to be able to fly. Ergo it falls under the same heading as "My character is *blah* and doesn't need to breath."
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| And what does this have to do with a robot,energy being, etc that doesn't have lungs being forced to breathe? That's like telling a speedster that he has to take teleport in order to run fast. It doesn't make sense. |
If you have a robotic character, whom you want to say is a robot with thick metal plating so bullets bounce off them, you are pretty much required to choose either a defensive powerset, or get defensive powers from power pools. Or ignore the fact that even bullets from generic thugs hurt your invincible robot.
So it's like telling someone who wants to run super fast that they have to take super speed.
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| Everything has a weakness. Even superman can get knocked out or stunned if the force of the impact is powerful enough. and this still doesn't address the issue that some types of characters don't breathe. |
by the logic of "My robot shouldn't have to take a power to breath under water." My zombie shouldn't have to take a power to stand back up after it's been knocked around.
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For a living being endurance represents exhaustion. For an artificial life form it represents power reserves. Capacitors, etc need to recharge before it can use it's powers again. Endurance is only here for game balance and the devs have openly stated that they would get rid of it entirely if they had their druthers. |
Most sources people will draw undead creatures from state that the undead cannot tire.
People will use inexhaustible power suppliers for their robots.
People will say their character has no need for sleep.
This means there are plenty of character concepts, that are readily able to be done in the character creator, which should not have endurance.
What you are arguing for is for absolutely every character in the game to be given a super power, whether they want it or not, absolutely free.
...
Fine, I want every character in the game to be able to see through walls!
We have the same REASON for our arguments. Character concept. But this is something that cannot please everyone in terms of character concept.
Every single solution to the problem will make someone unhappy.
I say, the game assumes you are human* (unless you're a hero Epic, at which point it assumes you are a human merged with a space squid). The costume creator allows for nonhuman options, but still. The game "assumes" you are human.
Therefor, just like all the other powers that you take to be "super human", you should have to take a water breathing power.
*It tends to assume you are a human, from the current time frame, from the current universe, unfamiliar with temporal or dimensional travel, with all the standard needs of a human.
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| Edit: Had Kiwis listed twice. |
Just to clarify, when I dis Aquaman, I'm talking about this guy:
not this guy:
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It's a perfectly valid one.|
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
This example is not a valid one.
Yes, there are species of birds which have wings but cannot fly. But 99% of people who make characters with wings intend them to be able to fly. Ergo it falls under the same heading as "My character is *blah* and doesn't need to breath." |
The person I duo my angel with plays a warshade. He has burned wings, and teleport.
Some people use the little wings just for looks. They might have any or none of the travel powers.
They can still get around the game with NO travel power whatsoever.
The point is moot because, if it limits travel, it won't happen. And no, you CAN Still run and SS and suchnot around place like Grandeville. NO map at all has places that cannot be accessed by foot. It's just incredibly difficult at times.
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.. No it isn't like telling a speedster to take teleport. If you have a robotic character, whom you want to say is a robot with thick metal plating so bullets bounce off them, you are pretty much required to choose either a defensive powerset, or get defensive powers from power pools. Or ignore the fact that even bullets from generic thugs hurt your invincible robot. So it's like telling someone who wants to run super fast that they have to take super speed.
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My namesake is an ideal example. He's smaller than human sized. He won't DIE if shot, cut and beaten up. But it's not particularly hard for a big enough and tough enough person.
Thats IF you can bet past his minders, who are not only big but they pack laser cannons as standard.
The point is again moot. Even against a tower of steel, a bullet has every chance of slipping through that tiny gap, or busting a weak plate, or somehow getting into the internals which, the more complex the robot, are more likely to be very fiddly and balanced and, therefore, vulnerable.
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Depends on the rule set you use. There are plenty of mythos used for undead which state that the only way they can be stopped is to be completely destroyed, or even when they are "slain" they will still stand back up. by the logic of "My robot shouldn't have to take a power to breath under water." My zombie shouldn't have to take a power to stand back up after it's been knocked around. |
Travel AT ALL in a zone = Requires a power = Broken
Character cannot be exactly accurate to mythos that would break the game = balance
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Yes endurance is here for game balance, but that doesn't change things. Most sources people will draw undead creatures from state that the undead cannot tire. People will use inexhaustible power suppliers for their robots. People will say their character has no need for sleep. This means there are plenty of character concepts, that are readily able to be done in the character creator, which should not have endurance. What you are arguing for is for absolutely every character in the game to be given a super power, whether they want it or not, absolutely free. |
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Fine, I want every character in the game to be able to see through walls!
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It actualy is possible to see through walls, too. Buy yourself a slightly crappy laptop, crank the graphics all the way down to minimum. The walls will, at certain points, become visible after the enemies are visible. While its handy once or twice, it quickly gets disorienting and very, very annoying.
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We have the same REASON for our arguments. Character concept. But this is something that cannot please everyone in terms of character concept. Every single solution to the problem will make someone unhappy. I say, the game assumes you are human (unless you're a hero Epic, at which point it assumes you are a human merged with a space squid). The costume creator allows for nonhuman options, but still. The game "assumes" you are human. Therefor, just like all the other powers that you take to be "super human", you should have to take a water breathing power. |
And how is FORCING someone to take a power a better alternative than giving everyone access for free, while allowing them the access they already have to handwave things and/or come up with their own unique reasons for doing things?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I didn't know you were psychic. I'll tell my wife she was wrong and wanted fly not SJ on her demons.
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Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
This example is not a valid one.
Yes, there are species of birds which have wings but cannot fly. But 99% of people who make characters with wings intend them to be able to fly. Ergo it falls under the same heading as "My character is *blah* and doesn't need to breath." |
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I love the way the wings flap feebly when you jump.
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Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
I didn't know you were psychic. I'll tell my wife she was wrong and wanted fly not SJ on her demons.
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Is it odd or predictable that most of us present here will cite examples to the contrary? After all, remember the big furor around wings to get them to flap while jumping and teleporting.|
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
This example is not a valid one.
Yes, there are species of birds which have wings but cannot fly. But 99% of people who make characters with wings intend them to be able to fly. Ergo it falls under the same heading as "My character is *blah* and doesn't need to breath." |
I, myself, have two characters with wings who don't fly that I can think of. One is a teleporter, who uses his wings only to hold up between teleports, but doesn't have Fly. The other is "fallen angel" style girl who has burnt wings which are useless for flight, but aid in gliding and leaping, as well as serving as representation of her shame.
Which brings up another interesting point - wings flap when you fly. If it's just a simple as enabling flight underwater, I GUARANTEE that those vigorously flapping wings are going to look mighty stupid underwater. I don't care if I turn my brain down to zero, I'm never going to be able to look past a wide-area, light-weight structure moving through water broad-side first at THAT speed. That's like trying to drag an open parachute underwater and and still move at several times running speed.
You know, one thing I always missed in very fast travel on land in City of Heroes was any feeling of air resistance. Granted, the engine limits us to around highway speed, at best, but even so, I've always wanted to see a bit of a rush of air as you super super-run, a bit of a feeling of impact when you super-jump off the top of a huge building, or, heck, even a bit of a shockwave when you hit the flight cap. One of my favourite things to do in Rollcage, for instance, was to just floor it and watch the heat and shockwave build up at the front of my car like I was going to leave the planet
We lack that in City of Heroes. We even lack a proper super run. We just have the same jogging jiggle, even at the same speed of footstep, only we slide along the ground faster.Well, if it bugs me that we lack these things in air, it'll bug me MANY TIMES MORE that we lack these things in water, because in water, you WILL see these effects at any speed of motion faster than walking pace. Water resistance is far greater than air resistance, which is probably one of the two key factors that DEFINE water (the other being buoyancy) in terms of a gaming environment. You swim in it, and you move slower and with more effort through it. Without those, it's not worth having it in the first place. The Grandville and Cimerora quasi-underwater locations are a perfect example of everything that's wrong with the system.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Some of 'em already do! (I'm looking at you, Tech Wings.)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I GUARANTEE that those vigorously flapping wings are going to look mighty stupid underwater.
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I'd actually take a blending of the two with a little bit of the new Aquaman thrown in. I don't like the beard, long hair, hook hand/water hand, but I like the regal King of the Seas attitude. The guy that will do anything to protect his fellow Atlanteans and everyone else, heroes included, be darned. But I prefer the classic look all be it the more modern suit. As for the new Aquaman I like the mystical aspects of it. If you take all three and combine them, the classic look, the hook hand attitude, King of Atlantis, and the mystic thrown in I think that's how you make a good Aquaman that isn't dissed as much. And really show some good use for his powers and expand on them. He can be a force and way back when he wasn't a dissed hero.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Just to clarify, when I dis Aquaman, I'm talking about this guy:
not this guy: |
As for the OT. If we can accept super strength as an ability why can't somone who can pickup and hurl a boulder in the first place have the strength to throw one underwater. I wouldn't just want a bluish tinted area with perma fly, but perhaps if they did that and added some sort of wave distortion effect all around that would make it feel more like water. As long as people can bend disbelief a little further powers life fire, electricity and such would be fine with me. Maybe they can add some bubble effects surrounding all powers, who knows. Either way it's not something that would be easy to implement, but then again that's what the devs said about Power Customization and look where we are today. I'm all for an under water zone if they can do it.
50s - Energyman, Elec^3 Blaster - Light Bringer Prime, Triform PB - OxyStorm, Robo/Storm/Mace MM - Widow Lotone, NW - Psi-Vox, Ill/FF/Earth Control
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ROFLMAO! I didn't even need to respond to this. As you can plainly see by the responses here, many players have characters with cosmetic wings that don't fly. So much for your attempt to make up statistics. |
This example is not a valid one. Yes, there are species of birds which have wings but cannot fly. But 99% of people who make characters with wings intend them to be able to fly. Ergo it falls under the same heading as "My character is *blah* and doesn't need to breath." |
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| No it isn't like telling a speedster to take teleport. |
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| by the logic of "My robot shouldn't have to take a power to breath under water." My zombie shouldn't have to take a power to stand back up after it's been knocked around. |
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| What you are arguing for is for absolutely every character in the game to be given a super power, whether they want it or not, absolutely free. |
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| Fine, I want every character in the game to be able to see through walls! |
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| The game "assumes" you are human. |
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It absolutely does not. Just the speed of health regeneration alone is proof that the game assumes you are more than human.
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Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
*It tends to assume you are a human, from the current time frame, from the current universe, unfamiliar with temporal or dimensional travel, with all the standard needs of a human.
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I'd agree the game doesn't assume you're human (see I can agree with you Eiko 
), the Kheldians are proof of that. The players are the ones that assume whatever it is you want to assume. Outside of my Kheldian I have a toon that's alien (Psi-Vox). In his description I mention him coming from a different world and why he's here. His origin is natural, because on his planet what he does is normal, much the same as Martian Manhunter.
I have another toon who is a future version of one of my other toons. Obviously that would make him from a different time frame, and according to his story (*shamless plug to play my arc*) if he's successful in his mission that would make him from a different universe and by extension would mean he's familiar with temporal/dimensional travel.
It's all what you make of it. You can write your description when you create your toon, you can RP it in your head, whatever you want. The contacts in the game might assume such things based on dialog, but that's only because there isn't a system to differentiate what each player writes for thier unique stories. And if you want an RP in my head reason for the contacts, they see and deal with so many heroes/villains on a day to day basis do you really think they can keep track of all their stories? No, they just talk to one as they talk to others, and they talk to you like you are a native of the area because there you are.
50s - Energyman, Elec^3 Blaster - Light Bringer Prime, Triform PB - OxyStorm, Robo/Storm/Mace MM - Widow Lotone, NW - Psi-Vox, Ill/FF/Earth Control
I've found another place where you can swim underwater in the game, its on the Midnighter Mission, Meet with Lady Jane. (Its in the room with the chest, you have to take her to).
Aw, that was thoughtful of you. You took your shirt off before you dove in so your super-butler wouldn't have to have it dry-cleaned when you got back to the crimecave.
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I want to see this with the new graphics |
Originally Posted by Charming_Rogue_EU
I've found another place where you can swim underwater in the game, its on the Midnighter Mission, Meet with Lady Jane. (Its in the room with the chest, you have to take her to).
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
What the...?
I was in a mission in Cimerora, one of Sister Airla's missions, and there was a bit just like that. Fully submerged character. Only thing was I was walking on the bottom. No swimming, just walking.
I might need to check that out...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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He looks like he's in the standard Fly pose.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I was in a mission in Cimerora, one of Sister Airla's missions, and there was a bit just like that. Fully submerged character. Only thing was I was walking on the bottom. No swimming, just walking.
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They added swimmable water in the new Cimeroran maps when they introduced those. I didn't think to mention it as I figured that was common knowledge by now. This swimmable water is evidence enough, to me at least, that having an underwater zone in City of Heroes is anywhere between a LONG way away and never.
The one good thing about the water is the visual effects. Draw distance drops significantly, fog changes colour to bluish (Why is water always drawn in Nuka Cola Quantum blue? It's not blue, it's clear!). I think there may or may bot be a distortion effect. The problem is that this draw distance and fog change extends above water, as well, so if you're swimming near the surface, the air above looks really thick and blue. If you manage to force your camera out of the water, it's even more bizarre. But when you're completely under, it looks pretty good.
The rest, though, is bad. You swim, yes, but in name only. In practice, you run along the bottom while emoting a swim. And it's not a particularly good swim, either. Our old swimming animation is terrible, it runs in fits and starts, it doesn't rotate well and it's designed for swimming at the surface. It doesn't pan vertically, either - you're always stuck in a horizontal swimming orientation, because you're not swimming at all. You're running on the bottom. Hell, you can JUMP. I've not tested how powers work underwater, because I've never thought to pull the Cimeroran Traitors, dive after them and try. I DO know, however, that they run - literally run - along the bottom when they move around.
This isn't water. It's a blue-tinted hole. And water isn't even blue!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I have to admit the more and more I read Sam's point of view, the more I agree with everything he's saying about the problems with how the powers would work underwater.
Take Hurricane and Tornado for example. If they did work underwater wouldn't they pull things towards them instead of pushing them away because if used underwater they'd be creating whirlpools?
How do you throw a grenade? Caltrops?
Wouldn't someone entrapped in a block of ice float to the surface?
Wouldn't fire imps get suffocated (put out) underwater?
The list goes on and on.
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I'll take this point by point.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I have to admit the more and more I read Sam's point of view, the more I agree with everything he's saying about the problems with how the powers would work underwater.
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| Take Hurricane and Tornado for example. If they did work underwater wouldn't they pull things towards them instead of pushing them away because if used underwater they'd be creating whirlpools? |
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| How do you throw a grenade? Caltrops? |
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| Wouldn't someone entrapped in a block of ice float to the surface? |
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| Wouldn't fire imps get suffocated (put out) underwater? |
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| The list goes on and on. |
As for the problem of breathing underwater...
I'm Batman. I can breathe in space.
Formerly known as Stormy_D
How do you control wind underwater? Storm Summoning is an air control power. Same problem in outer space. You can't summon hurricanes, tornados, etc in a vaccuum.
The actual water power set had its named changed by the devs to Energy Blast when the game was still in development.
Ink grenades. That would be a completely new power. Smoke is a gas while ink is a liquid.
As for breathimg underwater that was already resolved. Just add a line of text to everyones list of automatic powers that says breath underwater. Since we can already breath underwater nothing more needs to be changed.
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See, as I said before, it IS possible to fudge it by providing underwater alternatives to overland powers. The problem with that is that most, if not ALL powers, would need to have new graphics added to them. And not just new colours, I mean brand new sprite effects, models and, sometimes, even animations. A smoke grenade in air creates a rapidly-expanding, rising cloud of smoke. An ink-grenade in water creates a slower-moving blotch of ink which expands via omni-directional tendrils and tends to float in place, slowly sinking over time. Just slapping smoke as you see in air into an underwater environment is a GREAT way to make it feel like a suspiciously blue cave. You need new graphics, and those have been at a premium.|
Originally Posted by Autonomous Prime
I'll take this point by point.
Just spin the OTHER way. Simple. Use the ones you designed for underwater combat(for instance replacing smoke grenades with ink grenades). Same for any other technical equipment or weapons you use. Use Heavy Water for your ice powers. Augment them with underwater flares. And other fire abilities still give off a lot of heat. Alright. Control plants of the sea instead of bringing down land-based greenery, put your chemical doses in pouches, use an underwater microphone(go with a high-end model), train in a swimming pool before using your martial arts or weapon prowess in a real aquatic battle. As for the problem of breathing underwater... I'm Batman. I can breathe in space. |
Again - if it can be made to look right, with powers having the proper animations, then I can't really argue against it since this is my problem. However, that's a big IF.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I like this ALOT! But I would change the temp power to a breathing apparatus/diving gear. Like the jetpack. Sell it.. and / or make it a recipe we can buy and make.
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Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
No need? Maybe.
Would it be cool to have? yes. Would it be positively stupid to give everyone the ability to breath under water? Absolutely. Single power pool: Passive that added the ability to breathe under water, as well as another minor buff (to make it useful when not underwater) Passive that increased swim speed and run speed a swim travel power, which would have a low endurance cost, and in combat offer mez protection. Could only be active in water. A leadership style power which grants all nearby allies the first power in the pool. And have NPC vendors who will sell a temp toggle which allows water breathing, and a slightly increased swim speed. |
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Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
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Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
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People don't get violently knocked back when hit with a rifle round, Polonium Irradiation would actually be quite unhealthy, and if Impervium were indeed the hardest metal in the known universe, it would in actuality be quite brittle. What's your point?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
A smoke grenade in air creates a rapidly-expanding, rising cloud of smoke. An ink-grenade in water creates a slower-moving blotch of ink which expands via omni-directional tendrils and tends to float in place, slowly sinking over time.
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Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
I like this ALOT! But I would change the temp power to a breathing apparatus/diving gear. Like the jetpack. Sell it.. and / or make it a recipe we can buy and make.
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Formerly known as Stormy_D
However, Hurl Boulder just cannot work. It's not a question of needing a bottom (which in itself would take away from the point of an underwater zone, but eh), it's a question of how fast things can travel through water without creating shockwaves and experiencing severe drag. That's also why every underwater fight scene you see in movies that isn't completely CGI or cartoon is slow and delayed - every motion in water experiences SIGNIFICANTLY more drag than in air, to the point of throwing large objects at speed is simply out of the question. There's a reason why supersonic bullets shatter into metal shavings upon impacting water.
And again - it's a question of looking right. Having your fire burn bright and big and flickering in water the same as it does in air would look so bad it's impossible to describe. Even the GI Joe move, which kicks any sort of believability on the *** 10 minutes into the movie, still has underwater explosions produce boiling clouds of bubbling steam, not just fire burning while surrounded by water. You can't get away with the "invisible bullets" that guns use in air. In water, you NEED bullet trails even if they can shoot as far and hit as hard as they do in air. Electricity, on the other hand, is practically invisible in water, and that's making a massive assumption that you can aim it at all. Fire would need to sizzle and bubble. Explosions would need to appear and sound different.
There are a LOT of things that don't look or act in water as they do in air. Making them act the same with just the tint of water is BAD and would make a really crappy, unappealing zone. If we want an underwater zone, we need a zone that looks, feels and plays underwater, not large cave that's sort of blue-ish and and you can fly inside it.