Broadsword or Katana?
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2009-09-23 10:11 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Katana is statistically superior once you add in IO's. It'll probably stay that way too, since the Dev's won't balance around IO sets. Go for +rech, and destroy everything.
The only reason you should take BS over Katana is if you don't plan to get in depth with IO's *and* prefer the aesthetics of a BS.
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Correct me if I'm wrong here...|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Katana is statistically superior once you add in IO's. It'll probably stay that way too, since the Dev's won't balance around IO sets. Go for +rech, and destroy everything.
The only reason you should take BS over Katana is if you don't plan to get in depth with IO's *and* prefer the aesthetics of a BS. |
I'm missing how adding +rech to Katana is that big a deal since it already recharges faster than BS. Wouldn't adding +rech to BS actually be a bigger deal? (I'm probably overlooking something obvious...animation times?)
So far I'm leaning slightly toward BS/SR over Kat/Inv. Seems like I'll eventually have plenty of fun with either though.
[QUOTE=KingSnake;2281214]But IMO, it's all so, minor, you'll be happier picking the sword you think just LOOKS the coolest to use.
QUOTE]
This.
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Yes, it's thanks to the animation times, though not for the reasons you're probably thinking. They achieve roughly the same DPS through straight out attacks with their peak ST DPS chains (HS>Hack>Dis>Hack deals 547.8 damage in 7.656 seconds for 71.55 DPS and GD>GC>SD>GC deals 403.5 damage in 5.412 seconds for 74.55 DPS), but what really allows Katana to plow ahead is that, because each of the attacks takes less time to animate, it can get more proc attempts in the same amount of time as BS does. Kat gets substantially more from the AH proc than BS does thanks to the greater number of proc attempts per 10 second period, which allows it to pull ahead significantly.|
Originally Posted by JeetKuneDo
Correct me if I'm wrong here...
I'm missing how adding +rech to Katana is that big a deal since it already recharges faster than BS. Wouldn't adding +rech to BS actually be a bigger deal? (I'm probably overlooking something obvious...animation times?) |
It also doesn't help that the optimal BS attack string is substantially harder to get the +rech requirements for than the Katana attack string, but that's more due to the damage formula penalizing heavy hitting long animation attacks even though they've got generally sub par to average DPAs than to an specific imbalance between the sets. I'm still hoping to hear something from Castle concerning his attempt to address DPA in the damage formula. I know he was messing with it a few months ago. (If he hasn't and he's reading this, I've got a solution that he might want to try out).
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FYI, there is no damage formula that balanced damage based on animation times other than for "claws" powersets. The formulas balance recharge times based on damage, everything else is pure happenstance.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
due to the damage formula penalizing heavy hitting long animation attacks even though they've got generally sub par to average DPAs
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And everything in PvP >.>
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
FYI, there is no damage formula that balanced damage based on animation times other than for "claws" powersets. The formulas balance recharge times based on damage, everything else is pure happenstance.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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OWNED!!|
Originally Posted by macskull
And everything in PvP >.>
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Tissue?
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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As this thread wasn't in the PvP section of the forums, I just assumed it was referring to PvE values.
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Originally Posted by macskull
And everything in PvP >.>
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It's okay. We still think you're cool |
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
As this thread wasn't in the PvP section of the forums, I just assumed it was referring to PvE values.
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better change that to know your cool before he logs in and puts all of your avatars in pink-tutu's.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
It's okay. We still think you're cool
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I figured as much. |
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
As this thread wasn't in the PvP section of the forums, I just assumed it was referring to PvE values.
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As long as I (maybe still) have your attention though, are there plans to further revisit the PvP damage balancing that happened in I13? The idea to balance damage around activation wasn't a bad idea but some really weird things happened to certain powersets - Blaze is rather inferior to Flares and Fire Blast, and Bitter Ice Blast is just terrible compared to Ice Bolt and Ice Blast, not to mention AoEs kinda got hosed in the damage department.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Katana is really pretty, golden dragonfly is a killer looking attack. The sets are so similar that I'd base it on aethetics. Log in and watch each animation in the character generater and go with whichever one is more satisfying to you.
At some build levels kat surpasses BS, but at other times one shotting stuff is always going to be faster than using 2 hits .
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I'd actually enjoy that |
Originally Posted by je_saist
better change that to know your cool before he logs in and puts all of your avatars in pink-tutu's.
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I know. I was simply pointing out all of the BS attacks have worse recharge times than Kat attacks even though they've got roughly the same DPA explicitly because the damage formula isn't animation time normalized. The damage formula, by the nature of excluding animation time, automatically penalizes attacks that take longer to animate because those attacks, while having the same DPA (and therein the same potential contribution to overall DPS), will have longer recharge times because they deal more damage in a single stroke.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
FYI, there is no damage formula that balanced damage based on animation times other than for "claws" powersets. The formulas balance recharge times based on damage, everything else is pure happenstance.
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The penalization isn't anything that the damage formula was intended to do because it operated under the assumption that every attack was functionally the same for every variable that it didn't directly influence (re: damage type, animation time, debuffs). The penalization that I wrote about was the unintended natural penalization that forces BS to have higher +rech requirements than almost any other melee set in order to have an effective ST attack string thanks exclusively to the fact that it has long animation times.
Katana's faster and takes to IO's better... However I remember why I chose to BS/ when I did.
I was playing a blaster (and had been for a long time) after awhile I'd come to kind of disdain scrappers as subpar damage (since it always felt like my AoE's killed everything, then I still did heavier damage to the bosses)... But then I played with a Broadsworder, I heard the Ka-Cthunk of Headsplitter and a saw a purple bosses health drop by more than half.
That was something I could appreciate, even though I knew scrappers were contributing considerable damage the broadsword does it very, very noticeably.
Nice if teaming's your bag and you don't want to fade into the background.
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That said, Katana looks like your character actually has skill (rather than the HackChopHackChop of BS), and it definitely works with IO's better... no matter how much recharge you have you'll never escape the fact that BS is clunky. You can just try and make the attack chain less x->parry->disembowl->headsplitter and more... parry...->headsplitter.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
x->flurry->disembowl->headsplitter->flurry all the chain u need in pvp anyway
For PvE purposes, I really wish the damage of Broadsword was brought up to match the DPA of Katana. The sets are literally identical save for cosmetic differences.
They are identical except for the fact that BS has lower DPA. And at high recharge (not even crazy recharge) katana is far superior to BS in every single way. Higher Dmg to match the longer Activation time of the stronger attacks would bring BS up to par with Katana DPA (DPS) and offer a difference with longer animating stronger attacks with same stretched out dpa, when compared to Katana.
Even if you look at the Damage per power graph of BS which gives you the DPS of a chain, as soon as the second attack begins, katana wins.
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Here, you're wrong. They have roughly identical DPA. This is why their attack strings can generate such similar DPS. The only reason that Kat pulls ahead is because of procs. The faster animating attacks allow for more proc attempts in any period of time.
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Originally Posted by GeminiProject
They are identical except for the fact that BS has lower DPA.
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Kat has flat out higher DPA values across the board except for Hack over GC (actually SotW, but GC is used in an optimized chain, thus the comparison). Granted, because of the frequency of Hack/GC in their respective usual attack chains, this evens things out a bit, but your own DPS calcs still shows Kat ahead. And that's both ST chains optimized, which again, takes more recharge to do for BS. Then there's the proc advantage for Kat.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
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There's also no "burst" advantage for BS either, since you can pretty much fit in GD + GC in the same time it takes for 1 HS to animate. There are certain 10ths of seconds burst measurements where BS seems to be higher (say at exactly 2.3~2.8 seconds), at least for the first swing or two, but for any meaningful burst measurement (say, how much damage you can do w/BU), Kat still wins.
Combine this w/the fact that FS & LD blow Slice & WS out of the water and, asthetics aside, Kat >> BS in pretty much every regard. So yeah, I think BS's damage should be bumped up a touch. Otherwise, other than for concept (and concept is very important, no doubt), there's really zero reason to play BS. At the very least, normalize Slice & WS's damages to match the Kat counterparts' DPAs.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
I would agree to upping the damage a bit on broadsword. It was one of the first powers to have it's animation times tweaked, then kinda go outdone when every other 'scrapper' set also had it's animations tweaked.
I also think procs in general need some balancing. They tend to favor quick powersets way too heavily. Maybe have them scale based upon a powers activation time and damage or something. Damage procs would deal slightly more damage dependent on activation times, and debuff durations would last slightly longer dependent on activation times. As always, I leave exact numbers to this idea purposefully ambiguous.
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You sure about that? Seems to me there is a fair bit of difference, at least in some of the powers. For example:|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Here, you're wrong. They have roughly identical DPA. This is why their attack strings can generate such similar DPS. The only reason that Kat pulls ahead is because of procs. The faster animating attacks allow for more proc attempts in any period of time.
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At level 50, unenhanced:
Slice vs. Flashing Steel
42.3 DPA vs. 58.2
Whirling Sword vs. Lotus Drops
32.8 DPA vs. 49.9
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Yep. The katana animations are some of the best in the game. They are, in fact, some of the best swordfighting animations in any game (although that's not saying much; most game representations of sword combat blow chunks). Flast, fluid, and fairly realistic.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Not to mention Katana *looks* good. Broadsword looks like you're swinging a metal flyswatter.
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The Broadsword animations, on the other hand, appear to have been made by someone who thinks real broadswords are all Conan the Barbarian style eight pound monstrosities. Perhaps necessary to illustrate the difference between how the two sets work in the game, but really awful to look at for sword aficionados.
As far as how they play in the game, I have both (at 50)...and I have no preference, really.
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
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How does Katana have "Much" better AoE dmg than BS?? The cones do similar dmg and the PBAoE are almost the same as well with the same Rech??
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Katana has much better AOE damage than Broadsword as well.
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Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
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Did you even look at Panzerwaffen's numbers he posted above before posting that?|
Originally Posted by Brynstar
How does Katana have "Much" better AoE dmg than BS?? The cones do similar dmg and the PBAoE are almost the same as well with the same Rech??
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Which, btw, look a little off. My own numbers (from City of Data) show:
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BS Dam Act DPA Kat Dam Act DPA Slice 80.80 2 36.01 FS 65.04 1.17 49.27 WH 84.47 2.67 29.09 LD 88.22 1.83 44.55
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Katana gets the Rusty Blade. I certainly wouldn't want to be hit with that...