Team Etiquette: My Misconception?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-11 21:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Actually, I, and lots of other people I know, call boats "it" |
Originally Posted by Shadowe
It is a convention. Just as it is a convention to refer to boats using the feminine pronoun. I don't see you asking for that to change.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
More on point for the thread:
I try to work on two guidelines (not rules) when I team. When someone else is in charge, I try to follow their lead and support with suggestions. When I'm in charge, I try to make it clear what my expectations are, so my teammates don't have to guess about whether I want glowies, etc. |
Excellent two guidelines. I tend to run along the same lines and rarely run into teaming troubles, save the occasional wierdness I don't understand. Like the "Don't use Seeds of Confusion!" when I was on my Plant/Storm or the "Let X (a tank) herd up before going in" when I was on my own Tank.
I usually just go along with it.
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I do think you were hasty in kicking him. XP-wise, you'd probably get more from more mission complete bonuses over time than clearing every spawn in the mission, every time. Even if you did specifically state that you were going to do a defeat all for every mission, I'd have given the player the benefit of the doubt as it was probably done out of habit especially since exiting as soon as the mission is done is natural. You and the rest of the team could well have continued to doing your mission sweep without the one player who exited. He'd miss out on some XP and will be well aware of what is expected for the next mission. |
This particular mission could be ended by defeating a boss, and a player who had said nothing at all during the debates defeated the boss (who was in or near about the 5th mob) and immediately exited the mission. The team leader and myself were incensed; this player decided for all of us to end the mission. I see now that the team leader's mistake was not clearly stating how she wanted things to go. She kicked the "offending" player and half the team seemed mystified/exasperated/unhappy with that action. The player himself asked (in tell) a few minutes after why he'd been kicked. Our perception at the time was that he knew damn well why he'd been kicked; thanks to the help from all your replies, I see now that there's a good possibility he actually didn't know, and we were just assigning selfish motivations to his behavior at the time where none actually existed. |
In terms of the glowie clicking that most people are focusing on, as an old timer, I don't care about the glowies anymore while teamed. I'm sure they're still fun to do for the new players, but for me, eh. However, I am peeved when someone decides that clicking a glowie has more priority that participating in fighting the enemies guarding the glowie. Finish the fight and then the glowies can be clicked at leisure. This is especially so with the glowies that trigger ambushes.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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Gonna have to disagree with you (a rarity) on this one Sam. Your stuff about spending "years trying to write around it" strikes me as protesting too much, when 'they' is only 2 letters more than 'he', and 'their' is one one more than 'his. I don't think you're justified in thinking that too onerous.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Lacking a proper, grammatically correct and non-cumbersome way to say this, I would still choose to say "he" over "they" or "he/she." I've spent years trying to write around it, but I inevitably keep writing myself into corners and ending up having to reword entire sentences for no reason other than because enforced gender neutrality is unnatural and forced, purely from a language standpoint.
That, and I'm getting more than a little tired of this endless drive towards complete and utter correctness, in that every word I utter, regardless of context or intent, has to be mindful of everyone else's sensitivities. It doesn't have to be, nor would I WANT it to be. It's cumbersome, it's obstructive, it's restrictive, and it's downright unnecessary. Unless you, or anyone else, assumed I meant that I would show this courtesy to a team-mate if and only if he were a man, but would decidedly NOT show this same courtesy if he were a woman, I don't see why it has to be a problem. And, at least to me, that's not how my statement came off. Seriously, this is getting to ridiculous levels, like people deciding not to wish each other Merry Christmas because not everyone celebrates Christmans and people who don't might feel "left out." Let's not reduce everything to absolutes, please. Not everything is a sign of segregation. |
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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"They" lacks a -self variant that isn't unambiguously plural. I can't use "themselves" when I am referring to what is clearly a single person. Even "you," a pronoun which is identical between singular and plural, has two -self variants - "yourself" for singular and "yourselves" for plural. In general, the selves suffix assumes plural just on its own, because it comes from from the actual plural word "selves."|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Gonna have to disagree with you (a rarity) on this one Sam. Your stuff about spending "years trying to write around it" strikes me as protesting too much, when 'they' is only 2 letters more than 'he', and 'their' is one one more than 'his. I don't think you're justified in thinking that too onerous.
Eco. |
I can kind of bend my brain and say "they didn't use their power" to mean "he/she didn't use his/her power" if enough context confirms I mean a singular person. But can you honestly tell me that expanding "he used his power on himself" into "they used their power on themselves" can in any way, shape or form be read as singular? My brain refuses to accept this.
I said I spent years "writing around" this, e.i. trying to write using "their" in place of a personal pronoun. And I wasn't exaggerating. Back when I first started posting here in 2004, I did my best to use "their." I went out of my way to not state "he" or "she." Only recently (late-year 2009) did I finally concede and drop this. Why? I kept painting myself into such corners that I could simply not end a sentence using "their" where ending it using "his" would have been simple. So I reworded, rewrote, retried and generally went through a lot of trouble, until I finally gave up. Trying to rectify what has got to be one of the most insignificant quirks of the English language just isn't worth the effort.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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They also create a lot of those really trampy costumes.|
Originally Posted by Solicio
Moral of the story--women play the game (I know, I've seen them), but no one believes this to be the case.
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Etiquette Tip: Just because you're playing an Epic Archetype doesn't mean that you get to call the shots and can ignore the team leader. There are way too many n00bs out there with these characters who don't actually know how to play the game yet think that they are experts.
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But we have something better, don't we? 'they' and 'their'. Getting it approved by society at large comes in many forms, advocation in internet forums, for example.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Sam's just using the language we have. Unless you can come up with something better and get it approved by society at large
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Once upon a time, 'negro' was deemed an acceptable term of reference for a certain type of human by 'society at large'. In 50 years, maybe some scholar will look back at us using 'he' in a gender-nuetral way, and they'll shake their head and wonder at the 'innocent' prejudice of their ancestors.
But we don't need to wait till then to start the ball rolling!
Embrace progressivism! Free the language from the shackles of outmoded patriarchy! Make 'he' go back where it belongs!
Eco
PS I view this as an interesting topic for friendly social discussion.
EDIT: I think that, with respect, Sam, sometimes you're too concerned with 'perfect' grammar when it comes to English. In my view, English grammar isn't a fixed thing, unchangeable and inviolate, so their can never be perfect grammar. Grammar that's 'correct' for the moment, maybe. One day, maybe, 'themself' will be an acceptable solution to the problem you posit. If so, who are you to say that someone using it now is wrong?
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Here is my question, and this is an actual question, not an argument: what is the proper term now? "African-American" doesn't cut it when you're not actually IN America, and English is used all over the world. Like in the UK, say, and African-British doesn't strike me as an actual term. I've found myself without a good way of saying this so many times it's not even funny.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Once upon a time, 'negro' was deemed an acceptable term of reference for a certain type of human by 'society at large'. In 50 years, maybe some scholar will look back at us using 'he' in a gender-nuetral way, and they'll shake their head and wonder at the 'innocent' prejudice of their ancestors.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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One statement:
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Next paragraph but one:|
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
And I didn't say that every word you utter has to be mindful of everyone else's sensitivities, but when you deliberately choose to not give a rat's *** about any particular person's (or a group of people's) sensitivities, it does kinda send a message, you know?
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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
Hahaha. "War on Christmas". Epic bull ****. It doesn't exist, and there's not a damned thing wrong with saying "Happy Holidays" if you're not oversensitive and defensive about your cultural preferences not being central to everyone.
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For me, I always refer to a person by the gender of their toon unless I know them. Yes, I know some people get bent by that sometimes but honestly I don't much care. This is a Video Game, which bathroom you use is totally irrelevant to how you play.
Sometimes you get the bear; sometimes he get you, rips your head off, sucks out your eyes, pulls out your spleen, humps your leg and pees in your boots
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By the same token, there's really not a dang thing wrong with anyone wishing anyone else a 'merry' or 'happy' anything. If someone is so oversensitive as to get upset over someone wishing them well on a different religion's holiday that's their problem really.|
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
Hahaha. "War on Christmas". Epic bull ****. It doesn't exist, and there's not a damned thing wrong with saying "Happy Holidays" if you're not oversensitive and defensive about your cultural preferences not being central to everyone.
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Most people I've ever met have really been ok with it. I've been wished a 'Merry Christmas' by practicing Jews, Muslims and stringent atheists before and I do my best to try and wish folks well on their holidays as well (though I'm admittedly hazy on Muslim holidays). I've yet to be wished a Happy Hanukkah, but if it were to happen this year I fail to see how I should do anything but respond in kind to the person trying to be nice.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So has inequality
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Originally Posted by MissInformed
Then step away from your computer and do something real about it. Harrassing people for pronouns and winking isn't going to remove any glass ceiling.
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If you think my post was "overractionary," I'm envious of your very calm world. What do you do to the poster's who actually call people names, use all caps, and call down doom on everything?
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
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Hell, I've had a lvl 50 hero for over a year or so, and I STILL find it hard to play HEATs right! |
Originally Posted by Lazarus
They also create a lot of those really trampy costumes.
Etiquette Tip: Just because you're playing an Epic Archetype doesn't mean that you get to call the shots and can ignore the team leader. There are way too many n00bs out there with these characters who don't actually know how to play the game yet think that they are experts. |
But yes, sadly and seriously it is true. Saying 'I have x many 50s' is no real indication of gamer skill. And I really, really dislike people who use 'I'm an x month veteran' to try and add weight to their arguments.
Hint: It doesn't. It really reall doesn't.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Tbh, that won't be GG. I don't thing she'd neg rep anyone when a smiley is her favoured weapon |
Originally Posted by MissInformed
Wow, someone gave me negative feedback saying, "Overreactionary posts like these are why we can't have nice things."
If you think my post was "overractionary," I'm envious of your very calm world. What do you do to the poster's who actually call people names, use all caps, and call down doom on everything? |
.Random tools seem to get a kick out of neg-repping with no comment.
Hence why I have it disabled. There's really no point to it.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I forgot about glowies that grant temporary powers. They are pretty rare. Still, most of the time, clicking on a glowie does not help or harm. The original poster didn't specify such glowies, so I still assume that he meant any glowie, not just a glowie that grants the clicker a reward.|
Originally Posted by Radionuclide
You are correct that there are no standard guidelines.
However, it not quite accurate that it does not matter who clicks the glowies. Several missions have glowies which grant temporary powers. IMO, it is polite to give the mission holder the opportunity to say whether they wish to retain that power. YMMV, however. --Rad |
There are no standards of behaviour that determine 'team etiquette'. Every person who responded to the OP, has slightly different opinions about courtesy, politeness and etiquette. And until a 'Miss Manners' steps forward to write such a guide, and gets the majority of the players to adhere to it, people are going to disagree about what is 'team etiquette'.
IMO, the best way to handle these kinds of situations is through communication. Talk to your teammates before a conflict occurs. Don't assume that anyone looks at things the same way that you do.
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You look like you're implying I gave you bad rep |
Originally Posted by MissInformed
Wow, someone gave me negative feedback saying, "Overreactionary posts like these are why we can't have nice things."
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First, I don't give anyone rep for anything, becuase it's just silly, second, I have my own rep comment window closed, and third, I'd put a "-" between "over" and "reactionary", because the 2 "Rs" together doesn't look so good
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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We point them to the CO forum?
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Originally Posted by MissInformed
What do you do to the poster's who actually call people names, use all caps, and call down doom on everything?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It doesn't look to me like she was implying anything. She stated a fact. Her use of the word 'you' wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the anonymous person who gave her the negative reputation. In fact her usage of the words 'somebody' and 'you' neatly avoids using gender specific pronouns. She could have said 'she gave me a negative reputation', but that would have implied that she knew that the gender of the person was female.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You look like you're implying I gave you bad rep
First, I don't give anyone rep for anything, becuase it's just silly, second, I have my own rep comment window closed, and third, I'd put a "-" between "over" and "reactionary", because the 2 "Rs" together doesn't look so good |
By the way, what is this 'reputation' stuff good for? If you get enough can you trade it in for something good? If you lose enough, do they take something away? I never noticed it until the last couple of days.
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Well, she put it in a post quoting me |
Originally Posted by Afterimage
It doesn't look to me like she was implying anything.
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| By the way, what is this 'reputation' stuff good for? If you get enough can you trade it in for something good? If you lose enough, do they take something away? I never noticed it until the last couple of days. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I know it wasn't her.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Tbh, that won't be GG. I don't thing she'd neg rep anyone when a smiley is her favoured weapon
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~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
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No, I implied nothing. I said "Someone gave me..." If I wanted anyone to think I thought you did it, I'd have used your name, not a pronoun. I didn't use your name because I know it didn't come from you.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You look like you're implying I gave you bad rep
First, I don't give anyone rep for anything, becuase it's just silly, second, I have my own rep comment window closed, and third, I'd put a "-" between "over" and "reactionary", because the 2 "Rs" together doesn't look so good |
I quoted you for context because the reply I was given the rep for was in response to your post, the one I quoted.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
Adam said he wants his rib back.
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He can have it. Lilith came first.
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Originally Posted by SlimPickens
Adam said he wants his rib back.
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~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
Good lord...
I usually don't bother reading entire threads, but this one had more than cake, there was icing. The cold kind.
While mostly everyone keeps a civil tone, I was actually slightly shocked by the way people react to something as trivial as genderselection for sentences. Getting worked up over something this silly, it's really a waste of your time to be honest.
I have always thought the basic principle of the written word was that it would be understood by the reader. If the reader then gets all emotional about being addressed in the document as him while being a her or vice versa.. get over it please. Nearly all the documentation that gets put into manuals address the reader in the male form. Not because the author thought women wouldn't get it, but because it's neutral. I don't mean to be rude by saying this, but the way you ladies have reacted in this thread, you make it sound like you want the word 'mankind' abolished.
On the subject of the OP though, I think most rules have been named, though I'd like to add one more (since everyone is already heavy into grammar):
Use a language people actually understand. Don't try to be cool and abbreviate every single word. It is silly.
Oh and lastly, can't remember who brought it up, I wholeheartedly agree that email at work makes you type long sentences when you can't tell gender from the name you received mail from (been having that a lot lately) hahaha!!
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork