Team Etiquette: My Misconception?
Then step away from your computer and do something real about it. Harrassing people for pronouns and winking isn't going to remove any glass ceiling.
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Also, appealing to the fact that something's been done a certain way for a long time is a fallacy, since the problem is that it's been done badly for a long time.
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One statement:
Next paragraph but one: So...you're the one that gets to decide which sensitivities count? Understood. |
Also, Sam and I took that conversation private and we're all good.
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By the same token, there's really not a dang thing wrong with anyone wishing anyone else a 'merry' or 'happy' anything. If someone is so oversensitive as to get upset over someone wishing them well on a different religion's holiday that's their problem really.
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But I don't think Sam was actually coming from that direction, even though he referenced it.
Most people I've ever met have really been ok with it. I've been wished a 'Merry Christmas' by practicing Jews, Muslims and stringent atheists before and I do my best to try and wish folks well on their holidays as well (though I'm admittedly hazy on Muslim holidays). I've yet to be wished a Happy Hanukkah, but if it were to happen this year I fail to see how I should do anything but respond in kind to the person trying to be nice. |
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"His"? "His"? "His"? "His"? "He's"? "His"? "His"? "His"? "He"?
Girls play too, you know |
Preferably in lingerie?
And I think the path to being a good team player lies through the one-of-each-AT approach.
e.g. I'm a better Controller now that I've played a Tank and "get" how aggro and mob grouping work re: those two ATs.
I'm a better Tank now that I've played all the squishy ATs.
I'm a better Blaster because I've played a Troller and know how to let them help me mitigate incoming aggro/damage.
I'm a better Defender because I've played a Blaster and "get" how you can end up with more aggro than you intended, quite easily.
etc. etc.
When I look back at my first Blaster (Energy, of course, the worst possible starting power set) and all the stupid stuff I did back then, I cringe.
So when I see a 5-month Vet doing the same kinda stuff, I either let them make their mistakes and learn, without busting their chops, or politely give them guidance on how to avoid dying so much, and/or causing so many team wipes.
There may well be some truly bad players out there, but I think most of the ones you see making life difficult for a team, are simply new players, or primarily soloists.
Wow, someone gave me negative feedback saying, "Overreactionary posts like these are why we can't have nice things."
If you think my post was "overractionary," I'm envious of your very calm world. What do you do to the poster's who actually call people names, use all caps, and call down doom on everything? |
Also, I've had that one used on me in forums centered around activism. WTH. I just know I don't take it as a comment in good faith ever at this point.
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That's too bad. Clearly she has a passion for this and I think it's wasted arguing over pronouns with people on an internet forum.
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Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Also, appealing to the fact that something's been done a certain way for a long time is a fallacy, since the problem is that it's been done badly for a long time.
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I suspect half the arguments in this thread are based on what people read into things, not what's actually being presented.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
GG was acting like Sam was the only person who ever defaulted to He/Him. I pointed out that it had been done for centuries to remind her that he wasn't alone. I didn't claim it was the best way, the only way, or defend it in any way. No fallacy, just a fact. Him/Her is still the common standard and Sam isn't alone in using it. That makes no claim as to whether it's good or bad, just that it is.
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I suspect half the arguments in this thread are based on what people read into things, not what's actually being presented. |
Like the above paragraph, where you said that she was acting like he was the only person to ever do that. She wasn't acting that way at all. She protested his usage, but I somehow doubt that it was his usage that made her disagree with that particular kind of usage. Was it necessary to bring it up in this thread? Probably not. In a conversation actually focused on that topic, I'd say that both "she was acting like he was the only person to do that" and "reading too much into what you're responding to" are both ways to derail* a discussion. Since this is a derail of a derail, it's not so important.
* Actually, so is "Then go do important work and stop talking about this."
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GG was acting like Sam was the only person who ever defaulted to He/Him. I pointed out that it had been done for centuries to remind her that he wasn't alone. I didn't claim it was the best way, the only way, or defend it in any way. No fallacy, just a fact. Him/Her is still the common standard and Sam isn't alone in using it. That makes no claim as to whether it's good or bad, just that it is.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
English's lack of a true gender neutral pronoun is a deficiency in the language. Unfortunately it's unlikely to be rectified in any authoritative way since there is no authoritative body that is universally recognized. So if you folks (on both sides of the argument) want to set up a standards committee for the English language and try and get it accepted by the majority of the world's English speaking populace, more power to you.
The common usage (although one disliked by certain posters) is to use the masculine pronoun in cases of non specific singular when non specific plural pronouns would scan improperly. This is objected to by those who subscribe to linguistic determinism amongst other theoretical takes on the subject.
A couple of commonly suggested alternatives is the inclusion of a gender non-specific pronoun or the removal of gender specific pronouns altogether (not as terrible an idea as it initially sounds to some, although the phrase "neutering our language" springs rather humorously to mind).
That's pretty much the end of constructive discussion on this subject. Because no one has the power to actually make these changes people just have viewpoints and throw them at each other, much like monkeys and certain other substances. So any further discussion along this topic is pretty much non constructive, and would be a violation of Rule #5 of the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines.
If you want to talk to someone about it, PM me directly. It's about the only way not to violate the rules on the subject and I can reply as I get time, not as it occurs.
Now if we want to start in on real deficiencies in the English Language, lets start talking about our numerical vocabulary and how it impedes the learning of math in young children. That drives me nuts (I'm trying to teach a 1st grader the concept of a 1's value and a 10's value at the present).
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Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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GAH! I haven't done an actual post-by-post count, but I believe the derail posts now outnumber the posts addressing the thread topic. Does anyone else find this a bit ironic considering that the original topic revolved around etiquette?
I don't dismiss or magnify the importance of the language issue addressed. For those who posted again and again and again on the derail side of things, my opinion is that, whatever your stance, you make it and yourself look foolish by insisting on arguing your point in this particular arena instead of starting your own particular thread on the subject.
Thanks to all those who replied to the original issue queried. You've helped me clarify the issue to my satisfaction.
Sheesh, you win, internet authorities! Unsubscribing from my own thread, a first for me. Have fun!
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McClane: That's what makes you "that guy."
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I will let you in on a wee secret of mine, it's actually the name I picked because I couldn't think of a name.. I had tried several, only to find they were in use, then went for characters and ran into 'eh... now which one...' because I have both male and female characters. I decided to go with 'eh' to avoid confusion over gender. I kept it neutral. And you just demolished that
But, to go back to what I said that triggered, I didn't mean any offense, it's just something that I thought by now was accepted to happen, in the dutch language genderless words are treated as male as well. Aside from the changes they introduced in overall spelling a few years back though. Then things got more complex with multiple spellings for one word deemed okay, some words that suddenly changed (best example would be pancake going to panscake, and yes the explanation is there, but I never saw the logic to that). It's not just the english language that suffers this, it's all languages everywhere.
Oh and a boat is addressed as female indeed, but apparently only after it's christened. Before that it's an it.. which makes me wonder about something..
How do you ladies in this game address the child in the mother's womb, when you have no idea whether it will be a boy or a girl? Surely not as an 'it'...
How do you ladies in this game address the child in the mother's womb, when you have no idea whether it will be a boy or a girl? Surely not as an 'it'...
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On the one hand, English's lack of a STRONG gender-neutral pronoun makes it hard to talk about people in general, not one gender in specific. On the other hand, it also makes it hard to talk about small animals without either demeaning them into objects, or checking out to see if it's a boy or a girl. In my language, for instance, a dog is always an "it." In English, a grown-up adult dog is usually referred to as either he or she, which is kind of confusing if you're addressing someone else's dog.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm going to make an effort to merge the OP's topic with the other topic that mysteriously popped up in this thread.
On teams, I usually have no problem with being referred to according to the gender of my character, since they're all female and so am I (this was a decision I made on purpose to avoid the kind of confusion that could result from me playing a male character). However, since this is a computer game, and since computer games have a higher percentage of male players than female players, I occasionally run into someone insisting that I'm a guy, even after I tell them I'm not.
Why do they do this? They don't know me in RL, so how would they know? I'm around my dad and my brother more than my mom (even though we all live in the same house), so sometimes I "sound" like a guy. I'm also fairly into sci-fi movies and books (although not the military sci-fi books), which leads some to dispute my proclaimed gender (there are several other facts that would "rule against" my femininity, but I don't want this post to be my usual wall of text). I've had several people conclude that I'm a gay guy, and even one who was sure that I "used to be a guy". This gives me endless headaches when it happens, and usually leads to me leaving the team.
So please, if someone corrects your use of their gender-specific pronoun when you're on a team with them, use what they want you to. Don't insist that they're not what they say they are. You just end up looking like a jerk.
Not true at all. There are numerous missions where some special benefit (badge progress, a temp power) is conveyed only to the player who clicks the glowie. Courtesy dictates that the mission owner should always have first shot at those glowies.
And if someone isn't knowledgeable about these circumstances, then don't touch! |
Bank missions - Yes, some players do care about those Weapons Deal temp powers.
There are others. If someone insists on clicking glowies that aren't theirs after being warned I will kick them from the team.
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Don't those temp powers only last, like, one mission? Unless they changed it, you lose them at the end of the arc, which is one mission after you get them.
I know I made a long list and all, but there's no reason to be overly anal retentive. Have fun, don't obsess over missing minor rewards.
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On teams, I usually have no problem with being referred to according to the gender of my character, since they're all female and so am I (this was a decision I made on purpose to avoid the kind of confusion that could result from me playing a male character). However, since this is a computer game, and since computer games have a higher percentage of male players than female players, I occasionally run into someone insisting that I'm a guy, even after I tell them I'm not.
Why do they do this? They don't know me in RL, so how would they know? I'm around my dad and my brother more than my mom (even though we all live in the same house), so sometimes I "sound" like a guy. I'm also fairly into sci-fi movies and books (although not the military sci-fi books), which leads some to dispute my proclaimed gender (there are several other facts that would "rule against" my femininity, but I don't want this post to be my usual wall of text). I've had several people conclude that I'm a gay guy, and even one who was sure that I "used to be a guy". This gives me endless headaches when it happens, and usually leads to me leaving the team. |
And I have to agree with you in general. It's good form to address people however they wish to be addressed. I generally don't care what the gender of people I play with is, as the things for which gender matters rarely occur over the 'net, and mentions of it come up equally rarely. For that reason, addressing a person by the gender of their characters is usually a solid fall-back when you have no other information to work with.
*edit*
There is this misconception that women don't play female characters, so meeting one who does can cause some men's brains to crash and reboot.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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*edit*
There is this misconception that women don't play female characters, so meeting one who does can cause some men's brains to crash and reboot. |
I wish you hadn't disabled rep so I could just +rep you for this fine vision, but since you have I am forced to post for no other reason than congratulating you on making me LOL.
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I'm going to make an effort to merge the OP's topic with the other topic that mysteriously popped up in this thread.
On teams, I usually have no problem with being referred to according to the gender of my character, since they're all female and so am I (this was a decision I made on purpose to avoid the kind of confusion that could result from me playing a male character). However, since this is a computer game, and since computer games have a higher percentage of male players than female players, I occasionally run into someone insisting that I'm a guy, even after I tell them I'm not. Why do they do this? They don't know me in RL, so how would they know? I'm around my dad and my brother more than my mom (even though we all live in the same house), so sometimes I "sound" like a guy. I'm also fairly into sci-fi movies and books (although not the military sci-fi books), which leads some to dispute my proclaimed gender (there are several other facts that would "rule against" my femininity, but I don't want this post to be my usual wall of text). I've had several people conclude that I'm a gay guy, and even one who was sure that I "used to be a guy". This gives me endless headaches when it happens, and usually leads to me leaving the team. So please, if someone corrects your use of their gender-specific pronoun when you're on a team with them, use what they want you to. Don't insist that they're not what they say they are. You just end up looking like a jerk. |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
There aren't a lot of things to miss about the 80's.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!