Team Etiquette: My Misconception?


Afterimage

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad View Post
How is it important? I'd consider it far more rude to be asked if I were male or female than I would for someone to get it wrong inadvertently. If someone makes a mistake, then I politely correct them, and we move on. Getting on someone's case for the vagaries of language that are beyond their control, or an honest mistake? That's bad etiquette, not assuming most players are male unless being told otherwise.
I really don't care, one way or another. People can't see me through my computer screen ('cause of my tinfoil beanie), so I don't expect them to know. If they guess wrong, I usually correct them. Sometimes I don't, because it really doesn't matter if they know or not. I grew up in California in went to high school in the 80s. There were no "guys and dolls," it was "guys and dudes." People used those terms for both males and females and it didn't matter. Sometimes people used "Dudette." On the whole, I think I'd rather someone call me "him" by accident and 10-times over than ever have someone call me "dudette" again.

There aren't a lot of things to miss about the 80's.


~Missi

http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s

Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
There aren't a lot of things to miss about the 80's.
I recently saw pictures of me from that era.
I agree.
Boy do I agree....


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
Then step away from your computer and do something real about it. Harrassing people for pronouns and winking isn't going to remove any glass ceiling.
This is kind of silly. While it's good to work against inequality (activism, etc), it's inane to assume that just because someone is on a gaming forum right now that they never do anything. It's also inane to expect anyone who has strong feelings about inequality to devote themselves 24/7 to fighting that inequality.

Also, appealing to the fact that something's been done a certain way for a long time is a fallacy, since the problem is that it's been done badly for a long time.


Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Standoff View Post
One statement:

Next paragraph but one:

So...you're the one that gets to decide which sensitivities count? Understood.
No, I'm saying that getting offended over "happy holidays" is stupid, because there is no such thing as a war on Christmas. I find it simply impossible to believe that "happy holidays" is hurtful or insensitive, not in the same way as using insulting gendered or racial language. "Happy holidays" has been a fine usage for a very long time until someone got their nose out of joint because it was being used in place of "Merry Christmas" at some stores, and it's not even remotely plausible that any of those stores were trying to stamp out Christmas.

Also, Sam and I took that conversation private and we're all good.


Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliin View Post
By the same token, there's really not a dang thing wrong with anyone wishing anyone else a 'merry' or 'happy' anything. If someone is so oversensitive as to get upset over someone wishing them well on a different religion's holiday that's their problem really.
I didn't say there was - I don't think it's really much of a problem going the other way. It is nice when your holiday gets acknowledged, but at the same time a lot of people celebrate Christmas. I've only heard complaints about happy holidays and the so-called war on Christmas from people who celebrate Christmas.

But I don't think Sam was actually coming from that direction, even though he referenced it.

Quote:
Most people I've ever met have really been ok with it. I've been wished a 'Merry Christmas' by practicing Jews, Muslims and stringent atheists before and I do my best to try and wish folks well on their holidays as well (though I'm admittedly hazy on Muslim holidays). I've yet to be wished a Happy Hanukkah, but if it were to happen this year I fail to see how I should do anything but respond in kind to the person trying to be nice.
Yeah, this is what I do.


Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
"His"? "His"? "His"? "His"? "He's"? "His"? "His"? "His"? "He"?
Girls play too, you know
Pics or it didn't happen.

Preferably in lingerie?

And I think the path to being a good team player lies through the one-of-each-AT approach.

e.g. I'm a better Controller now that I've played a Tank and "get" how aggro and mob grouping work re: those two ATs.

I'm a better Tank now that I've played all the squishy ATs.

I'm a better Blaster because I've played a Troller and know how to let them help me mitigate incoming aggro/damage.

I'm a better Defender because I've played a Blaster and "get" how you can end up with more aggro than you intended, quite easily.

etc. etc.

When I look back at my first Blaster (Energy, of course, the worst possible starting power set) and all the stupid stuff I did back then, I cringe.

So when I see a 5-month Vet doing the same kinda stuff, I either let them make their mistakes and learn, without busting their chops, or politely give them guidance on how to avoid dying so much, and/or causing so many team wipes.

There may well be some truly bad players out there, but I think most of the ones you see making life difficult for a team, are simply new players, or primarily soloists.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
Wow, someone gave me negative feedback saying, "Overreactionary posts like these are why we can't have nice things."

If you think my post was "overractionary," I'm envious of your very calm world. What do you do to the poster's who actually call people names, use all caps, and call down doom on everything?
To be fair, the "If you care about civil rights, then stop doing whatever it is you're doing right now and go be an activist" argument is kind of ridiculous. Not that I neg repped you for that.

Also, I've had that one used on me in forums centered around activism. WTH. I just know I don't take it as a comment in good faith ever at this point.


Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

Posted

That's too bad. Clearly she has a passion for this and I think it's wasted arguing over pronouns with people on an internet forum.


~Missi

http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s

Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by __Eh__ View Post
Getting worked up over something this silly, it's really a waste of your time to be honest.
Exactly the kind of comment I'd expect from a poster whose name written backwards is "he"


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene View Post
Also, appealing to the fact that something's been done a certain way for a long time is a fallacy, since the problem is that it's been done badly for a long time.
GG was acting like Sam was the only person who ever defaulted to He/Him. I pointed out that it had been done for centuries to remind her that he wasn't alone. I didn't claim it was the best way, the only way, or defend it in any way. No fallacy, just a fact. Him/Her is still the common standard and Sam isn't alone in using it. That makes no claim as to whether it's good or bad, just that it is.

I suspect half the arguments in this thread are based on what people read into things, not what's actually being presented.


~Missi

http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s

Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
GG was acting like Sam was the only person who ever defaulted to He/Him. I pointed out that it had been done for centuries to remind her that he wasn't alone. I didn't claim it was the best way, the only way, or defend it in any way. No fallacy, just a fact. Him/Her is still the common standard and Sam isn't alone in using it. That makes no claim as to whether it's good or bad, just that it is.
No, it's a fallacy to argue that since it's been done that way for centuries, it's the right way to do it.

Quote:
I suspect half the arguments in this thread are based on what people read into things, not what's actually being presented.
Maybe, but you're not exactly telepathic, are you? Perhaps you're reading too much into what you're responding to.

Like the above paragraph, where you said that she was acting like he was the only person to ever do that. She wasn't acting that way at all. She protested his usage, but I somehow doubt that it was his usage that made her disagree with that particular kind of usage. Was it necessary to bring it up in this thread? Probably not. In a conversation actually focused on that topic, I'd say that both "she was acting like he was the only person to do that" and "reading too much into what you're responding to" are both ways to derail* a discussion. Since this is a derail of a derail, it's not so important.

* Actually, so is "Then go do important work and stop talking about this."


Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissInformed View Post
GG was acting like Sam was the only person who ever defaulted to He/Him. I pointed out that it had been done for centuries to remind her that he wasn't alone. I didn't claim it was the best way, the only way, or defend it in any way. No fallacy, just a fact. Him/Her is still the common standard and Sam isn't alone in using it. That makes no claim as to whether it's good or bad, just that it is.
I wasn't acting that way - I was just struck by how often he was using it in a short-ish post


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

English's lack of a true gender neutral pronoun is a deficiency in the language. Unfortunately it's unlikely to be rectified in any authoritative way since there is no authoritative body that is universally recognized. So if you folks (on both sides of the argument) want to set up a standards committee for the English language and try and get it accepted by the majority of the world's English speaking populace, more power to you.

The common usage (although one disliked by certain posters) is to use the masculine pronoun in cases of non specific singular when non specific plural pronouns would scan improperly. This is objected to by those who subscribe to linguistic determinism amongst other theoretical takes on the subject.

A couple of commonly suggested alternatives is the inclusion of a gender non-specific pronoun or the removal of gender specific pronouns altogether (not as terrible an idea as it initially sounds to some, although the phrase "neutering our language" springs rather humorously to mind).

That's pretty much the end of constructive discussion on this subject. Because no one has the power to actually make these changes people just have viewpoints and throw them at each other, much like monkeys and certain other substances. So any further discussion along this topic is pretty much non constructive, and would be a violation of Rule #5 of the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines.

If you want to talk to someone about it, PM me directly. It's about the only way not to violate the rules on the subject and I can reply as I get time, not as it occurs.

Now if we want to start in on real deficiencies in the English Language, lets start talking about our numerical vocabulary and how it impedes the learning of math in young children. That drives me nuts (I'm trying to teach a 1st grader the concept of a 1's value and a 10's value at the present).


-Mod8-

If you are using Latin in your post you are probably trolling

Have a question? Try the PlayNC Knowledge Base

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Exactly the kind of comment I'd expect from a poster whose name written backwards is "he"
That was quite skilled. 1 point to you and you get to wear the burger queen hat for the day.


Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running

I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!

You are in a maze of twisty little passages

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA View Post
That was quite skilled. 1 point to you and you get to wear the burger queen hat for the day.
I shall wear it with pride


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

GAH! I haven't done an actual post-by-post count, but I believe the derail posts now outnumber the posts addressing the thread topic. Does anyone else find this a bit ironic considering that the original topic revolved around etiquette?

I don't dismiss or magnify the importance of the language issue addressed. For those who posted again and again and again on the derail side of things, my opinion is that, whatever your stance, you make it and yourself look foolish by insisting on arguing your point in this particular arena instead of starting your own particular thread on the subject.

Thanks to all those who replied to the original issue queried. You've helped me clarify the issue to my satisfaction.

Sheesh, you win, internet authorities! Unsubscribing from my own thread, a first for me. Have fun!


M. Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me...it was Tuesday.
-- Street Fighter (1994)

McClane: Hey, thanks for saving my daughter's life.
Farrell: What was I going to do?
McClane: That's what makes you "that guy."
-- Live Free or Die Hard (2007)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I shall wear it with pride
I actually came home from work and sat there with an open mouth for a bit when I noticed you had actually went out of your way to make my forumhandle a possible point for gender discrimination :P

I will let you in on a wee secret of mine, it's actually the name I picked because I couldn't think of a name.. I had tried several, only to find they were in use, then went for characters and ran into 'eh... now which one...' because I have both male and female characters. I decided to go with 'eh' to avoid confusion over gender. I kept it neutral. And you just demolished that

But, to go back to what I said that triggered, I didn't mean any offense, it's just something that I thought by now was accepted to happen, in the dutch language genderless words are treated as male as well. Aside from the changes they introduced in overall spelling a few years back though. Then things got more complex with multiple spellings for one word deemed okay, some words that suddenly changed (best example would be pancake going to panscake, and yes the explanation is there, but I never saw the logic to that). It's not just the english language that suffers this, it's all languages everywhere.

Oh and a boat is addressed as female indeed, but apparently only after it's christened. Before that it's an it.. which makes me wonder about something..

How do you ladies in this game address the child in the mother's womb, when you have no idea whether it will be a boy or a girl? Surely not as an 'it'...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by __Eh__ View Post
How do you ladies in this game address the child in the mother's womb, when you have no idea whether it will be a boy or a girl? Surely not as an 'it'...
In English, "it" is a pronoun reserved for inanimate objects or sufficiently non-sympathetic animals. However, the "third gender" is not always the same in all languages. In mine, for instance, it's called a middle gender, and is used to refer to nouns ending in a few specific pronouns, usually reserved either for something small, something insignificant or something strange, or just for random things my ancestors decided were a "middle gender." Like bicycle, lake, button an so on. And, yes, even child. So, my gut instinct is to say the same thing in English - it, the child.

On the one hand, English's lack of a STRONG gender-neutral pronoun makes it hard to talk about people in general, not one gender in specific. On the other hand, it also makes it hard to talk about small animals without either demeaning them into objects, or checking out to see if it's a boy or a girl. In my language, for instance, a dog is always an "it." In English, a grown-up adult dog is usually referred to as either he or she, which is kind of confusing if you're addressing someone else's dog.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I'm going to make an effort to merge the OP's topic with the other topic that mysteriously popped up in this thread.

On teams, I usually have no problem with being referred to according to the gender of my character, since they're all female and so am I (this was a decision I made on purpose to avoid the kind of confusion that could result from me playing a male character). However, since this is a computer game, and since computer games have a higher percentage of male players than female players, I occasionally run into someone insisting that I'm a guy, even after I tell them I'm not.

Why do they do this? They don't know me in RL, so how would they know? I'm around my dad and my brother more than my mom (even though we all live in the same house), so sometimes I "sound" like a guy. I'm also fairly into sci-fi movies and books (although not the military sci-fi books), which leads some to dispute my proclaimed gender (there are several other facts that would "rule against" my femininity, but I don't want this post to be my usual wall of text). I've had several people conclude that I'm a gay guy, and even one who was sure that I "used to be a guy". This gives me endless headaches when it happens, and usually leads to me leaving the team.

So please, if someone corrects your use of their gender-specific pronoun when you're on a team with them, use what they want you to. Don't insist that they're not what they say they are. You just end up looking like a jerk.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
Not true at all. There are numerous missions where some special benefit (badge progress, a temp power) is conveyed only to the player who clicks the glowie. Courtesy dictates that the mission owner should always have first shot at those glowies.

And if someone isn't knowledgeable about these circumstances, then don't touch!
The Wheel of Destruction arc comes to mind. Four glowies with temp powers. I *never* take a PUG along for this one.

Bank missions - Yes, some players do care about those Weapons Deal temp powers.

There are others. If someone insists on clicking glowies that aren't theirs after being warned I will kick them from the team.


Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.

 

Posted

Don't those temp powers only last, like, one mission? Unless they changed it, you lose them at the end of the arc, which is one mission after you get them.

I know I made a long list and all, but there's no reason to be overly anal retentive. Have fun, don't obsess over missing minor rewards.

__________________
Currently listening to R.E.M.'s Automatic for the People


Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucretia_MacEvil View Post
On teams, I usually have no problem with being referred to according to the gender of my character, since they're all female and so am I (this was a decision I made on purpose to avoid the kind of confusion that could result from me playing a male character). However, since this is a computer game, and since computer games have a higher percentage of male players than female players, I occasionally run into someone insisting that I'm a guy, even after I tell them I'm not.

Why do they do this? They don't know me in RL, so how would they know? I'm around my dad and my brother more than my mom (even though we all live in the same house), so sometimes I "sound" like a guy. I'm also fairly into sci-fi movies and books (although not the military sci-fi books), which leads some to dispute my proclaimed gender (there are several other facts that would "rule against" my femininity, but I don't want this post to be my usual wall of text). I've had several people conclude that I'm a gay guy, and even one who was sure that I "used to be a guy". This gives me endless headaches when it happens, and usually leads to me leaving the team.
Many men are insecure idiots who feel threatened by a woman who doesn't fit their narrow-minded view of what a woman should be. If a woman ends up being outgoing, shares their interests and acts like one of them, even a little, they feel their masculinity threatened, and could resort to all manner of stupidity to try to preserve it, denying the truth being the most readily available. I've met a few of those, myself, both online and in real life, and I was never charmed. I wouldn't fault you for quitting a team with such people on it.

And I have to agree with you in general. It's good form to address people however they wish to be addressed. I generally don't care what the gender of people I play with is, as the things for which gender matters rarely occur over the 'net, and mentions of it come up equally rarely. For that reason, addressing a person by the gender of their characters is usually a solid fall-back when you have no other information to work with.

*edit*
There is this misconception that women don't play female characters, so meeting one who does can cause some men's brains to crash and reboot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
*edit*
There is this misconception that women don't play female characters, so meeting one who does can cause some men's brains to crash and reboot.

I wish you hadn't disabled rep so I could just +rep you for this fine vision, but since you have I am forced to post for no other reason than congratulating you on making me LOL.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucretia_MacEvil View Post
I'm going to make an effort to merge the OP's topic with the other topic that mysteriously popped up in this thread.

On teams, I usually have no problem with being referred to according to the gender of my character, since they're all female and so am I (this was a decision I made on purpose to avoid the kind of confusion that could result from me playing a male character). However, since this is a computer game, and since computer games have a higher percentage of male players than female players, I occasionally run into someone insisting that I'm a guy, even after I tell them I'm not.

Why do they do this? They don't know me in RL, so how would they know? I'm around my dad and my brother more than my mom (even though we all live in the same house), so sometimes I "sound" like a guy. I'm also fairly into sci-fi movies and books (although not the military sci-fi books), which leads some to dispute my proclaimed gender (there are several other facts that would "rule against" my femininity, but I don't want this post to be my usual wall of text). I've had several people conclude that I'm a gay guy, and even one who was sure that I "used to be a guy". This gives me endless headaches when it happens, and usually leads to me leaving the team.

So please, if someone corrects your use of their gender-specific pronoun when you're on a team with them, use what they want you to. Don't insist that they're not what they say they are. You just end up looking like a jerk.
Doesnt matter to me if you are man, woman or ardvark. I want to defeat npcs with you, not mate with you.


Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running

I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!

You are in a maze of twisty little passages