More heroic heroes, please
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-10-11 22:27 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
This is true. Still, there are too many examples of missions and storylines where things are presented as being life or death for me to think that EVERYONE is under the medical teleportation system.|
Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
Most people won't bleed to death if you pull out all their teeth but they would rather have a guy dressed in day glow untie them before that happens.
|
I would think that resources for doing something like that would be enormous...so they would limit it to vital persons. That would be the superpowered heroes who need to stay in the fight to protect the city and world from dire threats. As was stated, even the police drones are extremely expensive and rare...so they aren't used in everyday police activity.
I suppose its open to interpretation...but that's the one that makes to most sense to me. Also, why WOULD you give killers, thugs, demon worshipping shamen and mad scientists a get out of death free card? If you're living on the outside of the law...why would the city attempt to protect your life like that?
Quote:
Maybe everyone is just overly dramatic? This is a comic-book universe after all.
|
Originally Posted by Slashman
This is true. Still, there are too many examples of missions and storylines where things are presented as being life or death for me to think that EVERYONE is under the medical teleportation system.
|
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
Quote:
To the person who said I didn't answer his question: I did. That's why the facepalm: Because he kept trying to insist there was anything more to this conversation than what had already been covered.|
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
 |
Also, bonus points for throwing rep at two-week old posts. Consider the above aimed at you, too.
And to the person who described this post as screaming:
. Seriously, are you even trying? Consider the above aimed at you, too.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Some ppl might take a comic book view of this game,while others might take a more "Watchmen-esque or Wanted" kind of outlook.
I believe if there were superheroes and super villains then life and death would be an everyday occurance.Yea heroes would ultimitaly try to bring in the baddies to justice but,faced with the outcome that ppl are going to die or the hero to die then I believe it would be more of a fight to the death.
Villains on the other hand wouldn't be pissing around,killing any opposition(cops,military,heroes,etc)it would be as normal as waking up in the morning.
This is the problem that I have with comix is that it should be a more life and death struggle and not that once again the Joker got sent to arkham for the 1,000 time after he killed 100 ppl.Heroes are after all human and they should come to the realization that sometimes it is necessary to do such things to protect the population.Batman would come to realization that perhaps the Joker should be killed to protect ppl.Comix take the moral highroad and ppl goto jail or the funny farm,but,in rl it wouldn't be that way.
I concur Larker. In the real world the Joker would have been a fly-eaten corpse years ago. Why would you allow someone to live that you know is just going to break out of the asylum and kill dozens of people the first chance he gets?
Batman is indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people by not putting the Joker down after the first time he proved he is unable to be rehabilitated.
You don't put a rabid dog in the pound and hope it will get better....you shoot the damn thing.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
This is the thing I liked about Watchmen,they went and killed ppl and broke bones,they didn't piss around trying to rationalize with them.The same being said from the Wanted graphic novel(NOT the sry excuse for a movie) the villains didn't **** around with the heroes.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I concur Larker. In the real world the Joker would have been a fly-eaten corpse years ago. Why would you allow someone to live that you know is just going to break out of the asylum and kill dozens of people the first chance he gets?
Batman is indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people by not putting the Joker down after the first time he proved he is unable to be rehabilitated. You don't put a rabid dog in the pound and hope it will get better....you shoot the damn thing. |
Even the new Batman(Bale) have him puttin the harm on baddies and stuff gets destroyed in the process.I like a realistic take on my heroes/villains.If I wanted to watch fake fluffy heroes I'd watch Care Bears.
If I was a hero I wouldn't mess around baddies would get hurt and the worst of them would die.Sry to quote but,with great power comes great responsibility.Something I would bear on my shoulders because I know if I let someone like Osama bin Laden go to jail or a slap on the wrist punishment then ppl are going to suffer.Some ppl are just plain evil and there is no helping them.
Quote:
Well, I think you'll be pleased with the way Praetoria is run then - although, they will be shwon to be villains |
Originally Posted by The_Larker
This is the problem that I have with comix is that it should be a more life and death struggle and not that once again the Joker got sent to arkham for the 1,000 time after he killed 100 ppl.Heroes are after all human and they should come to the realization that sometimes it is necessary to do such things to protect the population.Batman would come to realization that perhaps the Joker should be killed to protect ppl.Comix take the moral highroad and ppl goto jail or the funny farm,but,in rl it wouldn't be that way.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I find the logic behind this faulty. We have to go to Praetoria to have villainous villains? Because beating up the Council, Family, and CoT was really putting me on the FBI's most wanted list |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, I think you'll be pleased with the way Praetoria is run then - although, they will be shwon to be villains
|
Just because the Devs, in their naivete, say Emperor Cole is a villain doesn't make it so
SHWON!
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
Quote:
Actually, I think it does |
Originally Posted by BigFish
Just because the Devs, in their naivete, say Emperor Cole is a villain doesn't make it so
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I'd have to say you're wrong. But I'll explain why.|
Originally Posted by The_Larker
Some ppl might take a comic book view of this game,while others might take a more "Watchmen-esque or Wanted" kind of outlook.
I believe if there were superheroes and super villains then life and death would be an everyday occurance.Yea heroes would ultimitaly try to bring in the baddies to justice but,faced with the outcome that ppl are going to die or the hero to die then I believe it would be more of a fight to the death. Villains on the other hand wouldn't be pissing around,killing any opposition(cops,military,heroes,etc)it would be as normal as waking up in the morning. This is the problem that I have with comix is that it should be a more life and death struggle and not that once again the Joker got sent to arkham for the 1,000 time after he killed 100 ppl.Heroes are after all human and they should come to the realization that sometimes it is necessary to do such things to protect the population.Batman would come to realization that perhaps the Joker should be killed to protect ppl.Comix take the moral highroad and ppl goto jail or the funny farm,but,in rl it wouldn't be that way. |
First off, Batman isn't that type of vigilante. He's not the kill just to get rid of the criminals, type of hero. He's the type that goes about catching them, then letting the courts decide.
Second, Joker is insane. That's a nice way to stay off death row.
Third, you want to keep it to the more realistic world, then you have to realize, being liberal is the in thing! Liberals are anti death penalty (won't say that goes for 100% to avoid any hurt feelings, and my intention isn't to start some a political debate...so let's don't). Don't kill animals, and that includes other people! Even if they are murders (psychotic or not).
As for the other criminals, I couldn't truthfully say how many were killers and not insane. I don't recall Penguin being a psychotic killer, but I don't recall him being a big time killer, like the Joker.
Two-Face, insane.
Catwoman, again, not a killer (doesnt mean she hasnt, but again I don't recall).
Most of Batman's rogue gallery I think can probably be declared insane, and why they go to the asylum rather than a real prison.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
... which, since it's a game that's visibly rooted in the Silver Age of superhero comics, is kind of silly. Like standing in the produce aisle of your local supermarket and loudly complaining that you can't find any meat.
|
Originally Posted by The_Larker
Some ppl might take a comic book view of this game,while others might take a more "Watchmen-esque or Wanted" kind of outlook.
|
Quote:
And why? They call my redsiders 'villains' but 99% of the time I'm arresting the same bad-guys I do blueside. Longbow doesn't count, because they're bigger thugs than I ever could be!|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, I think it does
|
If the devs can be wrong about the players, they can get their NPCs wrong too
GG, your simplistic views aren't going to serve you well after the horsey-rides are through
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
Quote:
You're a villain red side because you're doing evil deeds - evil people can fight each other too |
Originally Posted by BigFish
And why? They call my redsiders 'villains' but 99% of the time I'm arresting the same bad-guys I do blueside. Longbow doesn't count, because they're bigger thugs than I ever could be!
If the devs can be wrong about the players, they can get their NPCs wrong too |
Quote:
| GG, your simplistic views aren't going to serve you well after the horsey-rides are through |
Of course, there should be, but thatäs for another thread
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Yea and this is the problem today.But,what my personal opinion is moot.But,still if I wasn't so -neg repp'd down I'd give ya a plus!|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Third, you want to keep it to the more realistic world, then you have to realize, being liberal is the in thing! Liberals are anti death penalty (won't say that goes for 100% to avoid any hurt feelings, and my intention isn't to start some a political debate...so let's don't). Don't kill animals, and that includes other people! Even if they are murders (psychotic or not). |
Wow, this one got ugly.
With my BS/SR I'd assumed that with all his fancy nanotechnology and the like (Tech origin) the sword could be blunted to avoid injury, while enough to slice up weapons, okay-to-kill things (robots, zombies) and people, if things are bad enough that the gloves come off. (Rikti are an invading army, and somehow I doubt Cimerorans get the idea of non-lethality) Weapon Customsation helped, since the Tech broadsword looks like a device that's capable of that.
Assault Rifle is relatively easy; tranq darts, rubber bullets, folks get teleported to the Zig before burns get too lethal, you know the deal.
Quote:
By the way, I apologize if that part sounded insulting in anyway. I really was just trying to keep it nice and pretty plain, keeping it to the real world sense that I was replying to.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Third, you want to keep it to the more realistic world, then you have to realize, being liberal is the in thing! Liberals are anti death penalty (won't say that goes for 100% to avoid any hurt feelings, and my intention isn't to start some a political debate...so let's don't). Don't kill animals, and that includes other people! Even if they are murders (psychotic or not).
|
Personally, I like my comics staying where they are...fictional
If heroes killed off all the badguys, how would we get more issues?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
The whole "superheroes don't kill and trust the justice system to sort things out, even though villains escape all the time" is a genre convention based on serial storytelling and character longevity. Batman doesn't kill because killing is what the bad guys do. Batman doesn't kill the Joker because it's up to the justice system to deal with him. The Joker escapes because he's a popular villain, and fans like to see Batman take him on.
It's not about the strict mathematics of "how many people would be alive today if Batman shot Joker down" because that's not really how DC's superhero stories work.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Besides, they have explored those kind of things in Elseworlds and the like. I've seen an alternate world where Batman (named Paladin) became a sniper, and shot and killed the Joker... and the Penguin, and Two-face, and by the time Gordon catches up to him he's got his sights on Catwoman.
Batman's been built up as such a powerful and terrifying character who's already on the edge of sanity, and the whole not-killing deal keeps him from going too far. Note how there's much fewer 'Batman gone bad' stories than 'Superman gone bad'. The same goes for most non-killing heroes; that's sometimes the only thing seperating them from the villains they fight.
Quote:
It would be a good solution....IF Arkham didn't have the most lax security on the face of the planet for a maximum security asylum for the criminally insane. | Most of Batman's rogue gallery I think can probably be declared insane, and why they go to the asylum rather than a real prison. |
How many times does there have to be a mass escape before they put someone else in charge of that place?
The Joker goes to Arkham...and breaks out a week later...and it happens over and over and over. And at least one person dies every time he escapes.
At some point wouldn't you just give him a lethal injection instead of putting him BACK in the same place he keeps escaping from?
He's killed the equivelant of the population of a decently sized town by now, hasn't he earned the death penalty yet? He's NEVER going to be cured, that should be fairly obvious by now. But nope, back in the nuthouse for a week or two he goes.
It defies all logic.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Depends on what state Gotham City is in. If (as various context clues in Detective Comics issues back in the '90s hinted) it's a stand-in for Boston, then no, because the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has not possessed a capital punishment statute since the old one was declare unconstitutional in 1984.
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
At some point wouldn't you just give him a lethal injection instead of putting him BACK in the same place he keeps escaping from?
|
Quote:
Indeed it does. Even if Batman can't stomach killing the Joker, I find it hard to think that there isn't SOMEONE around who doesn't have that handicap. No family members of people he has slaughtered? No husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, brothers or sisters of victims who are willing and eager to stick a knife in his gut and 'laws' be damned?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
He's killed the equivelant of the population of a decently sized town by now, hasn't he earned the death penalty yet? He's NEVER going to be cured, that should be fairly obvious by now. But nope, back in the nuthouse for a week or two he goes.
It defies all logic. |
In Batman: Arkham Asylum, he's slaughtered dozens of guards, cops, doctors and other staff and its obvious he's been doing this kind of thing for a long time. Why is he not dead?
Quote:
It's a comic book - they're more about the fun than the logic |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It defies all logic.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Really? I rather liked Spawn and some of the Punisher stuff. Can't quite call them 'fun' in the same way as other titles.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's a comic book - they're more about the fun than the logic
|
In any event, the point is that if the official dev stance is that people don't really die in COX, then it's very poorly supported by what is portrayed in the game.
I'd love to hear the rationale behind various villain groups killing people to shut them up about their plans and plots. This would include Vahzilok, Malta, Crey, The Council, The Family, The Tsoo, Arachnos and others. All those groups feature story arcs where they kill, or threaten to kill, people to hide their plans or cover up secrets.
If you can't permanently off a guy or scare him into thinking his life is truly in danger, how effective would you really be at being a truly evil super-criminal?
For the developers to turn around and say that no one dies in CoX is silly and laughable. Which is why I'm inclined to think that BABs was just messing with us when he made that statement. It seems obvious to me that the medical teleportation system is primarily for use by heroes.
Quote:
How many years is this going to go on? How many times do I need to say this? They told you to your face - unless the narrative explicitly says so (and it rarely does), "defeat" can mean anything you want it to mean. Kill, main, beat up, arrest, tickle his *** with a feather, bake him into a giant cupcake, give him a pink pony so he reforms his ways... ANYTHING you can think of, "defeat" can mean that. If you want to say your heroes kill, then by all means, do so. The game will almost never contradict you.
|
Originally Posted by Slashman
In any event, the point is that if the official dev stance is that people don't really die in COX, then it's very poorly supported by what is portrayed in the game.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I think that people die a lot more often than BABs is giving the impression of.
As I understood it, the medical teleportation network is exclusively for heroes and special law enforcement agencies.
If, in fact, the threat of death was so very diminished, the whole idea of needing to protect citizens with such fervor that you'd don a costume and assume a secret identity would be almost laughable.
There are several missions where death is most certainly featured and a real threat if you're just a civilian. Like Vahzilok. Finding all those bodies in that mission where you get some influence for clicking each one doesn't point to a nice, safe haven when danger threatens civilians. There are at least 15 bodies in that mission. If you consider that that is typical for a Vahzilok operation...the numbers really begin to add up.
There are many more missions where dead people are prominently featured and there is no indication that they were ever a part of the medical teleportation system.
The truth is that if the world were truly so safe in COH, heroes would be out of a job for the most part. Why would you need to rush in and save a bunch of kidnapped scientists from the Clockwork, if the most that would happen to them is a near-death experience?
I love BABs and his work and presence on the forums. But I think he may have flubbed a bit on this one.
I think consulting Manticore on the lore side of things may be a better bet. But that's only IMHO...