Team Etiquette: My Misconception?


Afterimage

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klatteja View Post
Am I completely off-base?
Noop.

---
General reply:

I think teaming etiquette comes down to: being aware that it ain't all about you.

More specifically: you should recognize that those aren't NPCs you're teamed with. They're other players, other people. They're not there just for your convenience. They're not there to facilitate your enjoyment at the expense of their own. It's not their obligation to wait on you, make concessions for you, or conform to your own playstyle.

And not only are they other people, they're very likely nothing like you at all. So don't assume that they are. They could be anyone, from anywhere.

Keeping all this firmly in mind should pretty much nix any etiquette questions that might arise for you. Playstyles and expectations change from team to team, from group to group. Some people care about things that other people don't care about at all. If you've a question about something, simply ask. And if you're leading a team (or if you're a mission holder), let any expectations you may have be known. Don't expect anyone to be a mind reader.

"Glowies" are a good example of this. Those of us who've been playing for a long time tend to have a "don't touch unless it's yours" attitude about glowies. But that's because, when we started playing, there was a good chance a glowy would award something, be it a temp power, an inspiration, or an inf/xp bonus.

But the game has changed, and thus so has the culture and etiquette surrounding it. Nowadays, most glowies don't give you anything at all, and the goal is usually just to get them out of the way. So it shouldn't be a surprise that a lot of players have a cavalier attitude about making with the clickies. To them, that's just the way the game is played.

So if you don't want anyone else clicking your glowies: just say so. Somebody frantically clicking glowies with wild abandon isn't necessarily out to ruin your day or steal from you. They're probably just operating under a different understanding of the etiquette.

And a special note for team leaders: don't be afraid to boot people. I've seen many teams fall apart, simply because the team leader was "too nice" (read: too timid) to dump someone who was obviously a problem. If someone is making the group wait 5 minutes out of every 15, isn't staying with the program, is "leeching", or is just being generally crass... please... just boot them. It's a responsibility that comes with that star.


The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax View Post
Yep usually if I find one I call it and wait to see what the mish owner wants to do. Most of the time I just get "Click it" back but it's always good to ask.
Way back when... The nem staff glowie award went to whomever clicked the glowie in the mission instead of the mission holder. Man that really got folks mad when someone would run and steal the staff. They changed that quite a while ago.

I'm hard pressed to think of any current missions where it makes a difference who clicks what. Maybe the hydra tf weapons?

Anyway, I still think it is polite to defer to the team leader on glowie clicks. Same with team splits in a missions. Follow the leader unless he/she specifically has instructed the team to follow the tank.


We don' need no stinkin' signatures!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suspicious_Pkg View Post
I'm hard pressed to think of any current missions where it makes a difference who clicks what. Maybe the hydra tf weapons?
I think the Safeguard weapons deal temp powers only go to the clicker, but the badge credit for it goes to everyone.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
"She" and "her" are censored? I'm sure some people might quite like that
Ya, reminds some of us of the old days where women were better seen than heard.









































I'M JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suspicious_Pkg View Post
Way back when... The nem staff glowie award went to whomever clicked the glowie in the mission instead of the mission holder. Man that really got folks mad when someone would run and steal the staff. They changed that quite a while ago.

I'm hard pressed to think of any current missions where it makes a difference who clicks what. Maybe the hydra tf weapons?

Anyway, I still think it is polite to defer to the team leader on glowie clicks. Same with team splits in a missions. Follow the leader unless he/she specifically has instructed the team to follow the tank.

Every Mayhem and Safeguard raid side mission. But, you are right about the Nemesis staff. It used to be worse.

--Rad


/whereami:

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouded View Post
Ya, reminds some of us of the old days where women were better seen than heard.
I'M JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!
I'm afraid the gap in your post wasn't big enough - I will now hunt you down


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radionuclide View Post
Every Mayhem and Safeguard raid side mission. But, you are right about the Nemesis staff. It used to be worse.

--Rad
I'm pretty sure the whole team still gets the badge credits for Safeguard side clickies - but not any temp powers.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I'm pretty sure the whole team still gets the badge credits for Safeguard side clickies - but not any temp powers.
I was talking about temp powers. It was in response to the previous post that said the poster could not think of any current missions where temp powers were granted by glowie.

I believe the badge credit was moved to the team but, I wasn't talking about that.

--Rad


/whereami:

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Yes, it's perfectly clear that you find it easier to assume regard men as the "defaut setting" for humans.
Without sounding like a jerk, it's how the language goes. Unless you want to claim "mankind" is deprecated, the term "man" stands for both a male in particular, and for a person in general.

But, yeah, go ahead and accuse me of chauvinism because I refuse to use gender-neutral pronouns that don't actually exist in the English language. Go ahead and claim that, because I use "he" instead of "he/she," that's shows I disrespect women and believe them to be some kind of addon to men. You need a bad guy to talk down, I'll be the bad guy. Go ahead.

Tell me how I'm oppressing women by refusing to acknowledge the possibility an undefined person may be female. Tell me how how I consider them lower and less significant. I'm male, so clearly I feel men are the most important, and that the old traditions of male domination should hold. After all, why else would I say "he" to regard a person who might, in fact be a woman? What possible reason might I have, other than to assume that the people I'm talking about would probably be men, anyway. And if a woman reads it? Who cares, right? I mean, it's a woman, and women shouldn't be here mingling with the men, so who cares about addressing them? Tell me how I'm unfair and perpetuating a horrible misconception about men being the "right" thing and women only a deviation.

You're clearly thinking it, and what other explanation could there be for me saying those things, after all, so go ahead and say it. I promise I won't argue. I'll just accept everything you have to say and admit whatever it is you wish me to admit. You want an inconsiderate man, so just tell me where to sign. Would that be enough?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Sam, this is GG. It's her thing.

GG, dear, seriously. It gets old when you trump it out EVERY time some poor chap has to settle for using s/he.
Given the majority of game players (at least here) are male, its not really a 50%-50% chance of getting it right.

And this is coming from a guy who know a goodly number of female players
It just really isn't such a huge issue, m'kay?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Sam, this is GG. It's her thing.

GG, dear, seriously. It gets old when you trump it out EVERY time some poor chap has to settle for using s/he.
Given the majority of game players (at least here) are male, its not really a 50%-50% chance of getting it right.

And this is coming from a guy who know a goodly number of female players
It just really isn't such a huge issue, m'kay?
Pretty sure GG is an emo guy pretending to be a woman; this was an old issue before he fled to the Euro servers after spamming every forum with 1-3 word responses or sometimes just a smiley face.

___________________
Currently listening to AC/DC's Back in Black


Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.

 

Posted

Thanks muchly for the replies thus far. I see a couple of things that address the things I didn't really say but that were relevant to what I was trying to say. I myself stated that (in effect) there are as many different playstyles as there are players. Someone pointed out that what drove team behavior once upon a time was no longer relevant, yet that behavior tended to persist in veteran players, mystifying new players as to why the older players insisted on behaving in such-and-such a manner.

I think the bottom line consensus (is that redundant?) is that courtesy is relative. There is no general standard of behavior/etiquette, so the team leader must communicate what he/she/it/they expects of the other players invited to the team, if the team leader holds certain things to be important. Without that communication of expectations, there is no crossing of lines as there are no lines.

As others have pointed out, whether one likes it or not, the team leader has responsibilities. Inform others of expectations. Keep the game moving. Tell others when their actions are to the detriment of the team as a whole. Do something about players who are a disruption to the well-being/fun of the team or who deliberately go against against the stated expectations.

Now me, I'm the non-confrontational type. I'd make a bad team leader, as I'd hesitate to speak up. I supposed that's why I solo (or duo) almost all of the time. When I do team, I shut up, do my best, and keep the fun of the other players in mind.

Thanks for helping me clarify in my mind both what I was trying to ask about and what players in general think about my (largely unspoken) topic.

Lastly, I'll even throw in the motivation for this post to begin with. As I said, I mostly solo or duo with my SO. With Double XP Weekend, the drive to team is high, to squeeze all possible points out of every single hour. My SO was leading a team as she's frothing at the mouth to get a villain to 50 and unlock the VEATs. The mission difficulty was set at +2 levels, and was on an outdoor map. By the 3rd mob, the team (which had run together through 2 or 3 missions previously) wiped due to either 3 mobs being too close together (and thus all 3 being aggroed) or someone on the team deciding to "heat things up" and bring the XP in faster by deliberately bringing in extra mobs.

We tried using strategy, discussed among the team, for the second go-round, but pretty much the same thing happened. I still don't know if it was because the 3 mobs were too close together or because certain players were too confident of their own abilities. The difficulty was lowered for the 3rd try, and things went much better. However, the team leader hadn't specifically settled the debate going on among the team members; she hadn't stated what she wanted the team to do. This particular mission could be ended by defeating a boss, and a player who had said nothing at all during the debates defeated the boss (who was in or near about the 5th mob) and immediately exited the mission.

The team leader and myself were incensed; this player decided for all of us to end the mission. I see now that the team leader's mistake was not clearly stating how she wanted things to go. She kicked the "offending" player and half the team seemed mystified/exasperated/unhappy with that action. The player himself asked (in tell) a few minutes after why he'd been kicked. Our perception at the time was that he knew damn well why he'd been kicked; thanks to the help from all your replies, I see now that there's a good possibility he actually didn't know, and we were just assigning selfish motivations to his behavior at the time where none actually existed.

Again, the bottom line: there is no standard behavior for teams, so the only way to avoid stepping on sensibilities or over "invisible" lines is to communicate, and that responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of the team leader.

Thanks again for your help.


M. Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me...it was Tuesday.
-- Street Fighter (1994)

McClane: Hey, thanks for saving my daughter's life.
Farrell: What was I going to do?
McClane: That's what makes you "that guy."
-- Live Free or Die Hard (2007)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Yes, it's perfectly clear that you find it easier to assume regard men as the "defaut setting" for humans.
And it's perfectly clear you're trying to derail the thread. Want respect for being a female player and poster? Participate in the discussion instead of trying to troll it.


"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill

 

Posted

More on point for the thread:

I try to work on two guidelines (not rules) when I team. When someone else is in charge, I try to follow their lead and support with suggestions. When I'm in charge, I try to make it clear what my expectations are, so my teammates don't have to guess about whether I want glowies, etc.


"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Sam, this is GG. It's her thing.

GG, dear, seriously. It gets old when you trump it out EVERY time some poor chap has to settle for using s/he.
Given the majority of game players (at least here) are male, its not really a 50%-50% chance of getting it right.
So are you saying minorities should be ignored? Be careful how you answer that

And while it might not be a major deal, these small things do add up.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad View Post
And it's perfectly clear you're trying to derail the thread.
It's important team etiquette to not assume everyone on the team is male


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klatteja View Post
I think the bottom line consensus (is that redundant?) is that courtesy is relative. There is no general standard of behavior/etiquette, so the team leader must communicate what he/she/it/they expects of the other players invited to the team, if the team leader holds certain things to be important. Without that communication of expectations, there is no crossing of lines as there are no lines.
I think "the foundation of the fundamental basis" would be more redundant, though that was a deliberate joke

Seriously, though, this bit of wisdom is something all team leaders should learn and follow. Communicate, set the rules, establish the parameters and make sure everyone is game BEFORE problems occur. And if problems occur anyway, solve them on the spot. Letting hurt feelings simmer is probably the worst thing that could happen.

I would add one more caveat to that - team members should, themselves, speak up and state their opinions and preferences, such that leaders could either accommodate them, or warn them off in time. There's no sense getting onto a TF expecting it to be a speed run and then complaining half-way through when you realise it's a kill-all run. Speak up BEFORE it becomes a problem and make sure you're signing up for what you think you're signing up for.

I know I'm becoming redundant (here's a shocker) but I cannot emphasise how important it is, as a school teacher once put it, to "use your words." Don't assume, expect or suppose. Ask, tell and arrange.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
So are you saying minorities should be ignored? Be careful how you answer that

And while it might not be a major deal, these small things do add up.
Slippery Slope argument? Really? Weak point is weak.

It's the 21st century. Women are more respected and equal than at any other time in history, and it's because the true movers and shakers on the equality front DON'T get bogged down in semantics. Hate speech and discriminatory speech and policies are clear and obvious, and should be stopped. Using words in a commonly accepted way in a discussion that has nothing to do with the topic of sexual equality should be accepted for what they are.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Sam's just using the language we have. Unless you can come up with something better and get it approved by society at large, all you're doing by pointing it out is weakening your stance.

It's a game forum and we're talking about the game and how to respect people in it. Stop trying to disrespect someone for something they're clearly not doing. It demeans you.


"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post

It's important team etiquette to not assume everyone on the team is male
How is it important? I'd consider it far more rude to be asked if I were male or female than I would for someone to get it wrong inadvertently. If someone makes a mistake, then I politely correct them, and we move on. Getting on someone's case for the vagaries of language that are beyond their control, or an honest mistake? That's bad etiquette, not assuming most players are male unless being told otherwise.


"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satanic_Hamster View Post
Pretty sure GG is an emo guy pretending to be a woman; this was an old issue before he fled to the Euro servers after spamming every forum with 1-3 word responses or sometimes just a smiley face.
You're 0 from 3 for factual accuracy so far


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad View Post
Slippery Slope argument? Really? Weak point is weak.

It's the 21st century. Women are more respected and equal than at any other time in history, and it's because the true movers and shakers on the equality front DON'T get bogged down in semantics. Hate speech and discriminatory speech and policies are clear and obvious, and should be stopped. Using words in a commonly accepted way in a discussion that has nothing to do with the topic of sexual equality should be accepted for what they are.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I don't hate anyone

Quote:
Sam's just using the language we have.
No, he, and others, are using language in a certain way, even if it isn't on purpose.

Quote:
Unless you can come up with something better and get it approved by society at large, all you're doing by pointing it out is weakening your stance.
Not at all - if it doesn't get pointed out, how will people know it needs to change?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Who decided it needs to be changed? Intelligent people can tell the difference between discrimination and expedience. Others get bogged down in minutiae instead of dealing with real issues.


"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad View Post
Who decided it needs to be changed? Intelligent people can tell the difference between discrimination and expedience. Others get bogged down in minutiae instead of dealing with real issues.
It's obvious it needs change - why should the default setting be male?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

GG, how does this contribute to the thread? I'm not even sure why I'm asking. STANDARD ENGLISH PRACTICE WHEN DISCUSSING A PERSON OF UNKNOWN OR INDETERMINATE GENDER USES THE MASCULINE PRONOUN. It's called good grammar. Now, if you want English grammar to change, then fine, but this is not the right place to do it. This is a game forum. Talk about the game, not a percieved slight caused by someone with a better grasp of the English language and appropriate (not "common", appropriate) use than you.


The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise. ; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
It's obvious it needs change - why should the default setting be male?
It is a convention. Just as it is a convention to refer to boats using the feminine pronoun. I don't see you asking for that to change.


The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise. ; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*