More heroic heroes, please


Agonus

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker View Post
I think the logic for not putting the skin in there is rather flawed and illogical aswell.
]
This game has several arbitrary boundaries, and it's not unique in having those.

It is logical, however, to say that you won't put crushing weapon skins in lethal sets and vice versa. It's not illogical for them to decide not to do something that you want them to do.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene View Post
This game has several arbitrary boundaries, and it's not unique in having those.

It is logical, however, to say that you won't put crushing weapon skins in lethal sets and vice versa. It's not illogical for them to decide not to do something that you want them to do.

To say that they do not wont to, is not illogical of course but the arguement I've heard in the past tends to be. The arguement of why they dont want to. Why they dont want to put a smashing weapon in a lethal set (even though those weapons are still "lethal") and that smashing and lethal are put together, is illogical.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker View Post
To say that they do not wont to, is not illogical of course but the arguement I've heard in the past tends to be. The arguement of why they dont want to. Why they dont want to put a smashing weapon in a lethal set (even though those weapons are still "lethal") and that smashing and lethal are put together, is illogical.
No, it's completely logical. They don't want baseball bats doing lethal damage or swords doing smashing damage. This is coming down to you wanting them to do things differently, and trying to assign a faux-objective label to what amounts to nothing more than a difference of opinion.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene View Post
No, it's completely logical. They don't want baseball bats doing lethal damage or swords doing smashing damage. This is coming down to you wanting them to do things differently, and trying to assign a faux-objective label to what amounts to nothing more than a difference of opinion.
Follow the logic though. You can't just simply stop there. For it to remain logical follow it through all the way.

So the next part is why do they not want bats and such, doing lethal damage?


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
This is odd. Being that I'm not a policeman, I don't know, but absolutely every documentary I've seen has had trained policemen talk about limb shots and make that a point. I'm not sure where beanbags enter the picture, given that this isn't a strike team entering a room, it's a policeman when a civilian becomes threatening. Say someone's coming onto a cop with a pipe. Is the policeman really going to go from verbal warning to two shots, centre-mass?
Every police officer I've known, which while I'm not a police officer (I have taken classes, and took some training)...if you pull that gun out, be ready to use, and aim for center mass.

But you have to remember, most cops don't pull their gun during their career. Of course, I suspect that statistic changes from where you live.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker View Post
Good question. I can't think of a single one either. It's always resistance to lethal/smashing. Not one or the other.



I dont know. The whole subject seems rather stupid. The logic behind it. "This is a world where people can fly and you can use lethal weapons and not kill anyone" So in this regard they suspend physics but then they say "We aren't putting smashing weapons into a lethal set because smashing weapons do smashing damage".

Um... kind of picking and choosing physics there. In this regard, really, we then can't have a logical arguement to convince them. If you pick and choose where you want to suspend belief and not have a set line, it becomes problematic.


In the end ask yourself. Would you rather put together a whole new set (lets say duel smashing) and have it play and look exactly like Duel Blades, just so it can deal smashing damage instead of lethal (especially when smashing/lethal are placed together constantly)
or
would you rather just put a simple option in there?


I find it rather funny that all the time people RP that they are using the flat of the blade. Technically that is blunt force, aka smashing damage. So we can use weapons and RP we are doing Smashing Damage but we can't RP using a smashing damage weapon that we are doing smashing damage?


I think the logic for not putting the skin in there is rather flawed and illogical aswell.
]
I'd prefere the new set myself.

And I never RP'ed that my character used the flat of her blade.

I RP'ed that she was good enough to use the blades without hitting the vitals, and was thus able to encapacite the criminals she was after, rather than kill them.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Say someone's coming onto a cop with a pipe. Is the policeman really going to go from verbal warning to two shots, centre-mass?


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker View Post
Follow the logic though. You can't just simply stop there. For it to remain logical follow it through all the way.

So the next part is why do they not want bats and such, doing lethal damage?
It defeats the purpose of having different damage types if they no longer apply to the theme of the attack. Imagine being able to make greater fire sword look like it uses a bat. It's more extreme, but is wrong for the same reason. Why have damage types at all?

Although, broadswords should thematically apply smashing damage whenever lethal damage is more resisted, but that's probably far beyond what this game will ever see.


 

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Originally Posted by Scientist_16 View Post
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Hero A: *swings a wooden sword*
Villain: Argh! Hey, what the hell? My combat window says that's lethal damage!
Hero A: Nope. Wooden sword.
Villain: Ahhh. I getcha. *wink* *Theatrically reels from the 'concussive blow'*

Hero B: *fires an Assault Rifle*
Villain: Argh! I'm bleeding! Oh, right through the gut! I'm gonna die!
Hero B: Actually, they're 'Rubber Bullets'.
Villain: Oh, okay then. Argh, aaah, these bruises! I'm getting dizzy! I'm gonna pass out!

Hero C: *Throws a fireball*
Villain: Oh god, I'm on fire! Stop! Drop! Roll!
Hero C: Actually, that's a summoned steam elemental.
Villain: Oh, okay then. Err. I'm damp and soggy? What?
Hero C: You choke on it and pass out.
Villain: Oooooh. Gasp! Gasp! I can't breathe! *whud*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Hahahahahahahaha!!! Great post, but I just have to say, these exchanges made me LOL.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker View Post
Follow the logic though. You can't just simply stop there. For it to remain logical follow it through all the way.

So the next part is why do they not want bats and such, doing lethal damage?
Because they defined lethal damage as slashing and piercing, such as bullets, knives, and axes. Smashing damage is caused by blunt objects. They want to maintain this thematic separation. There is no rabbit hole here. This is not illogical.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker View Post
Good question. I can't think of a single one either. It's always resistance to lethal/smashing. Not one or the other.
This is not even remotely true. Very, very few things actually have resistance to both smashing and lethal damage. Most of the "metal" targets are resistant to just lethal. Robots of all kings, for instance, are highly resistant to lethal damage (by 50%, in fact), but are actually vulnerable to smashing damage (by at least -20%). Granted Crey Tanks and Rikti armoured soldiers ARE resistant to smashing and lethal, but anywhere you see a robot or generally a hard target, it's resistant to lethal, weak to smashing. Clockwork and Column robots, especially, as well as the Devouring Earth rock creatures. Hell, Mastermind Robots are weak to smashing but strong against lethal and a few other damage types.

Few things, however, are weak to lethal. Carnies are in their entirety by -20%, which makes a big difference, and they have no such vulnerability to smashing damage. Devouring Earth walking trees and I think mushrooms are weak to lethal damage, but are strong against smashing, probably on the pretext that while it's easy to cut a soft plant, beating it isn't as effective. Generally speaking, soft targets ought to be weak to lethal damage, but very few of them actually are. Again, Carnies, walking plants and I THINK possibly the Knives of Artemis. And that's it.

Either way, smashing resistance is found on vastly different enemies from lethal resistance, for the most part. That's why I'm actually AGAINST adding variable-damage sets in the game - enemy resistances are so obscure, inconsistent and difficult to keep track of even WITH the Power Analyser that it's just more trouble than it's worth. Not that that's relevant to this thread, but I'm just appending it as an example.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker View Post
Follow the logic though. You can't just simply stop there. For it to remain logical follow it through all the way.

So the next part is why do they not want bats and such, doing lethal damage?
The game doesn't have to be realistic, but it HAS to follow its internal logic for it to make sense and not be a friggin' mess. And internal logic dictates that "lethal" damage represents cutting and piercing damage. And you can't cut and pierce with a baseball bat in such a way as to make it look anything other than quite silly. For the most part, the game does quite well keeping to its internal logic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker View Post
All police officers and law enforcement agents are trained to use there firearms for lethal purposes. You may have heard about limb shots after the fact.... meaning after they aimed for the torso but missed and hit a limb. Still they are trained to only fire for a killshot. Anything less and they would be stripped of their badge.
This is why my AR blaster is from the National Forestry Service.
Ranger Emily only needs to worry about hurting trees, which take collateral damage a lot better than people do. Well, Devouring Earth aside, but that can be classed as "pruning with extreme prejudice".


Is it time for the dance of joy yet?

 

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Yes, yes people die from tasers but it's less lethal then multiple gunshot and does less damage then being beat into submission. If you struggle they will tase you again, that's how it works. Just like in the good old days if you kept fighting they would keep hitting or choke you with their leg on your throat.

Even the camera guy commented about him still fighting them off after being cuffed. I'm glad that people who wish to fight till the last can now do so without doing much harm to law enforcement agents.


 

Posted

Here's the thing. I understand not using an ice sword (or even a regular sword) skin as an option for fire sword, on account of the secondary burning animation, or a baseball bat or big salami instead of greater stone mallet on account of the crumbling rock secondary FX.

Having said that, the "lethal" (piercing, cutting, bloodletting) secondary effects (visuals and sounds) aren't exactly all that obvious in what they are. Yes a guy reeling back from a hail of bullets is obviously being shot, but since there's no blood, bits of bone (or other internal chunks) flying out of the guy it's not as blatantly obvious as, say, setting a guy on fire with your fire powers of fiery fire damage. The katana sound effects to me just sound like kitchen scissors cutting air. Although I have never personally witnessed a person being cut down with a sword (nor do I wish to), I'm willing to bet there's a few splashing noises, some gurgling, and perhaps a whimper that sounds a lot like "Why? Dear God WHY!"

>>>This is not a call for more gore!!<<<

I don't want Mortal Kombat, the MMO, nor do I want to see visible evidence that NPCs poop themselves when one-shotted. I just don't see the issue with adding escrima sticks, bokken, or whatever else to the sets that would use similar if not the exact same animations where the secondary effects aren't explicit. A plumber's wrench as a superhero mace is considerably sillier, in my opinion. I've always found the Wrecker to be the lamest villain in all comic book history.

Worst case scenario: Fine! How about escrima sticks with a twisted, rusty nail through the ends? Or will people start wanting toxic damage because of the tetanus?


 

Posted

I just want to keep sets with "sword" and "blade" in the name using swords and/or bladed weapons. I'm willing to accept weapons that, in real life, don't cut but in-game sort of look like they do. I cannot, however, accept a weapon which CLEARLY doesn't cut put into a sword set and being stabbed through a man's chest. If it doesn't have a blade, it has no place being in a set about Dual Blades.

And why do they need to be, really? You already have a variety of basing sets, including a bashing weapon set. Why not put them in there? Why try bastardize sets that clearly don't fit the bill? It's like picking Assault Rifle and then asking for slingshots to be added as a weapon variant. I'm not against that as an attack set, but it has no business being jackhammered into Assault Rifle.

Ask for new sets, by all means. But let's try to give the sets that already exist some meaning in being separate, defined sets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I just want to keep sets with "sword" and "blade" in the name using swords and/or bladed weapons. I'm willing to accept weapons that, in real life, don't cut but in-game sort of look like they do.
To me, it's a question of animation more than anything as nebulous as damage type. Take our old friend the bokutō. It's quite plainly made of wood and has no cutting edge, and, as such, should (by your lights) never ever ever ever ever be made available as a skin for Katana. And fair enough. Except...

The problem there is that a bokutō is, by definition, a sword made of wood - the name literally means "wooden sword" - and is expected to be wielded in exactly the same way as the metal slashy-slashy version. The great samurai Miyamoto Musashi (1584?-1645) killed more than one of his dueling opponents that way during his career. The animations, as it were, are the same. If you were to take a bokutō and wield it like (e.g.) a War Mace, you would very much be Doing It Wrong.

As you can see, this example leaves us at something of an impasse. Obviously, judged visually, such an item belongs with the Katana set. Obviously, judged by game mechanics, it has no business there. For myself, since I can see the power animations but the game mechanics happen behind a curtain, I'm going to go with A and leave B to go hang. A potentially inappropriate damage type is going to bother me a lot less - not at all, in fact, because I can't see it and frankly don't give a damn about that whole mechanism.


 

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
To me, it's a question of animation more than anything as nebulous as damage type. Take our old friend the bokutō. It's quite plainly made of wood and has no cutting edge, and, as such, should (by your lights) never ever ever ever ever be made available as a skin for Katana. And fair enough. Except...

The problem there is that a bokutō is, by definition, a sword made of wood - the name literally means "wooden sword" - and is expected to be wielded in exactly the same way as the metal slashy-slashy version. The great samurai Miyamoto Musashi (1584?-1645) killed more than one of his dueling opponents that way during his career. The animations, as it were, are the same. If you were to take a bokutō and wield it like (e.g.) a War Mace, you would very much be Doing It Wrong.

As you can see, this example leaves us at something of an impasse. Obviously, judged visually, such an item belongs with the Katana set. Obviously, judged by game mechanics, it has no business there. For myself, since I can see the power animations but the game mechanics happen behind a curtain, I'm going to go with A and leave B to go hang. A potentially inappropriate damage type is going to bother me a lot less - not at all, in fact, because I can't see it and frankly don't give a damn about that whole mechanism.
You may not care about internal game mechanics, but the people who work on the game do. It doesn't work for them so it won't make it to us.


 

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Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants View Post
You may not care about internal game mechanics, but the people who work on the game do.
They've got funny ways of showing it sometimes.


 

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
The problem there is that a bokutō is, by definition, a sword made of wood - the name literally means "wooden sword" - and is expected to be wielded in exactly the same way as the metal slashy-slashy version. The great samurai Miyamoto Musashi (1584?-1645) killed more than one of his dueling opponents that way during his career. The animations, as it were, are the same. If you were to take a bokutō and wield it like (e.g.) a War Mace, you would very much be Doing It Wrong.
And again, a wooden sword is still a sword, and though it's a stretch, I can see it as an option for a slashing sword set. It may not be a sword in terms of function (it doesn't cut), but if it looks like a sword, swings like a sword and looks like it can cut, it's "sword enough."

By comparison, an Escrima stick (or a club or a baseball bat, or a golf stick, etc.) is most decidedly NOT a sword. It doesn't look like a sword, it doesn't really swing like a sword, and there's no way in hell you can convince me it looks like it can cut. It's not a sword, and it has no business being in a sword set. Just in the same way as an axe doesn't belong in a sword set, a stick doesn't belong there, either.

Really, in my eyes it comes down to an "if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck" argument. A wooden sword is a duck. A wooden club isn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

ii have personally not really liked how heroes don't kill certain enemies! yes it would be extremely brutal to kill hundreds of petty theives a day, but still some enemies should be killed, like group leaders and really evil people

and some enemy groups can't exactly be put in jail can they, like Cot, why put a demon or ghost in jail, thats jsut moronic =P


 

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Originally Posted by NeonPower View Post
and some enemy groups can't exactly be put in jail can they, like Cot, why put a demon or ghost in jail, thats jsut moronic =P
Given the wail-and-disintegrate thing Circle of Thorns Spectrals do when they're defeated, I suspect they're not going to jail, they're going back to whatever hellpit the mages summoned them from.


 

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Originally Posted by CaptainMoodswing View Post
I'm sure the family of Lt Sefu Tendaji will find that very comforting. :P
what about: Ghost Widow, Scapyard, War witch, Kelly namers, the Croatia ghosts, the pirate ghosts and all the body bags?
Plot device. In other fictional worlds, you see the same thing. For example, in Forgotten Realms, Chosen of Mystra are immortal....except when they're not (Syluné, Blackstaff, Qilué). The immortality thing exists to make an actual death more impactful since it is considered the ultimate sacrifice.

Ghost Widow and Scrapyard are classic examples of the 'returned for a purpose' type of death. Kelly is an example of how Croatoa is being pulled into the spirit world (as are the ghosts there). The body bags are used to apply drama and gravity to a situation. Just like Sefu's family.

BABs is speaking in general terms. Or at least, that's how I saw it. Besides, I was under the impression that some groups (most notably the Vahzilok) have devices that can be used to override or jam the medicom devices. JD's villain character (Blood-Wolf?) has one. I vaguely recall him linking to some lore thing that implied that (though I could definitely be misremembering).

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Originally Posted by Madadh View Post
Actually, this may be the most realistic part of the game. The vast majority of criminals target unsuspecting, unprotected innocents or others criminals or borderline criminals.. Most street gang violence, for example targets other street gangs. Very few criminal organizations directly target law enforcers, police, and I would imagine (if they existed in RL), super-heroes.

Easy opponents=good for business
Tough/challenging opponents=bad for business
In general terms, this is true and it does have a historical basis in fact. But that's not really how things tend to work nowadays, with even "street gangs" getting involved in politics (Latin Kings, as an example). You'd be surprised at how well represented so-called street gangs are in the American lobbying community. That's an example of how 'tough/challenging opponents' can be good for business.


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Originally Posted by RemianenI View Post
Plot device. In other fictional worlds, you see the same thing. For example, in Forgotten Realms, Chosen of Mystra are immortal....except when they're not (Syluné, Blackstaff, Qilué). The immortality thing exists to make an actual death more impactful since it is considered the ultimate sacrifice.
Otherwise known as Plotline Death, or "Why didn't they use a Phoenix Down on Aeris?!?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.