Broadsword or Katana?

Panzerwaffen · 10-02-2009 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brynstar

How does Katana have "Much" better AoE dmg than BS?? The cones do similar dmg and the PBAoE are almost the same as well with the same Rech??

I posted the numbers above, but using unenhanced base damage as a comparison the BS PBAoE only does about 66% of the Katana DPA and the cone does about 73% of Katana's DPA. I consider that a significant difference.

Panzerwaffen · 10-02-2009 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave_p

Did you even look at Panzerwaffen's numbers he posted above before posting that?

Which, btw, look a little off. My own numbers (from City of Data) show:

I don't doubt that they are not exact.. I pulled my numbers from Mid's.

dave_p · 10-02-2009 11:46 AM

Yeah, Mids' is often inaccurate. Esp for scrapper #s cuz they bake in crits as a % of damage. I redid all my calcs for my DPA tables w/CoD #s and they seem to be a lot more accurate.

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Umbral · 10-02-2009 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen

You sure about that? Seems to me there is a fair bit of difference, at least in some of the powers. For example:

I was referring to ST damage. The AoE disparity is rather well known and doesn't really have an explanation, especially since tLD does more damage through the same mechanisms and takes less time to animate for the exact same endurance and recharge costs.

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Arcanaville · 10-02-2009 07:20 PM

QR

One has to be a bit careful about comparing AoE DPA. The logic behind comparing single target DPA is the presumption that for the circumstances we are analyzing for, a character can generate a full attack chain. When your attack chain is full, higher DPA attacks are better than lower DPA attacks for obvious reasons.

But when you cannot make a full attack chain, DPA is not as good of a proxy for attack power value. Suppose I have two powersets each with one AoE: one has an AoE that does 100 points of damage per target and recharges in 19 seconds, and the other does 125 points of damage per target and recharges in 24 seconds. Both have 1 second activation.

The first power does 100 points of damage per target with 20 second cycle time and the second does 125 points of damage per target with 25 second cycle time. Each does an average of 5 points of AoE damage per second. The first has much better DPA, but that higher DPA can't be used to do more AoE damage, because there are no more AoEs to use. Instead, that higher DPA means the first powerset has a little more time to devote to single target attacks.

Its for this reason that I do not judge AoE attacks by DPA in isolation. I believe the proper way to analyze attack powers is to judge single target attacks by DPA and AoEs by DPC (damage per cycle) unless the set has enough AoEs to make credibly full chains. And actually, I really only consider two cases myself these days: combined single/AoE attacks used against single targets for a single-target composite number, and combined single/AoE attacks used against groups of targets for a composite AoE-adjusted damage number.

To put it another way, I consider AoEs to be single target attacks that happen to do bonus damage when there is more stuff around. If we had two otherwise identical powersets and we added one of the two AoE attacks I mention above to each of them, even though one of them would be getting a much better AoE in one sense, the overall net effect on damage output would be very small.

I was one of the early evangelists for adopting DPA rather than DPC or base damage comparisons, but the logic was always that once your attack chain is full, the only way to improve damage is to have better DPA attacks: having more attacks or attacks that do more damage per attack doesn't help unless they deal more damage per activation-second. That justification doesn't hold for AoEs in most powersets that have them.

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Arcanaville · 10-02-2009 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler

FYI, there is no damage formula that balanced damage based on animation times other than for "claws" powersets. The formulas balance recharge times based on damage, everything else is pure happenstance.

Claws and Widows (but not Soldiers) factor in cast times.

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Leo_G · 10-03-2009 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave_p

Did you even look at Panzerwaffen's numbers he posted above before posting that?

Which, btw, look a little off. My own numbers (from City of Data) show:

Code:

BS        Dam      Act    DPA      Kat      Dam      Act    DPA  
Slice    80.80     2    36.01    FS     65.04     1.17    49.27
WH      84.47     2.67    29.09    LD     88.22     1.83    44.55

DPA calcs w/Arcanatime for base damage at 50. Kat DPA numbers are clearly higher than BS's. Lotus has flat out more damage *and* is faster animating. FS also has a shorter recharge than Slice (base 6 vs 8 sec). If you think 54% more (LD vs. WH) is "similar" damage, I really don't know what else to say.

Hmm, WH? Are you referring to Whirling Hands?

Mngwa · 10-03-2009 09:03 PM

Sorry,this might be a bit off topic, but I don't want to start a new thread for it, and it does involved Broadsword.

Head Splitter for BS Stalkers accepts Melee Damage IO sets. On my Scrapper it was PBAoE. Is this working as intended, or did they change it around for Scrappers too?

Call Me Awesome · 10-04-2009 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mngwa

Sorry,this might be a bit off topic, but I don't want to start a new thread for it, and it does involved Broadsword.

Head Splitter for BS Stalkers accepts Melee Damage IO sets. On my Scrapper it was PBAoE. Is this working as intended, or did they change it around for Scrappers too?

It's still PBAOE for Scrappers; it hasn't changed.

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Catwhoorg · 10-04-2009 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mngwa

Sorry,this might be a bit off topic, but I don't want to start a new thread for it, and it does involved Broadsword.

Head Splitter for BS Stalkers accepts Melee Damage IO sets. On my Scrapper it was PBAoE. Is this working as intended, or did they change it around for Scrappers too?

Stalkers power do tend to be tweaked a little.

Eviiscerate (claws) became single target such that the stalker can get the critical from hide. I believe headsplitter got the same treatment (and Mids suggests this), but I dont have a BS Stalker to confirm

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Mngwa · 10-04-2009 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwhoorg

Stalkers power do tend to be tweaked a little.

Eviiscerate (claws) became single target such that the stalker can get the critical from hide. I believe headsplitter got the same treatment (and Mids suggests this), but I dont have a BS Stalker to confirm

I got a 34 BS/Elec, and its still a melee cone. Says it in the description, and I've seen it 1 shot a line of mobs out of hide.

Buged? I hope it stays a cone actually, its pretty fun.

dave_p · 10-05-2009 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo_G

Hmm, WH? Are you referring to Whirling Hands?

Oops, I meant Whirling Sword (WS).

Interesting point raised by Arcana about DPC for AoEs. I was going to dispute that a bit (still might), but I'm doing some AoE/ST mixed DPS chains for BS & Kat and the disparity isn't quite as great as I thought so I'm going to normalize all ST attacks for DPA and start again. Might take it to the scrapper board for more input.

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