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It's not about what's realistic. It's about what looks good. Fire underwater does not look good. It looks silly. Hurling boulders underwater does not look good. It looks silly. And, again, HOW do you envision something like Steamy Mist, Hurricane or Freezing Rain happening underwater? What about Storm Cloud? How do you foresee Mud Pots or Brimstone Armour working? How about Electrical Armour? Do you realise that if you do NOTHING and just plop those sets underwater with the exact same effects, the result would be ugly as sin?|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Sam please forgive me if I find your position humerous. I will agree with you 100 percent about the sci-fi perspective because there we want to believe it could actually happen, but when you apply it to the super hero genre it's funny. The natural laws of physics don't apply in this genre, and I'm not talking about the powers themselves but how they get used. We've seen comics/cartoons/etc. where a hero rescues/lifts/carries/flies an ocean liner, super tanker, toppling building and they don't collapse/tear apart at the stress points like they would in the real world. Or a giant crevasse appears during an earthquake and the hero grabs the ground and pushes the earth back together then welds the ground shut with his heat vision.
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Let me restate: This isn't about realism. This is about appeal. And certain things just DO NOT LOOK GOOD when done underwater. If I'm going to have a zone where I have to continually remind myself is actually underwater even though it doesn't feel like that in the slightest, then why even have a water zone? Champions' underwater locations that I saw didn't look underwater at all. They looked like a caves I could float inside. It takes more than just calling it underwater and enabling everyone to swim to make an underwater zone.
Also, remember how much we DON'T have. We have ONE swimming animation that only goes forward. We have no swim up, no swim down, no strafing. It's just horizontal movement. All of our powers are designed to work in air and on dry land, so you see wind, you see powers that kick up dust, you slow-burning fire, you see fast, energetic swings that display no drag, we hurl a lot of things with no feel of resistance. Put these things underwater, and you get something which is UGLY.
One of the reasons I like City of Heroes is because it is visually refined. Animations feel natural, to a large extent, motions are mostly fluid and force and impact are almost tangible. Effects look appropriate, and that matters a great deal. The only way for those effects to look appropriate underwater is for them to have custom swimming variants, which I plain don't see happening. But again, if you're talking about just making a free-flight zone with a blue tint and a short draw distance, then I can tell you here and now - such a thing would NOT look good.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Much of the game doesn't weigh one decision over the other. You can fly. Why can you fly? Who cares? Don't have a reason to fly? Easy! DON'T fly! Problem solved.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Why should I have to sacrifice a power selection (and a pool selection) just to "realistically" depict a character wearing a self-contained powersuit? Or being undead? Or alien? Or Aquaman (well, okay, Aquaman has power selections to spare, he's useless)?
So much in this game is left to the player to decide - why does your character fly, how does she shoot fire blasts, where does her power over radiation come from - so why do you find breathing underwater to be the line drawn in the sand? |
This... Doesn't quite work underwater. You can breath underwater. Why can you breath underwater? Don't have a reason to be able to do that? Well, you're gonna' need one. 'Cause, you know, you CAN breath underwater no matter what you do, so you better get 'a-thinkin' and come up with something good.
The only thing the game requires, conceptually, is an excuse why I can fight against the enemies I do, which a lot of the time is written in the powersets you pick. However, it never forces secondary super powers. You're never forced to fly if you don't want to, you're never force to jump if you don't want to, you're never force to be stealthy if you're an extremely obvious ninja. I wouldn't really appreciate being forced to always be able to breath underwater as part of a character concept.
Granted, I could live with a power which gives us underwater breathing, be it through magical or technological means. We'd probably want a full set of scuba gear costume pieces for that one to work for everybody, but I can live with this.
Even with that, though, we still have the problem of motion feeling right underwater, and all the power elements and effects. If it can be done RIGHT and made to feel right, then I'd be right there with you guys, cheering for it. I'm not sure it's possible, and I highly doubt the concentrated effort to make it right is something the guys at Paragon Studios would want to commit to for just one zone.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Unless, of course, you pick the Stalker AT.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
you're never force to be stealthy if you're an extremely obvious ninja.
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Which I'm not forced to do. Unlike underwater breathing, which would apply to every character ever made of every AT, origin and powerset combination.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Unless, of course, you pick the Stalker AT.
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If you wanted an actual parallel, you could compare that to the implied ability of every character to survive on Earth. This means that, no matter where you come from, you have some way of tolerating Earth's atmosphere chemistry, air pressure, gravity and temperature. This IS mandated on all characters in order for them to even exist in the game, but unlike an underwater zone, this is an easy sell. Having a game take place on Earth, in breathable air, in comfortable temperatures and at regular pressure and gravity is more or less the status quo. That's what the game is.
Adding one single zone that's very much everything the game ISN'T is not quite as easy a sell. I'm certainly not going to buy it without something to convince me, and "Well, why not?" just doesn't cut it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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To be fair, if you're an extremely obvious ninja, you're not doing it right.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
you're never force to be stealthy if you're an extremely obvious ninja.
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(I know what you meant, I just really like the phrase "extremely obvious ninja".
)
I was actually going for highly visible ninja but I completely forgot how the term went. As it turns out, I made up "extremely obvious ninja" completely by accident...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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My apologies. I thought you were addressing the problem with the physics. Focusing on appearances alone, you are absolutely correct things will not look good.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's not about what's realistic. It's about what looks good. Fire underwater does not look good. It looks silly. Hurling boulders underwater does not look good. It looks silly. And, again, HOW do you envision something like Steamy Mist, Hurricane or Freezing Rain happening underwater? What about Storm Cloud? How do you foresee Mud Pots or Brimstone Armour working? How about Electrical Armour? Do you realise that if you do NOTHING and just plop those sets underwater with the exact same effects, the result would be ugly as sin?
Let me restate: This isn't about realism. This is about appeal. And certain things just DO NOT LOOK GOOD when done underwater. If I'm going to have a zone where I have to continually remind myself is actually underwater even though it doesn't feel like that in the slightest, then why even have a water zone? Champions' underwater locations that I saw didn't look underwater at all. They looked like a caves I could float inside. It takes more than just calling it underwater and enabling everyone to swim to make an underwater zone. Also, remember how much we DON'T have. We have ONE swimming animation that only goes forward. We have no swim up, no swim down, no strafing. It's just horizontal movement. All of our powers are designed to work in air and on dry land, so you see wind, you see powers that kick up dust, you slow-burning fire, you see fast, energetic swings that display no drag, we hurl a lot of things with no feel of resistance. Put these things underwater, and you get something which is UGLY. One of the reasons I like City of Heroes is because it is visually refined. Animations feel natural, to a large extent, motions are mostly fluid and force and impact are almost tangible. Effects look appropriate, and that matters a great deal. The only way for those effects to look appropriate underwater is for them to have custom swimming variants, which I plain don't see happening. But again, if you're talking about just making a free-flight zone with a blue tint and a short draw distance, then I can tell you here and now - such a thing would NOT look good. |
Dungeon and Dragons Online has some believable underwater effects and swimming animations (it ignores the type of armor being worn tho) however powers/spells can't be cast underwater. Living creatures have a counter to measure holding their breathe and a character drowns if it reaches zero. It also distinguishes between character races that breathe and those that don't. If a race doesn't breathe it can stay underwater indefinitely.
Oblivion is another that handles it fairly well (Engaging armourhandwave.exe)
Breath meter and all that, melee weapons only. Well, you CAN fire a bow down there...but the range is so abysmal it might as well be a melee weapon.
Its dark down their. MURKY. There are fish, with TEETH. Oh, and spells dont work. And, unless your an Argonian (reptile type) you need to surface for air.
If you happen to be a lizard person, you can of course give yourself the heebeejeebees as much as you like 
Would rather see more important things like, I dunno, revamped hero zones, fixed bugs and stuff, before this.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Your example is fail.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Why should I have to sacrifice a power selection (and a pool selection) just to "realistically" depict a character wearing a self-contained powersuit? Or being undead? Or alien? Or Aquaman (well, okay, Aquaman has power selections to spare, he's useless)?
So much in this game is left to the player to decide - why does your character fly, how does she shoot fire blasts, where does her power over radiation come from - so why do you find breathing underwater to be the line drawn in the sand? |
why?
Every. Single. Thing. you used as an example, is something which is.. >.> <.<
Wait for it...
A power.
Chosen by the player.
Ergo, you actually MADE my point, instead of proving it wrong.
It's not that I think there needs to be a pre-determined "reason" for breathing under water, just that, like all the other super powers, it should be a choice.
Imagine if every character in the game had the exact same powers as Superman, the only difference between them was why Character A has super strength etc, and why character B has it.
If concept is important enough for you to go "I have to be able to breath underwater without getting a temporary power!" then you bloody well make room in your build for the pool power.
If you feel you shouldn't have to take a pool power to fit your concept..
Okay, well, my character concept requires her to fly, regenerate super fast, never tire and be inspiring to her allies and be super tough and move super fast and be able to be invisible.
So, since they fit my concept, I shouldn't have to take power pools to make it work, right?
(Pools listed: Flight, Fitness, Leadership, Super Speed, Stealth and Fighting
)
Primary difference, ToySoldier: Breathing underwater confers no mechanical benefit.
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Apart from not drowning to death in the hypothetical fully-underwater zone.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Primary difference, ToySoldier: Breathing underwater confers no mechanical benefit.
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... I think the thread has just come full circle.
They'll have to have an NPC who sells aqualungs to the PCs that don't have water breathing, like the guy who sells Raptor Packs to the people who can't fly in the Shadow Shard.
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But you compared it to powers, which the players choose, which do provide a mechanical benefit. Likening it to them, expressing that players did not need to have a reason why they had them, leading to players not needing to have a reason to have water breathing, which you somehow linked to not needing to have a power to do it.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Primary difference, ToySoldier: Breathing underwater confers no mechanical benefit.
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As for the mechanical benefit. When you factor a water zone, it offers just as much mechanical benefit as flight. Especially if you do as I expressed should be done, and give the water breathing passive a mechanical bonus on it that makes it worth having even on land. (Perhaps a minor mez protection or the like?)
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No actually your argument fails. You have not been able to address why a character that isn't "alive"/and or "doesn't breathe" needs to be able to breathe underwater.|
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
Your example is fail.
why? Every. Single. Thing. you used as an example, is something which is.. >.> <.< Wait for it... A power. Chosen by the player. Ergo, you actually MADE my point, instead of proving it wrong. It's not that I think there needs to be a pre-determined "reason" for breathing under water, just that, like all the other super powers, it should be a choice. Imagine if every character in the game had the exact same powers as Superman, the only difference between them was why Character A has super strength etc, and why character B has it. If concept is important enough for you to go "I have to be able to breath underwater without getting a temporary power!" then you bloody well make room in your build for the pool power. If you feel you shouldn't have to take a pool power to fit your concept.. Okay, well, my character concept requires her to fly, regenerate super fast, never tire and be inspiring to her allies and be super tough and move super fast and be able to be invisible. So, since they fit my concept, I shouldn't have to take power pools to make it work, right? (Pools listed: Flight, Fitness, Leadership, Super Speed, Stealth and Fighting ) |
The smart thing for the devs to do would be to create a new inherent power and give it to everyone like brawl, sprint, and rest. They can make it a power like the Oro Portal in that gets permanently awarded when you first go to the zone and it can't be slotted.
That way everyone is happy. No one has to give up a powerslot and the people who only make characters that have lungs and breathe oxygen will have a power that lets them function underwater.
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Well, clearly the thing to do is approach it from the other direction. The power those characters need to have isn't actually "water breathing", it's what the old Marvel Super Heroes game called "Life Support". Maybe that means they don't need to breathe at all; maybe it means their superhero rig already contains a means of sustaining life in a hostile environment; doesn't matter. That's tinsel; what matters is that, for whatever reason, the character can survive in that environment where a normal person couldn't. (Sounds like a fifth option for the Fitness pool to me, the way they recently added another power to the Ancillary Pools.) Under those mechanics, if you've got a robot character and it doesn't need to breathe, well, better find a spot for Life Support in his payload, or avoid going to places where it'd become an issue. I don't really see it as very different, mechanically, from going to the Shadow Shard if you can't fly.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
No actually your argument fails. You have not been able to address why a character that isn't "alive"/and or "doesn't breathe" needs to be able to breathe underwater.
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For those that can't, like I said, there's always the "NPC sells a temp power to cover the gap" option - again, taking the Shard as an example of a nonstandard environment that's covered in this fashion. Not everyone can fly before they get there, but they're pretty well beached without it once they arrive. The same would be true of Life Support in an underwater (or outer space) zone.
The problem is that it's a bit late to be imposing this mechanic on players retroactively; you'd get a lot of pushback from people who've had a robot for years and suddenly are expected to take this power to make their concept work properly. Kind of like how I feel about those people who say "OMG nerf Knockback and then make Energy Blasters who want their powers to keep working properly blow slots building it back up."
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Well, clearly the thing to do is approach it from the other direction. The power those characters need to have isn't actually "water breathing", it's what the old Marvel Super Heroes game called "Life Support". Maybe that means they don't need to breathe at all; maybe it means their superhero rig already contains a means of sustaining life in a hostile environment; doesn't matter. That's tinsel; what matters is that, for whatever reason, the character can survive in that environment where a normal person couldn't. (Sounds like a fifth option for the Fitness pool to me, the way they recently added another power to the Ancillary Pools.) Under those mechanics, if you've got a robot character and it doesn't need to breathe, well, better find a spot for Life Support in his payload, or avoid going to places where it'd become an issue. I don't really see it as very different, mechanically, from going to the Shadow Shard if you can't fly.
For those that can't, like I said, there's always the "NPC sells a temp power to cover the gap" option - again, taking the Shard as an example of a nonstandard environment that's covered in this fashion. Not everyone can fly before they get there, but they're pretty well beached without it once they arrive. The same would be true of Life Support in an underwater (or outer space) zone. The problem is that it's a bit late to be imposing this mechanic on players retroactively; you'd get a lot of pushback from people who've had a robot for years and suddenly are expected to take this power to make their concept work properly. Kind of like how I feel about those people who say "OMG nerf Knockback and then make Energy Blasters who want their powers to keep working properly blow slots building it back up." |
That's why I suggested they should make a new power that players get when they first enter the underwater zone. Do it like they did with the Oro Portal. They can make it an inherent power that can't be slotted, and it's always active. We already have plenty of powers that can't be slotted and others that are constantly on.
OR
They could make a new Accolade that gives the player the ability to breathe underwater. We already have several accolades that give rewards that players use in game.
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For the same reason that a character with wings has to take a power to be able to fly. Or the character with metal skin has to choose a protective power so bullets "bounce off them". Or that undead characters can get knocked out, and have to either choose a certain power set (or carry around wakies) to be able to stand back up after they've gotten knocked down. For the same reason that a robot even HAS endurance.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
No actually your argument fails. You have not been able to address why a character that isn't "alive"/and or "doesn't breathe" needs to be able to breathe underwater.
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If you want you can change it to say "survive indefinitely under water", but "Water Breathing" is just an easier catch all term that is usually accepted.
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Why would you assume that just because something has wings it can fly? |
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
For the same reason that a character with wings has to take a power to be able to fly.
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Kiwis, Penguins, the Falkland Flightless Duck, Ostrich, Emu, Rheas, Cassowaries, Flightless Comorants, Snoring Rail, Campbell Island Teal, the Kakapo Parrot, Dodo (extinct), elephant bird (extinct), Terror birds (extinct)
These are several species of birds that can't fly, so why would it be different for hero/villain?
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| Or the character with metal skin has to choose a protective power so bullets "bounce off them". |
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| Or that undead characters can get knocked out, and have to either choose a certain power set (or carry around wakies) to be able to stand back up after they've gotten knocked down. |
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| For the same reason that a robot even HAS endurance. |
Endurance is only here for game balance and the devs have openly stated that they would get rid of it entirely if they had their druthers.
Edit: Had Kiwis listed twice.
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See, this I like. I'm not sure I'd like it in terms of playstyle, but I'm pretty sure I'd like the atmosphere and ambience if that's how things go. That sort of thing is what games with underwater elements use to make these elements interesting. Tomb Raider had limited air supply and no weapons aside from the unreliable harpoon. Half-Life had limited air and only handgun and crossbow. Red Faction DID have unlimited air, but then the guy protagonist was in an environment that didn't have breathable air in the first place, so that made sense. These environments were restrictive, yes, but they were COOL because of it.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Dungeon and Dragons Online has some believable underwater effects and swimming animations (it ignores the type of armor being worn tho) however powers/spells can't be cast underwater. Living creatures have a counter to measure holding their breathe and a character drowns if it reaches zero. It also distinguishes between character races that breathe and those that don't. If a race doesn't breathe it can stay underwater indefinitely.
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| That's why I suggested they should make a new power that players get when they first enter the underwater zone. Do it like they did with the Oro Portal. They can make it an inherent power that can't be slotted, and it's always active. We already have plenty of powers that can't be slotted and others that are constantly on. |
But, again, that solves the problem with air. The problem with powers isn't something that we can solve as easily. It probably CAN be solved, but I just don't see the effort I'd envision it requiring ever being justifiable.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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^ This|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Why would you assume that just because something has wings it can fly?
Kiwis, Penguins, the Falkland Flightless Duck, Ostrich, Emu, Rheas, Cassowaries, Flightless Comorants, Kiwis, Snoring Rail, Campbell Island Teal, the Kakapo Parrot, Dodo (extinct), elephant bird (extinct), Terror birds (extinct) These are several species of birds that can't fly, so why would it be different for hero/villain? And what does this have to do with a robot,energy being, etc that doesn't have lungs being forced to breathe? That's like telling a speedster that he has to take teleport in order to run fast. It doesn't make sense. Everything has a weakness. Even superman can get knocked out or stunned if the force of the impact is powerful enough. and this still doesn't address the issue that some types of characters don't breathe. For a living being endurance represents exhaustion. For an artificial life form it represents power reserves. Capacitors, etc need to recharge before it can use it's powers again. Endurance is only here for game balance and the devs have openly stated that they would get rid of it entirely if they had their druthers. |
If Underwater ever is implemented, leave the details up to the characters and the players.
Forcing them to pick a power, even if it's a temp, just to swim, is so much BS it's unbelievable.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Not to mention the zone has(had) so many problems I would almost rather grind than quest there.. God I hated that place.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm still not a fan of the idea. It just imposes far too many limitation and ignoring those limitations makes it just patently silly. Fire underwater, electricity underwater, freezing rain underwater, hurl boulder underwater... The list goes on. I don't want to get into it, but I just don't see it working.
And, yes, I've seen what Champions Online did with this. They landed right in the middle of the bullseye of "SILLY!!!" |
Travel for 10 seconds, get rubber banded for 5.. Travel for 10 more, get rubber banded again! They also felt the need to include like two dozen escort missions, which were all very failable due to said rubber band issues.. arg!
"Arg I failed because of lags!!"
*Goes back to starting point, see 5 other people*
"Hey lets team for this"
*No reply*
*Races the 5 mutes to the quest NPC, loses, has to wait another 10 minutes while the other guy fails and comes back*
Man...
I must say that I forgot what public forums could be like since the Wizkids forums went dark.
First, thanks to all of those who replied to the intent of the post and desire.
Second, why does this desire for inclusion have to be a "vote"? We're just talking here. Just because you might want something more doesn't mean that my wish is any less valid. I hope you all get what you want in the game AND I hope that I get what I want in the game.
Third, to the people that said this is a superhero game and to leave the "reality" out of it...THANK YOU!!! Reed Richards created an "oxygen net" so that the Human Torch could use his fire powers underwater for goodness sakes! Clearly even the masters "just want it to happen" at times. Personally, I like the little write-up that Heroclix put on their space map. Everyone is assumed to have oxygen suits and maneuver packs for this map. That's paraphrasing, but the intent is, it doesn't matter how the characters acquired the means to be in the environment, THAT's where the battle is.
Fourth, to all of those who are saying that this idea doesn't belong in the game...I'm confused. This is a superhero game, right? Hmmm...Aquaman, Mera, Dolphin, Tempest, Namor, Namorita, Torpedo, Fathom, Tigershark, The Shark, Stingray, etc., etc., etc... Not to mention characters that I've made for superhero RPG's that were water-themed. Sure, aquatic environments don't make up the majority of superhero comics, but they've had some major players in the past and some of us want to pay tribute to that. Someone doesn't like Aquaman...that's cool, but I do. What's wrong with a superstrong, supertough, character that can also breath underwater and swim at incredible speeds and depths? Not to mention a character that also rules 75% of the planet Earth at times. Maybe Aquaman pales in comparison when standing next to Superman and Wonder Woman, but most characters in the DCU do as well. Oh well, that's a fanboy discussion and not the intent of this thread.
The point was that there is more than enough room for aquatic superheroes in this game if the developers can work it out. By working it out, I do mean being able to handle the graphics for the environment. I definitely want underwater activities and movement to look and feel different than land and air travel. However, I'm not going to balk at fire powers and such working underwater. I'll live and enjoy the game while doing it. For crying out loud, if we wanted to start discussing physics and realism we could spend countless posts theorizing if a "fire" superhero is even really creating REAL fire. Maybe it's somekind of magic or psionic potential, etc., etc., etc...my brain hurts... It just works. That's enough for me.
So to restate my original post and wish:
I hope the developers can find a cool way to include underwater aspects to the game and maybe open up some new zones...maybe even a new starting location for this theme.
As to the couple of areas that some of the earlier posters mentioned where there is some limited underwater activity. I honestly have not experienced those areas. I've been playing CoH for 4 years now and I still have a LOT to learn!
One of the many things I love about the game.
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I prefer my idea, auto buff that says you got magiced on entry. Hell if we have allies down there they could auto magic all heroes who enter their realm so they can get support. The people they are fighting extend the same courtesy to villains.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Apart from not drowning to death in the hypothetical fully-underwater zone.
... I think the thread has just come full circle. They'll have to have an NPC who sells aqualungs to the PCs that don't have water breathing, like the guy who sells Raptor Packs to the people who can't fly in the Shadow Shard. |
I'm all for an underwater zone. As people have mentioned it's very fitting with the super hero theme thanks to Aquaman, Namor, heck I think every comic world has at least one water based hero. Personally I like the "magiced" idea for how you breath underwater. Just have a starting underwater base area you get to by sub, get magiced, then go through an air lock and out you go. I'm sure a zone like this would take a lot of work, but it would be neat.
As for powers that don't work underwater, we've seen Superman use heat vision underwater without much complaint. Hurl boulder would be fine if there was a sea floor/cliff/Atlantian road you were near. Water is a good conductor of electricity and for the life of me I've never understood why thowing water on an electric based hero hurts them when they use thier powers, yet most other heroes are immune to their own powers. You don't see a fire based hero getting hurt if they walk into a burning building. Sure some of the powers would look odd, but since you're "magiced" on entering the zone that's one way to explain it. Add in power customization and not all fire is actually "fire" conceptually anymore.
50s - Energyman, Elec^3 Blaster - Light Bringer Prime, Triform PB - OxyStorm, Robo/Storm/Mace MM - Widow Lotone, NW - Psi-Vox, Ill/FF/Earth Control
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Originally Posted by PeregrineAlpha
Man...
I must say that I forgot what public forums could be like since the Wizkids forums went dark. First, thanks to all of those who replied to the intent of the post and desire. Second, why does this desire for inclusion have to be a "vote"? We're just talking here. Just because you might want something more doesn't mean that my wish is any less valid. I hope you all get what you want in the game AND I hope that I get what I want in the game. Third, to the people that said this is a superhero game and to leave the "reality" out of it...THANK YOU!!! Reed Richards created an "oxygen net" so that the Human Torch could use his fire powers underwater for goodness sakes! Clearly even the masters "just want it to happen" at times. Personally, I like the little write-up that Heroclix put on their space map. Everyone is assumed to have oxygen suits and maneuver packs for this map. That's paraphrasing, but the intent is, it doesn't matter how the characters acquired the means to be in the environment, THAT's where the battle is. Fourth, to all of those who are saying that this idea doesn't belong in the game...I'm confused. This is a superhero game, right? Hmmm...Aquaman, Mera, Dolphin, Tempest, Namor, Namorita, Torpedo, Fathom, Tigershark, The Shark, Stingray, etc., etc., etc... Not to mention characters that I've made for superhero RPG's that were water-themed. Sure, aquatic environments don't make up the majority of superhero comics, but they've had some major players in the past and some of us want to pay tribute to that. Someone doesn't like Aquaman...that's cool, but I do. What's wrong with a superstrong, supertough, character that can also breath underwater and swim at incredible speeds and depths? Not to mention a character that also rules 75% of the planet Earth at times. Maybe Aquaman pales in comparison when standing next to Superman and Wonder Woman, but most characters in the DCU do as well. Oh well, that's a fanboy discussion and not the intent of this thread. The point was that there is more than enough room for aquatic superheroes in this game if the developers can work it out. By working it out, I do mean being able to handle the graphics for the environment. I definitely want underwater activities and movement to look and feel different than land and air travel. However, I'm not going to balk at fire powers and such working underwater. I'll live and enjoy the game while doing it. For crying out loud, if we wanted to start discussing physics and realism we could spend countless posts theorizing if a "fire" superhero is even really creating REAL fire. Maybe it's somekind of magic or psionic potential, etc., etc., etc...my brain hurts... It just works. That's enough for me. So to restate my original post and wish: I hope the developers can find a cool way to include underwater aspects to the game and maybe open up some new zones...maybe even a new starting location for this theme. As to the couple of areas that some of the earlier posters mentioned where there is some limited underwater activity. I honestly have not experienced those areas. I've been playing CoH for 4 years now and I still have a LOT to learn! One of the many things I love about the game. |
1. In an open forum any suggestion will turn into something that resembles a vote as people join in and voice their opinions. Some will be positive and others negative.
2. I think we need better swimming animations (especially underwater) rather than a swim powerset. Superspeed already lets us swim fast so a swim powerset seems to me to be unneeded. I'll pass on repeating my solution to breathing.
3. I hope someone can tell you where to find the pool in Grandville that gives you a little underwater experience. I know how to get there but I'm lousy at directions. The Cimerora pools I know of are in cave missions and you just have to jump in the water to find them.
4. Try not to get upset when we start bickering. You never know sometimes it can be funny and other times they might even give you an idea.
Also, I agree, Dead Space did space right.
Now, as for underwater, as cool as it might be, I'm going to have to side with Samuel Tow on this one. Not only would a number of powers break immersion (Rain of Fire, Thunderstorm, Caltrops), many Targeted Location powers would always be cast at maximum range, unless you are targeting a targetable terrain object (look at how Teleport works when a mile up and no buildings are around). Getting underwater to look and feel right would be a feat in and of itself, and then you have to deal with the powers.
However, if CoX added an underwater zone that felt wrong and did not take powers into consideration, I would accept it. I would avoid it, but I would accept it.
-= idspispopd =-
[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]