More heroic heroes, please
I see the problem. Escrima sticks certainly don't belong in Katana or Broadsword, but certainly in dual blades. Watch even a fraction of this and then tell me Escrima sticks belong in the mace set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH309YwzxsY And an older one showing that the techniques are interchangeable between sticks, axes and swords: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TtP4x-sRew Look how much more hair he has on this one! |
That said, I'm not opposed to a set that revolves around dual Escrima sticks, or just dual sticks altogether. Such a set might be a hard set, but I don't see a problem with it. I DO have a problem shoving a stick all the way through a person's torso, however. It looks silly and goofy, like those slasher movies where people get impaled on stupid things like chair legs, shovel handles, large pipes and other people's forearms.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Because they defined lethal damage as slashing and piercing, such as bullets, knives, and axes. Smashing damage is caused by blunt objects. They want to maintain this thematic separation. There is no rabbit hole here. This is not illogical.
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And why do they want to keep the thematic separation?
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To me, it's a question of animation more than anything as nebulous as damage type. Take our old friend the bokutō. It's quite plainly made of wood and has no cutting edge, and, as such, should (by your lights) never ever ever ever ever be made available as a skin for Katana. And fair enough. Except...
The problem there is that a bokutō is, by definition, a sword made of wood - the name literally means "wooden sword" - and is expected to be wielded in exactly the same way as the metal slashy-slashy version. The great samurai Miyamoto Musashi (1584?-1645) killed more than one of his dueling opponents that way during his career. The animations, as it were, are the same. If you were to take a bokutō and wield it like (e.g.) a War Mace, you would very much be Doing It Wrong. As you can see, this example leaves us at something of an impasse. Obviously, judged visually, such an item belongs with the Katana set. Obviously, judged by game mechanics, it has no business there. For myself, since I can see the power animations but the game mechanics happen behind a curtain, I'm going to go with A and leave B to go hang. A potentially inappropriate damage type is going to bother me a lot less - not at all, in fact, because I can't see it and frankly don't give a damn about that whole mechanism. |
Blunt force trauma? Or Actual slicing and dicing?
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No, it's completely logical. They don't want baseball bats doing lethal damage or swords doing smashing damage. This is coming down to you wanting them to do things differently, and trying to assign a faux-objective label to what amounts to nothing more than a difference of opinion.
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1) In game there really is no difference between smashing and lethal.
2) The already have blunt weapons in the dual blades set that do lethal damage (sais).
3) It's wanting to do things differently only to the degree that we all want more options. If we could get a set that looked exactly like dual blades, or broadswaord, etc, that used blunt weapons, and caused smashing damage, that'd be ideal. (Again, why differentiating smashing from lethal makes any difference, or is such a big deal given the rest of the games mechanics is beyond me, but...) Barring that, the skins solution would also be acceptable. Those that want more weapons get it, the devs save themselves a lot of time re-engineering almost identical powersets, and game balance isn't altered at all. The only people that have a problem with the 2nd, easier solution are people who, apparently can suspend their disbelief enough that people can fly and shoot lasers from their eyes, but will find it unbearably unrealistic if a stick hits someone and the combat window reports that "Joe hits for 7 points of lethal damage," even though this doesn't affect gameplay or balance at all. Oh, and the devs mind too, for reasons that almost nobody finds clear.
I just want to keep sets with "sword" and "blade" in the name using swords and/or bladed weapons. I'm willing to accept weapons that, in real life, don't cut but in-game sort of look like they do. I cannot, however, accept a weapon which CLEARLY doesn't cut put into a sword set and being stabbed through a man's chest. If it doesn't have a blade, it has no place being in a set about Dual Blades.
And why do they need to be, really? You already have a variety of basing sets, including a bashing weapon set. Why not put them in there? Why try bastardize sets that clearly don't fit the bill? It's like picking Assault Rifle and then asking for slingshots to be added as a weapon variant. I'm not against that as an attack set, but it has no business being jackhammered into Assault Rifle. Ask for new sets, by all means. But let's try to give the sets that already exist some meaning in being separate, defined sets. |
I know what Escrima Sticks look and act like, as I studied Wing Tsu/Escrima a while back (just barely studied, I'm still inept), but my point remains - they don't belong in Dual Blades. You don't cut people with them, you don't stab people with them. They belong in Dual Blades as much as dual axes and dual hammers do, e.i. not at all.
That said, I'm not opposed to a set that revolves around dual Escrima sticks, or just dual sticks altogether. Such a set might be a hard set, but I don't see a problem with it. I DO have a problem shoving a stick all the way through a person's torso, however. It looks silly and goofy, like those slasher movies where people get impaled on stupid things like chair legs, shovel handles, large pipes and other people's forearms. |
There is no power except for thorns/spines' impale where you are conclusively and unequivocally shoving something *through* someone. Every other move in dual blades can be explained off as an equivalent stick-based move. Heck because of the quirky engine, you can execute most melee animations from across the room if you time your jump right. THAT to me is much more "game breaking" than allowing those that want sticks, and are willing to ignore the word "lethal" in the combat window, to have their choice. Again, the secondary graphical effects are so kiddied-down (by necessity) that the little word in the combat window is your only realistic indicator that you're dealing with lethal damage.
Spending the time and money on making an exactly (or almost so) set that does smashing damage is not justified when a little skin will do. You may not like it. No one is saying you have to. Just like I don't like the rusty shovels and plumber's wrenches as "super-weapons", but I accept that some people do and if it makes them stick around the game longer, that far outweighs my personal tastes.
And again, a wooden sword is still a sword, and though it's a stretch, I can see it as an option for a slashing sword set. It may not be a sword in terms of function (it doesn't cut), but if it looks like a sword, swings like a sword and looks like it can cut, it's "sword enough."
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By comparison, an Escrima stick (or a club or a baseball bat, or a golf stick, etc.) is most decidedly NOT a sword. It doesn't look like a sword, it doesn't really swing like a sword, and there's no way in hell you can convince me it looks like it can cut. It's not a sword, and it has no business being in a sword set. Just in the same way as an axe doesn't belong in a sword set, a stick doesn't belong there, either.
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I agree for the most part, but I think I might more broadly apply the label of duck, and you more narrowly, but that's not a big deal. We've agreed that it should be doable, and the criterion be based on usage appearance. How much it needs to look like a duck,a nd how simialr the quack, well, we can leave that to the devs.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In a world full of super-powers, arcane mysticism, sci-fi technology, etc....very few people actually die die. The technology to instantly teleport someone and repair any and all damage to their bodies is common in this world. That goes for player characters and NPCs alike. When you riddle someone full of bullets, poke holes in them with your sword, or burn them, it doesn't immediately end their life. It simply incapacitates them. They slip into unconsciousness, and shortly thereafter they're transported away and revived...generally in the Zig.
They'll be fine. Why else do you think the city would be so cavalier about handing out licenses to everyone with a pair of spandex? Why do you think the common thugs on the street are so brazen about their crimes? There's very little fear of actual death. |
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Your statement would be correct, if the following weren't also true.
1) In game there really is no difference between smashing and lethal. |
My statement, btw, is correct.
2) The already have blunt weapons in the dual blades set that do lethal damage (sais). |
But there's still a world of difference between those and baseball bats.
3) It's wanting to do things differently only to the degree that we all want more options. If we could get a set that looked exactly like dual blades, or broadswaord, etc, that used blunt weapons, and caused smashing damage, that'd be ideal. (Again, why differentiating smashing from lethal makes any difference, or is such a big deal given the rest of the games mechanics is beyond me, but...) |
Barring that, the skins solution would also be acceptable. Those that want more weapons get it, the devs save themselves a lot of time re-engineering almost identical powersets, and game balance isn't altered at all. The only people that have a problem with the 2nd, easier solution are people who, apparently can suspend their disbelief enough that people can fly and shoot lasers from their eyes, but will find it unbearably unrealistic if a stick hits someone and the combat window reports that "Joe hits for 7 points of lethal damage," even though this doesn't affect gameplay or balance at all. Oh, and the devs mind too, for reasons that almost nobody finds clear. |
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Because that was the game design decision the devs made when they were deciding upon damage types - perhaps because they had situations in which they wanted mobs to be strong to lethal and weak to smashing or vice versa - something that exists in the game now. Robots, as mentioned earlier, and zombies tend to be weak to lethal damage.
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As a general rule of thumb, there exist two types of enemies with distinct physical resistances. Zombies are weak to swords and guns, but are strong against punches and hammers, and robots are strong against guns and swords, but weak to punches and hammers.
Generally speaking, soft targets are vulnerable to lethal damage. You can, thematically, hack off limbs, pierce easily and generally do a lot of damage. But because these soft targets feel no pain and don't rely on functioning internal organs, beating on them has little effect. Robots are the reverse. Hard targets in general are hard to pierce, as they're made of metal or stone, and your bullets and swords are likely to just bounce off. However, hitting hard targets hard with a lot of force can outright break them, which is why they're vulnerable to blunt force.
Frankly, I ENJOY having this thematic difference between the sets.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So, I think the cycle here is:
1. "We want blunt weapons that fit a set of animations to be applied regardless of damage type."
2. "Your blunt weapons doing the wrong type of damage would damage my suspension of disbelief. If you want your blunt weapons, request a new powerset instead."
1. "We do not want to request a new powerset because we believe that the effort required to create it means it is unlikely to see fruition, thus we are requesting a less labor-intensive alternative."
And then it cycles through again. It was very succinctly put by Captain Photon, as a clash of interests between mechanical and aesthetic. I do not think that it's reasonable (or that anyone asked) for players to be able to wield baseball bats as a Broadsword Scrapper. This was a request to get certain exotic blunt weapons into the game that would look awkward wielded as the catch-all smashing set, War Mace. These are too specialized to merit their own powerset, so the most likely way they would be included in the game is as a skin for a pre-existing powerset.
I fear we are reaching the end any of logical discourse here. Those that would be interested in wielding Escrima sticks or a wood katana will state it is reasonable to waive the stated restriction on visual-matching damage type so that these weapons may be added. Those that have little or no interest in wielding such weapons will cite the dev stated restriction and claim blunt weapons in the set as illogical.
Seems like the simplest way to sum this up is that no one is impolite enough yet to just post: 'You will never have Escrima Sticks in city of heroes, because the devs said so. Cry some more'.
. . . Lack of cohesion textdump go. There's meaning somewhere in this rant, but damned if I can find it.
I fear we are reaching the end any of logical discourse here. Those that would be interested in wielding Escrima sticks or a wood katana will state it is reasonable to waive the stated restriction on visual-matching damage type so that these weapons may be added. Those that have little or no interest in wielding such weapons will cite the dev stated restriction and claim blunt weapons in the set as illogical.
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As well, I'm not opposed to another "smashing weapon" set. The game has... Ugh, I don't know. Let's count them. Katana, Broadsword, Ninja Blade, Dual Blades, Battle Axe... So that's... Five cutting sets. At the same time, it has all of ONE bashing set, and even that's a carbon copy of Broadsword, pretty much. We're about due for another bashing set, most definitely.
Now... I'm not sure if I'd want that to be a martial arts set, myself. If we DO get a new bashing weapon set, I'd like it to be a two-handed giant hammer, wielded sort of like how the Carnival Strongmen wield theirs.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So, I think the cycle here is:
1. "We want blunt weapons that fit a set of animations to be applied regardless of damage type." 2. "Your blunt weapons doing the wrong type of damage would damage my suspension of disbelief. If you want your blunt weapons, request a new powerset instead." 1. "We do not want to request a new powerset because we believe that the effort required to create it means it is unlikely to see fruition, thus we are requesting a less labor-intensive alternative." And then it cycles through again. It was very succinctly put by Captain Photon, as a clash of interests between mechanical and aesthetic. I do not think that it's reasonable (or that anyone asked) for players to be able to wield baseball bats as a Broadsword Scrapper. This was a request to get certain exotic blunt weapons into the game that would look awkward wielded as the catch-all smashing set, War Mace. These are too specialized to merit their own powerset, so the most likely way they would be included in the game is as a skin for a pre-existing powerset. I fear we are reaching the end any of logical discourse here. Those that would be interested in wielding Escrima sticks or a wood katana will state it is reasonable to waive the stated restriction on visual-matching damage type so that these weapons may be added. Those that have little or no interest in wielding such weapons will cite the dev stated restriction and claim blunt weapons in the set as illogical. Seems like the simplest way to sum this up is that no one is impolite enough yet to just post: 'You will never have Escrima Sticks in city of heroes, because the devs said so. Cry some more'. . . . Lack of cohesion textdump go. There's meaning somewhere in this rant, but damned if I can find it. |
My own position on this is, pretty much, I'm happy with what we have. I'd be happy with more, and I'd be annoyed if they took any of it away. I'm not invested in, say, no smashing weapon skins for lethal powersets, but I do think that the people coming out with "The devs and posters who disagree with me are illogical because they disagree with me" need to chill it the hell out.
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I would love to see a staff set. Not especially because of the reasons for more heroic heroes. But because staffs are cool.
Personally, I had some thoughs about this when trying to make an assault rifle hero. It just didn't work for me. While I can justify using broadsword, fat blades(claws) and fire/fire.
Now, I don't think a hero with an assault rifle is automatically less heroic than a hero using deadly Martial Arts technique. It's the way how they approach it. It's a bit what Kyle Katarn said about using the Force: No Force Power is inherently good or evil, it's how you use them.(even though Luke reprimands you if you take to much "dark side" powers...anyway)
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I wonder how many people are going to make comments like that when BABs very clearly said "very few." As in, people do die, it's just that's very rare and very few actually die. Like Cyrus Thompson, like War Witch, like whoever that guy was that Ghost Widow killed with a sideways glance. People do die. Just very few do.
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I know Cyrus Oliver Thompson is in a flashback TF, but can't see a definite timeframe for it. And we can't assume that the flag flying from City Hall in the TF is made from Statesman's cape.
The hospital teleportation network was created from recovered rikti technology. This happened sometime during/after the 1st rikti invasion of 2004. So anyone 'killed' before that time could easily have been properly killed, dead-as-dead-can-be unless some other tech/magic/mutation/alien interference/wizard did it.
IIRC the teleport to Zig network was decsribed as a modification of the hospital teleportation network, and so certainly didn't precede the hospital network and may have come quite some time later.
I don't recall it being established at which point the hospital network wasr rolled out beyond Paragon, so presumably CoV entities (potentially including scrapyard) may have died since it was introduced to Paragon.
There's also the odd occasion where the hospital teleportation network is suppressed/breaks down.
Of course you shouldn't really worry about occasional hiccups with the hospital/Zig networks - or worry as much as you do about a perp dying from a heartattack from the sheer shock of being confronted by kid gloves-wearing hero...
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If we DO get a new bashing weapon set, I'd like it to be a two-handed giant hammer, wielded sort of like how the Carnival Strongmen wield theirs.
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Wielding a hammer and a shovel one handed like it does in Mace is a personal irritant of mine. That and on the Bane Spider power branch. All the powers are one handed, when we get to see the Wolf Spiders and Tac Ops at lower levels using maces two handed which, I feel at least, looks much better.
More options are good. Lay out the tributes, and pray to BaBs, the Almighty
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What are the timelines for many of these dead people?
I know Cyrus Oliver Thompson is in a flashback TF, but can't see a definite timeframe for it. And we can't assume that the flag flying from City Hall in the TF is made from Statesman's cape. The hospital teleportation network was created from recovered rikti technology. This happened sometime during/after the 1st rikti invasion of 2004. So anyone 'killed' before that time could easily have been properly killed, dead-as-dead-can-be unless some other tech/magic/mutation/alien interference/wizard did it. IIRC the teleport to Zig network was decsribed as a modification of the hospital teleportation network, and so certainly didn't precede the hospital network and may have come quite some time later. I don't recall it being established at which point the hospital network wasr rolled out beyond Paragon, so presumably CoV entities (potentially including scrapyard) may have died since it was introduced to Paragon. There's also the odd occasion where the hospital teleportation network is suppressed/breaks down. Of course you shouldn't really worry about occasional hiccups with the hospital/Zig networks - or worry as much as you do about a perp dying from a heartattack from the sheer shock of being confronted by kid gloves-wearing hero... |
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On the whole wooden sword=sword thing.
If you want wood swords to do lethal damage it needs an edge...so it's just a different material. We have a way to show different materials in game...it's called Weapon Customization!
So here is your lethal damage boken:
Now if you want a nice round edge boken like you normally see so you can have a nonlethal weapon you'll need a set that doesn't do lethal damage.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Personally, I'm fine with a wooden sword in Katana even if it doesn't have a visible sharpened edge. It's close enough to where I can look the other way and say "Eh, whatever." It still looks like a sword sufficiently well. It's no less odd than the rusty sword which doesn't have a blade at all. But that's where I draw the line - it has to resemble a sword, or cut and be handled like one.
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On the subject of frequency of death...
I think that people die a lot more often than BABs is giving the impression of.
As I understood it, the medical teleportation network is exclusively for heroes and special law enforcement agencies.
If, in fact, the threat of death was so very diminished, the whole idea of needing to protect citizens with such fervor that you'd don a costume and assume a secret identity would be almost laughable.
There are several missions where death is most certainly featured and a real threat if you're just a civilian. Like Vahzilok. Finding all those bodies in that mission where you get some influence for clicking each one doesn't point to a nice, safe haven when danger threatens civilians. There are at least 15 bodies in that mission. If you consider that that is typical for a Vahzilok operation...the numbers really begin to add up.
There are many more missions where dead people are prominently featured and there is no indication that they were ever a part of the medical teleportation system.
The truth is that if the world were truly so safe in COH, heroes would be out of a job for the most part. Why would you need to rush in and save a bunch of kidnapped scientists from the Clockwork, if the most that would happen to them is a near-death experience?
I love BABs and his work and presence on the forums. But I think he may have flubbed a bit on this one.
I think consulting Manticore on the lore side of things may be a better bet. But that's only IMHO...
By comparison, an Escrima stick (or a club or a baseball bat, or a golf stick, etc.) is most decidedly NOT a sword. It doesn't look like a sword, it doesn't really swing like a sword, and there's no way in hell you can convince me it looks like it can cut. It's not a sword, and it has no business being in a sword set. Just in the same way as an axe doesn't belong in a sword set, a stick doesn't belong there, either.
Really, in my eyes it comes down to an "if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck" argument. A wooden sword is a duck. A wooden club isn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH309YwzxsY
And an older one where he states that the techniques are interchangeable between sticks, axes and swords (see minute 2:35):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TtP4x-sRew
Look how much more hair he has on this one!