More heroic heroes, please
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-10-11 22:27 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Much win ^^
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Originally Posted by Scientist_16
Related aside: My Katana Scrapper has a macro'd taunt that quotes Sigfried from Soul Calibur upon victory. "I avoided your vitals. You'll live." |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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More choice in powersets and skins is always good - but 'til then there's imagination. You can come up with a rationale for any set being non-lethal if you don't trust the teleportation network.|
Originally Posted by Arnabas
Does anyone else think it might be nice to have new powersets that allow us to not kill opponents? Or am I in the minority, thinking that heroes don't need to kill?
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BTW I don't really hold that powersets with blades can't be given smashing skins and vice versa - surely the damage types have been slightly disjointed from the fx with power spectrum (still think it should have been going rouge).
Now you can have negative energy looking bright and cheery and normal energy looking dark and pretty darn negative. Is blue fire really fire? It could be some sort of mental illusion or spirit fire, but the damage type is still just 'fire'.
If that's possible I don't really see the issue with having wooden swords/batons/black puddings/tickling sticks available as skins for dual swords.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
In a world full of super-powers, arcane mysticism, sci-fi technology, etc....very few people actually die die. The technology to instantly teleport someone and repair any and all damage to their bodies is common in this world. That goes for player characters and NPCs alike.
[snip] There's very little fear of actual death. |
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Hmmmm..... You couldn't kill her at 6pm could you? I'll pick her up at the hospital doors on my way back home from work...
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Ridiculous? Actually, it is. It makes sense as the logical extension of an argument, but when it comes to physical damage, certain things just look silly. Weapons which are intended to cut and pierce need to LOOK like they can cut and pierce. While a wooden sword may sort of pass, a baseball bat would certainly NOT. Giving, say, a mallet or a frying pan to a sword set and letting you cut with that is no less ridiculous than giving a balloon animal sword to a sword set and letting you cut with THAT.|
Originally Posted by Scientist_16
Tsalorian weapons don't add energy damage to your attacks. An electrically crackling Warhammer wouldn't either. A flaming sword? Nope. Just straight Smethal damage. I think that having a wooden sword isn't THAT ridiculous.
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Some things you can ignore for the sake of the rule of cool, but they still need to make sense. I can see a weapon which sparks electricity not doing electrical damage, but because it's cool and because you can have electrical sparks that don't damage tissue, but I cannot see stabbing a person with a bowling ball, say.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Balloon weapons would need to be followed with imaginary weapons where no model is present but you still do damage.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Ridiculous? Actually, it is. It makes sense as the logical extension of an argument, but when it comes to physical damage, certain things just look silly. Weapons which are intended to cut and pierce need to LOOK like they can cut and pierce. While a wooden sword may sort of pass, a baseball bat would certainly NOT. Giving, say, a mallet or a frying pan to a sword set and letting you cut with that is no less ridiculous than giving a balloon animal sword to a sword set and letting you cut with THAT.
Some things you can ignore for the sake of the rule of cool, but they still need to make sense. I can see a weapon which sparks electricity not doing electrical damage, but because it's cool and because you can have electrical sparks that don't damage tissue, but I cannot see stabbing a person with a bowling ball, say. |
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Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker
Actually, I RP my main, a completely human hero (cept for a psychic ability to sense certain things but its very passive) has never taking down those dudes himself. He is only street thugs really. Sometimes taking out a single Rikti or something. He can go up against Outcasts and stuff but he has to remain very sneaky and smart about it and use throwing stars, bolos, nets and web grenade type things to help him.
He can only take down Inferno or others on a team. In these cases he is more tactical support and crowd control. Also he may try jumping them from behind and pulling out real quick. He doesnt actually stand there kicking. Even though game mechanic wise, thats realy all a scrapper is there for. |
Ahhh...but I would find you the minority over the majority.
In my experience. Most natural scrappers/whatever ATs, who take these on solo, don't RP it that way.
I know game play wise, it's going to happen. But if you're going to put realism into it, then a natural 100% human with some hand to hand training, really isn't going to pull off what you can do game play wise.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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For the exlectricty mace, the electricity could just represent the field around it for additional smashing force.|
Originally Posted by Scientist_16
I remember the 'nothing that seems like it would do a different damage type as a weapon skin' argument, and it annoyed me back when it was set as much as it does now.
Tsalorian weapons don't add energy damage to your attacks. An electrically crackling Warhammer wouldn't either. A flaming sword? Nope. Just straight Smethal damage. I think that having a wooden sword isn't THAT ridiculous. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ Hero A: *swings a wooden sword* Villain: Argh! Hey, what the hell? My combat window says that's lethal damage! Hero A: Nope. Wooden sword. Villain: Ahhh. I getcha. *wink* *Theatrically reels from the 'concussive blow'* Hero B: *fires an Assault Rifle* Villain: Argh! I'm bleeding! Oh, right through the gut! I'm gonna die! Hero B: Actually, they're 'Rubber Bullets'. Villain: Oh, okay then. Argh, aaah, these bruises! I'm getting dizzy! I'm gonna pass out! Hero C: *Throws a fireball* Villain: Oh god, I'm on fire! Stop! Drop! Roll! Hero C: Actually, that's a summoned steam elemental. Villain: Oh, okay then. Err. I'm damp and soggy? What? Hero C: You choke on it and pass out. Villain: Oooooh. Gasp! Gasp! I can't breathe! *whud* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ Related aside: My Katana Scrapper has a macro'd taunt that quotes Sigfried from Soul Calibur upon victory. "I avoided your vitals. You'll live." In real life, roughing up a thug with a bladed weapon just doesn't work. I'm aware of that, and know that even non-fatal wounds like that would risk accidental murder. I just handwave it because City of Heroes isn't very deconstructionist. It doesn't penalize you for doing stuff that is very classically heroic but in real life is really dumb. That's why I don't call out people for wearing flashy but impractical spandex, or tell them that their capes will get stuck in a jet engine (Ala Incredibles, loved the movie, hated that sequence). |
Talasorion weapon skins, don't have to do energy damage. They are force fields that produce sharp edges. Nothing says it has to produce energy damage as well.
Flaming sword. Could just be an aura, since I can't think of a flaming sword weapon skin >.> Unless you're talking about Fire Melee, then well, they do fire damage
However that said, I know ways around this, that I wish the Devs would do. Make more sets with various damage type procs. Or just make straight damage procs of various damage types that can go into any power!
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The BrandX Collection
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Excellent point!
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Originally Posted by Judgement_Dave
More choice in powersets and skins is always good - but 'til then there's imagination. You can come up with a rationale for any set being non-lethal if you don't trust the teleportation network.
BTW I don't really hold that powersets with blades can't be given smashing skins and vice versa - surely the damage types have been slightly disjointed from the fx with power spectrum (still think it should have been going rouge). Now you can have negative energy looking bright and cheery and normal energy looking dark and pretty darn negative. Is blue fire really fire? It could be some sort of mental illusion or spirit fire, but the damage type is still just 'fire'. If that's possible I don't really see the issue with having wooden swords/batons/black puddings/tickling sticks available as skins for dual swords. So why are there still so many kidnaps? Who would give in to the kidnapper's demands? Pay $2miLlioN iN uSEd inF oR wE kIlL tHe gIRl Hmmmm..... You couldn't kill her at 6pm could you? I'll pick her up at the hospital doors on my way back home from work... |
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Originally Posted by Scientist_16
I remember the 'nothing that seems like it would do a different damage type as a weapon skin' argument, and it annoyed me back when it was set as much as it does now.
Tsalorian weapons don't add energy damage to your attacks. An electrically crackling Warhammer wouldn't either. A flaming sword? Nope. Just straight Smethal damage. I think that having a wooden sword isn't THAT ridiculous. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ Hero A: *swings a wooden sword* Villain: Argh! Hey, what the hell? My combat window says that's lethal damage! Hero A: Nope. Wooden sword. Villain: Ahhh. I getcha. *wink* *Theatrically reels from the 'concussive blow'* Hero B: *fires an Assault Rifle* Villain: Argh! I'm bleeding! Oh, right through the gut! I'm gonna die! Hero B: Actually, they're 'Rubber Bullets'. Villain: Oh, okay then. Argh, aaah, these bruises! I'm getting dizzy! I'm gonna pass out! Hero C: *Throws a fireball* Villain: Oh god, I'm on fire! Stop! Drop! Roll! Hero C: Actually, that's a summoned steam elemental. Villain: Oh, okay then. Err. I'm damp and soggy? What? Hero C: You choke on it and pass out. Villain: Oooooh. Gasp! Gasp! I can't breathe! *whud* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ Related aside: My Katana Scrapper has a macro'd taunt that quotes Sigfried from Soul Calibur upon victory. "I avoided your vitals. You'll live." In real life, roughing up a thug with a bladed weapon just doesn't work. I'm aware of that, and know that even non-fatal wounds like that would risk accidental murder. I just handwave it because City of Heroes isn't very deconstructionist. It doesn't penalize you for doing stuff that is very classically heroic but in real life is really dumb. That's why I don't call out people for wearing flashy but impractical spandex, or tell them that their capes will get stuck in a jet engine (Ala Incredibles, loved the movie, hated that sequence). |
I agree.
On another note. Who says I cant cut with a wooden sword? I can't RP that I have a magical boken that seems all innocent but actually cuts through anything?
Ever heard of splinters? I can't cut you with my splinters?
I can't use a shovel or a something else to cut? Shovels can freakin cut! Trust me, I know... :P
The other thing is... and probably the MAIN point to consider in all of this is...
IF people want bokken or those Esckima sticks, why make a whole nother set, with the same or EXTREMELY similair animations, but change the damage from lethal to smashing?
Seems more logical to just give the look to the current sets, thereby saving the time and energy and make more unique sets.
I think thats probably the main point in this. It saves time, energy and attention (which all equals money) and will make people happy.
-Sin
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The wooden sword is really the sticking point for me. We HAVE a baseball bat correctly filed under mace. A mallet or a Frying Pan would look reasonable under Mace. (Actually, don't we have a carnie mallet? The silly wooden hammer?). But A sword should probably be using the Broadsword or Katana animations, not the Mace animations. Something like Dual Tonfa would probably look better with Dual Blades animation, or the Claws animations. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Ridiculous? Actually, it is. It makes sense as the logical extension of an argument, but when it comes to physical damage, certain things just look silly. Weapons which are intended to cut and pierce need to LOOK like they can cut and pierce. While a wooden sword may sort of pass, a baseball bat would certainly NOT. Giving, say, a mallet or a frying pan to a sword set and letting you cut with that is no less ridiculous than giving a balloon animal sword to a sword set and letting you cut with THAT.
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As an aside, being able to do fatal damage with balloon animals seems to be quite thematic for a jester/clown villain or Hero, I'd have no problem with something like that being included, silly or not.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Some things you can ignore for the sake of the rule of cool, but they still need to make sense. I can see a weapon which sparks electricity not doing electrical damage, but because it's cool and because you can have electrical sparks that don't damage tissue, but I cannot see stabbing a person with a bowling ball, say.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Talasorion weapon skins, don't have to do energy damage. They are force fields that produce sharp edges. Nothing says it has to produce energy damage as well.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Flaming sword. Could just be an aura, since I can't think of a flaming sword weapon skin >.> Unless you're talking about Fire Melee, then well, they do fire damage
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I dunno, somebody who takes a direct through-and-through hit from a cannonball (which is, at those speeds, basically the same thing) is, I submit, getting pretty comprehensively pierced. |
Originally Posted by Scientist_16
You can't stab someone with a bowling ball, in game or in real life.
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My musings on the matter have always been that it's not what we're throwing at them that matters, it's what they can take.
For instance, once you get past "street gang" level and start moving into the more exotic enemies, it's easy to believe that they can shrug off normally fatal injuries. Trolls always stood out to me in this case, they just seem like they'd be resilliant enough that I can slash to my hearts content and they'll be fine. Vahzilok are just animated sacks of flesh, and the living ones would proably enjoy dismemberment. Freaks are so hopped up on Excelsior and covered in cybernetics, those guys could survive anything. Natural enemy groups at this point could easily be wearing kevlar (and it's easy to assume given their resistances to Lethal). I seriously doubt that my claws will breach a Rikti's armor enough to hit flesh.
Once you reach a certain point, it's easy to believe your enemies are simply strong/armored enough to handle that much abuse.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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Actually, this may be the most realistic part of the game. The vast majority of criminals target unsuspecting, unprotected innocents or others criminals or borderline criminals.. Most street gang violence, for example targets other street gangs. Very few criminal organizations directly target law enforcers, police, and I would imagine (if they existed in RL), super-heroes.|
Originally Posted by Eisenzahn
I kind of feel for the OP, but there are RP workarounds. The implied lethality of a lot of Hero powers is pretty easy to overlook, compared to the overwhelming heroic bias to all co-op content and a great deal of Villain content. I could level a character from 1-50 redside easily on standard non-AE content, without visiting newspapers any more often than is necessary to get new contacts, and never face a Hero except for the hugely overused Longbow faction in Mayhem Missions.
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Easy opponents=good for business
Tough/challenging opponents=bad for business
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While I agreed with a lot of your comments, I think this one is just factually wrong, at least in most places. I can't prove it at present, but I believe if there is a step between warning and conventional firearms, it's only beanbag rounds/tasers or some other system designed to be non-lethal. If a police officer starts using a weapon designed to be lethal, they aren't just likely, but expected to be shooting dead center body. Limb shots? Not by professional law enforcers.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In fact, this is entirely how police officers are trained to respond to threat - via escalating force. Police officers don't shoot for the head at the first sign of trouble, and I'm fairly certain any policeman who does is facing some serious disciplinary action. Verbal warning first, if those don't work then limb shots, and only in extreme situations should they resort to body shots, the idea being to try and stop the person without killing him.
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The original notion was putting in clubs and bats and sticks for sword weapon options, which IS ridiculous. We have cubbing powersets, those go in them. If we don't have the right clubbing powerset, a new one can be considered. But a clubbing weapon does not go in a cutting powerset.|
Originally Posted by Scientist_16
The wooden sword is really the sticking point for me. We HAVE a baseball bat correctly filed under mace. A mallet or a Frying Pan would look reasonable under Mace. (Actually, don't we have a carnie mallet? The silly wooden hammer?). But A sword should probably be using the Broadsword or Katana animations, not the Mace animations. Something like Dual Tonfa would probably look better with Dual Blades animation, or the Claws animations.
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Tonfa, for instance, do not go in Dual Blades, unless you're looking at a tonfa like the one Stryder Hiryu wields, which is more like a sword with a perpendicular handle. Dual Blades are called that because the powerset revolves around blades. Ergo, non-bladed weapons have no place in a Dual Blades powerset. Furthermore, though the developers didn't want to call it that, the set is thematically written around swords, so axes, chakrims, pitckforks an whatever other weapons could have blades but don't conform to the sword shape also aren't appropriate.
I look at it this way - you can put ANY weapon in any of the sword sets as long as it's able to cut and/or pierce in the manner depicted by the set. As long as the weapon can do the set's damage type and perform the set's attacks without looking stupid, I don't care if it's a wooden sword, an energy sword or a fire sword.
Which brings us back to the original point - a club cannot cut (and if it can, it's not a club and defeats the purpose if it being non-lethal), therefore it shouldn't be in a set built around a cutting weapon. It should instead go in the set built around a bashing weapon.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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No indeed. Police firearms instructors very much look down on that kind of John Wayne horseplay. Not only is it not likely to work, it implies that the officer who's willing to attempt it is not, shall we say, taking the whole "lethal force" thing seriously. Life on the front lines of street law enforcement isn't a video game.
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Originally Posted by Madadh
Limb shots? Not by professional law enforcers.
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This is odd. Being that I'm not a policeman, I don't know, but absolutely every documentary I've seen has had trained policemen talk about limb shots and make that a point. I'm not sure where beanbags enter the picture, given that this isn't a strike team entering a room, it's a policeman when a civilian becomes threatening. Say someone's coming onto a cop with a pipe. Is the policeman really going to go from verbal warning to two shots, centre-mass?
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Originally Posted by Madadh
While I agreed with a lot of your comments, I think this one is just factually wrong, at least in most places. I can't prove it at present, but I believe if there is a step between warning and conventional firearms, it's only beanbag rounds/tasers or some other system designed to be non-lethal. If a police officer starts using a weapon designed to be lethal, they aren't just likely, but expected to be shooting dead center body. Limb shots? Not by professional law enforcers.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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No; that's why they carry those truncheon things.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Say someone's coming onto a cop with a pipe. Is the policeman really going to go from verbal warning to two shots, centre-mass?
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Aiming for the limbs of a moving target is a great way to risk one's own safety in a confrontation.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Say someone's coming onto a cop with a pipe. Is the policeman really going to go from verbal warning to two shots, centre-mass?
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I have to agree with a lot of the posters, that just because broadsword and katana do lethal damage this shouldn't mean a wooden sword skin is out. The animations (ie how someone would wield a wooden sword) would fit, even if the damage type wouldn't. Who cares?
Well, the devs seem to, as they said that they'd not add skins for a damage type that didn't match the weapon type...
Except, last I checked the sai was still an option under dual blades... Hmm. A smashing weapon that looks kinda blade-like that can do lethal damage..... Already in the game. So, why again, not others?
If we can be expected to suspend disbelief on teleports to hospitals, people that can fly, and hundreds of other ways we use our imaginations to maintain the illusion that is this game, I can surely just imagine the lethal damage from a boken as smashing damage instead.
And lastly, is there any real difference (in game I mean, not in the real world, I know in RL the differences are significant) between smashing and lethal damage. Is there anyone or anything out there that has a higher resistance or defense level to smashing than to lethal? Or vice-versa? I can't think of any, but there may be one or two. But hardly enough to make it an issue, in my opinion.
Also, I don't think "coming onto" means what you think it means.
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I meant to say "coming at you." Have I mentioned English is not my first language recently? |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Also, I don't think "coming onto" means what you think it means.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
This is odd. Being that I'm not a policeman, I don't know, but absolutely every documentary I've seen has had trained policemen talk about limb shots and make that a point. I'm not sure where beanbags enter the picture, given that this isn't a strike team entering a room, it's a policeman when a civilian becomes threatening. Say someone's coming onto a cop with a pipe. Is the policeman really going to go from verbal warning to two shots, centre-mass?
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All police officers and law enforcement agents are trained to use there firearms for lethal purposes. You may have heard about limb shots after the fact.... meaning after they aimed for the torso but missed and hit a limb. Still they are trained to only fire for a killshot. Anything less and they would be stripped of their badge.
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Good question. I can't think of a single one either. It's always resistance to lethal/smashing. Not one or the other.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
I have to agree with a lot of the posters, that just because broadsword and katana do lethal damage this shouldn't mean a wooden sword skin is out. The animations (ie how someone would wield a wooden sword) would fit, even if the damage type wouldn't. Who cares?
Well, the devs seem to, as they said that they'd not add skins for a damage type that didn't match the weapon type... Except, last I checked the sai was still an option under dual blades... Hmm. A smashing weapon that looks kinda blade-like that can do lethal damage..... Already in the game. So, why again, not others? If we can be expected to suspend disbelief on teleports to hospitals, people that can fly, and hundreds of other ways we use our imaginations to maintain the illusion that is this game, I can surely just imagine the lethal damage from a boken as smashing damage instead. And lastly, is there any real difference (in game I mean, not in the real world, I know in RL the differences are significant) between smashing and lethal damage. Is there anyone or anything out there that has a higher resistance or defense level to smashing than to lethal? Or vice-versa? I can't think of any, but there may be one or two. But hardly enough to make it an issue, in my opinion. |
I dont know. The whole subject seems rather stupid. The logic behind it. "This is a world where people can fly and you can use lethal weapons and not kill anyone" So in this regard they suspend physics but then they say "We aren't putting smashing weapons into a lethal set because smashing weapons do smashing damage".
Um... kind of picking and choosing physics there. In this regard, really, we then can't have a logical arguement to convince them. If you pick and choose where you want to suspend belief and not have a set line, it becomes problematic.
In the end ask yourself. Would you rather put together a whole new set (lets say duel smashing) and have it play and look exactly like Duel Blades, just so it can deal smashing damage instead of lethal (especially when smashing/lethal are placed together constantly)
or
would you rather just put a simple option in there?
I find it rather funny that all the time people RP that they are using the flat of the blade. Technically that is blunt force, aka smashing damage. So we can use weapons and RP we are doing Smashing Damage but we can't RP using a smashing damage weapon that we are doing smashing damage?
I think the logic for not putting the skin in there is rather flawed and illogical aswell.
]
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Also, I don't think "coming onto" means what you think it means.
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and...
Thats what she said.
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I remember the 'nothing that seems like it would do a different damage type as a weapon skin' argument, and it annoyed me back when it was set as much as it does now.
Tsalorian weapons don't add energy damage to your attacks. An electrically crackling Warhammer wouldn't either. A flaming sword? Nope. Just straight Smethal damage. I think that having a wooden sword isn't THAT ridiculous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Hero A: *swings a wooden sword*
Villain: Argh! Hey, what the hell? My combat window says that's lethal damage!
Hero A: Nope. Wooden sword.
Villain: Ahhh. I getcha. *wink* *Theatrically reels from the 'concussive blow'*
Hero B: *fires an Assault Rifle*
Villain: Argh! I'm bleeding! Oh, right through the gut! I'm gonna die!
Hero B: Actually, they're 'Rubber Bullets'.
Villain: Oh, okay then. Argh, aaah, these bruises! I'm getting dizzy! I'm gonna pass out!
Hero C: *Throws a fireball*
Villain: Oh god, I'm on fire! Stop! Drop! Roll!
Hero C: Actually, that's a summoned steam elemental.
Villain: Oh, okay then. Err. I'm damp and soggy? What?
Hero C: You choke on it and pass out.
Villain: Oooooh. Gasp! Gasp! I can't breathe! *whud*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Related aside: My Katana Scrapper has a macro'd taunt that quotes Sigfried from Soul Calibur upon victory. "I avoided your vitals. You'll live."
In real life, roughing up a thug with a bladed weapon just doesn't work. I'm aware of that, and know that even non-fatal wounds like that would risk accidental murder. I just handwave it because City of Heroes isn't very deconstructionist. It doesn't penalize you for doing stuff that is very classically heroic but in real life is really dumb.
That's why I don't call out people for wearing flashy but impractical spandex, or tell them that their capes will get stuck in a jet engine (Ala Incredibles, loved the movie, hated that sequence).