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Okay, this does crack me up-regardless of the legalese, regardless of precedents, regardless of actual logic and/or legal acumen....I find this to be the equivalent of an electronic 'nuh-UH!'|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
No, you can't.
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I have no input on the actual argument at hand, or interest in it. But the extent to which people will wage online battles to try to prove their point always amazes me. I forget who originally said it (Kissinger?), but someone once said something like 'Battles between academics are very interesting-never have people fought so hard over stakes so small.' I think we need to amend that to read 'people on electronic bulletin boards' instead of 'academics.' :^)
Basically too many 50's to count, but I'm generally a brute/scrapper/tank kind of guy.
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Okay, I've heard this stuff so many times now I just have to jump in with some real economics.|
Originally Posted by WingedAvenger
If the item sells, the listing fee you paid is deducted from the transaction fee you pay when you claim your Inf.
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<rant>
Inf, like money, is fungible. That means it can be applied to anything equally as long as the source of the funds is the same. In the case of listing/sale fees, it has to do with the gross and net cost.
The listing fee is 5%. The gross loss at sale is 10%. That's a net cost of 5% at listing and 5% at sale. They can use whatever words they want and even do whatever code routing they want, but unless there's a way around either they listing or the sale fee, the fact is that the listing fee is not refunded (in that you never get it back) and the sale fee is 5% (in that it's how much additional money you lose). Anything else is just semantics. Normally I care a great deal about semantics, but when it comes to economics, everything else is trumped.
The real myth here is that money isn't fungible.
The real fact is that it is and the bottom line is that you drop 5% on the listing and an additional 5% on the sale. None of that is ever refunded.
It's like saying Buy One Get One Free. Unless you pay full price for the first one whether you take the second one or not, what's really happening is that it's on 50% discount. The rest is just marketing.
</rant>
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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You don't always drop 5% when you sell it. You lose 10% of the sale minus your listing fee. If your sale price is higher than your listing price(which happens often), then more than 5% of your sale price will be deducted.
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Okay, I've heard this stuff so many times now I just have to jump in with some real economics.
<rant> Inf, like money, is fungible. That means it can be applied to anything equally as long as the source of the funds is the same. In the case of listing/sale fees, it has to do with the gross and net cost. The listing fee is 5%. The gross loss at sale is 10%. That's a net cost of 5% at listing and 5% at sale. They can use whatever words they want and even do whatever code routing they want, but unless there's a way around either they listing or the sale fee, the fact is that the listing fee is not refunded (in that you never get it back) and the sale fee is 5% (in that it's how much additional money you lose). Anything else is just semantics. Normally I care a great deal about semantics, but when it comes to economics, everything else is trumped. The real myth here is that money isn't fungible. The real fact is that it is and the bottom line is that you drop 5% on the listing and an additional 5% on the sale. None of that is ever refunded. It's like saying Buy One Get One Free. Unless you pay full price for the first one whether you take the second one or not, what's really happening is that it's on 50% discount. The rest is just marketing. </rant> Robin |
Myth: Lord Recluse is named after the recluse spider.
Truth: He's just very shy and likes to avoid public attention.
Myth: Strong heroes/villains must always be ugly (Hulk, Juggernaut, Thing, Soloman Grundy, etc.)
Truth: It is possible to be both strong AND pretty!
Myth: Miss Liberty carries the sword of Hero 1 in that sheath on her belt.
Truth: It's not a sword, but it does take batteries...
Myth: Blue Steel is the most powerful hero in the CoH world.
Truth: He just has better PR than Statesman - the whole playerbase, basically.
Myth: Ghost Widow is a ghost.
Truth: She's just a goth with a stealth IO slotted in Sprint.
Myth: Not everything is a Nemesis plot.
Truth: You can't handle the truth!
It was always my understanding that, based on US law, any intellectual content submitted to the game, the forum, or any other NCSOFT owned digital service was granted Non-Exclusive republishing rights only.
I am getting this from the online writing world, where intellectual property is submitted to an online service for the intention of publication. The act of submission grants Non-Exclusive digital reproduction rights, but not ownership of the property. Nothing in a ToS or EULA can alter this fact and, when push comes to shove, any such property would be governed under DMCA.
Short version, submitting content gives away the right to offer it as unpublished content and allows the publisher the ability to present that content. It does not remove copyright and will not give up ownership.
Again, just my perspective. Would love to hear from the Devs on this.
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If you sell it for the same amount you listed it for, then yes you're technically correct. However if you sell it for more than what you listed it for, then (5% of your listing price) =/= (10% of what it sold for ÷ 2).
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Okay, I've heard this stuff so many times now I just have to jump in with some real economics.
<rant> Inf, like money, is fungible. That means it can be applied to anything equally as long as the source of the funds is the same. In the case of listing/sale fees, it has to do with the gross and net cost. The listing fee is 5%. The gross loss at sale is 10%. That's a net cost of 5% at listing and 5% at sale. They can use whatever words they want and even do whatever code routing they want, but unless there's a way around either they listing or the sale fee, the fact is that the listing fee is not refunded (in that you never get it back) and the sale fee is 5% (in that it's how much additional money you lose). Anything else is just semantics. Normally I care a great deal about semantics, but when it comes to economics, everything else is trumped. The real myth here is that money isn't fungible. The real fact is that it is and the bottom line is that you drop 5% on the listing and an additional 5% on the sale. None of that is ever refunded. It's like saying Buy One Get One Free. Unless you pay full price for the first one whether you take the second one or not, what's really happening is that it's on 50% discount. The rest is just marketing. </rant> Robin |
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Only if the item always sells for exactly the same price that you listed it at.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
The listing fee is 5%. The gross loss at sale is 10%. That's a net cost of 5% at listing and 5% at sale.
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Example: You get a purple recipe. You put it up for 1000 inf.
The listing fee is 5% of 1000 inf, or 50 inf.
You see in the chatlog: "You spent 50 influence in the Consignment House".
The highest bid for that recipe is 20 million inf. That bid is higher than your asked price, so your recipe fills that bid.
The sale fee is 10% of 20 million inf, or 200 000 inf.
However, the 50 inf you've already paid is deducted from that.
You see in the chatlog: "You sold Purple Recipe for 20 000 000 influence", and then "You spent 199950 influence in the Consignment House".
Character index
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Last I looked, the map patches/etc. were done by making copies of the game data, modifying them, and then "placing specifically named files in a specific location such that the game will read them in preference to the normal data". It's the first two steps that make it a EULA violation, not the third. If you hand-drew maps of all the zones, converted them to the game's file types, and put them in the directories to be read by the game, that would not be a EULA violation. NCSoft is willing, so far, to let the matter slide as long as no attempt is made to put altered data back into the pigg files, but no one would be in a position to complain if the devs released a client update that made it stop checking that directory for replacement data.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
This point can be argued extensively. Specifically, the map patches/etc. do not actually modify the game's executable, nor any of its data files. What they do is place specifically named files in a specific location such that the game will read them in preference to the normal data. It is easy to argue that this is not a client modification, but rather an undocumented feature of the game. And that distinction is enough to make any attempt at prosecution not worthwhile, anyway.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Of course not. If you created the character before you made a version of it in CoH, then it's still yours, and THAT's what the line in the EULA ("To the extent that NC Interactive cannot claim exclusive rights in Member Content by operation of law") really means... that, if "by operation of law" they can't have exclusive rights (because you already hold the copyright to a character, which happens when the character is initially created) then you're granting them nonexclusive rights and can't sue THEM. You cannot transfer copyright of a character by clicking "Next" or "I Agree" as Arcanaville so eloquently pointed out. (Incidentally, that's exactly why there's not an actual NDA for CoH's closed betas, despite everyone saying there is. First of all, there's nothing in the EULA that even mentions closed beta confidentiality and secondly, an NDA is a contract that must be SIGNED -- the way that CoV's closed beta NDA was digitially signed, not by clicking "Next" on a EULA that doesn't even mention closed beta confidentiality.)|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
So TonyV, what if you have already commercialized your character before ever playing City Of Heroes? Does that mean I have to stop doing that at that point?
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Of course, you wouldn't be able to use any CoH-originating elements to enhance your already existing character in whatever other form he or she appeared, and the whole thing may be murky when it comes to characters that were initially created in the game itself, but for existing characters that you choose to represent inside the game... No, NCSoft does NOT own them; they just get nonexclusive rights to use their CoH representation in any way they see fit. That section of the EULA protects NCSoft from us as much as it protects us from them (maybe more so).
It's the only way it would make sense, especially given the Guest Author MA series, where established writers are being invited to bring THEIR characters into the game. Unless you think NCSoft is going to write up a special EULA to have only those authors see when they launch the game to do their work.
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Granite's a special case, because -- as with all of the 'Halloween costume' powers and con-swag costume unlocks -- the Granite model replaces your character model; it's not a power effect, it's a completely separate mesh, which is why every Tanker running Granite looks the same. For the same reason, there's no customization for Mastermind pets, because the meshes for the pets are not connected to the player. At least, Positron agreed with me when I surmised that 'replacing character model' instead of 'applying visible power effect to player model' was why Granite couldn't be customized when I spoke with him about power customization at SDCC this summer.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Some items *are* still too hard (see "ran into a problem with customizing Granite," for a recent example) or impossible (stretching/grappling with the current engine) to do...
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Myth: If greedy evil marketeers couldn't sell things for more than 1,000 inf, everyone could have as much of everything as they want, for cheap!
Truth: As long as the drop rate doesn't change, the amount of loot won't change. Instead of the rich players getting stuff, it might go to the person who puts in the first bid or be distributed randomly or something, but in the end we'll still have the same amount of stuff divided by the same number of players.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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You are my hero.|
Originally Posted by Rusted_Metal
Myth: Ms. Liberty is a hero
Fact: Ms. Liberty has several times attempted to take over UN operations by violence and treachery, in order to secure and further expand her own powerbase, influence, and agenda. Many characters have seen this, and even taken part in preventing/encouraging these black ops. Myth: Statesman is a hero Fact: Statesman has excellent PR. Statesman has twice invaded sovereign nations in order to do what he felt he should, once leading an invasion of a sovereign nation to settle an old score. When he invaded the USSR to "rescue" people, instead of allowing diplomacy to take place, his assault of the nation's military defending their nation in clear accordance to world statutes, forced the USSR to use a nuclear weapon in order to save the lives of their soldiers and stop what appeared to be a rogue power from invading their nation and causing more damage. Notice that everyone learns that Statesman was injured, but the billions of dollars in damage, thousands left homeless, hundreds of soldiers and civilians killed, before the nuclear detonation. are all overlooked. Additionally, he led an assault on the Rogue Isles, a sovereign nation in its own right, in clear violation of UN laws, without any formal declaration of war, and led scores of young heroes to the slaughter, just to settle a personal grudge. Finally, Statesman has repeatedly invaded Praetorian Earth, several times being captured by Tyrant, but never have the Praetorian invaded Primal Earth, yet Statesman's PR machine has already begun attempting to convince Primal Earth heroes that Praetorian Earth is evil, without any proof. DON'T BELIEVE THE LIES! |
I despise a great number of the hero missions because they call for doing things that are patently immoral, such as fighting people who are doing nothing more than carrying out peaceful business transactions or mounting assaults on private facilities in order to gain evidence of a crime.
Woah, almost got lost in a rant that would have gone on for days... Sorry. Just the anarchist in me.
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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Quote:
See this makes much more sense and is how I initially understood it when I read it. Perhaps I misunderstood what TonyV was saying, but it appeared he was stating once a character is created in CoH that NCSoft owned the IP for that character, period.|
Originally Posted by Hellguard
Of course not. If you created the character before you made a version of it in CoH, then it's still yours, and THAT's what the line in the EULA ("To the extent that NC Interactive cannot claim exclusive rights in Member Content by operation of law") really means... that, if "by operation of law" they can't have exclusive rights (because you already hold the copyright to a character, which happens when the character is initially created) then you're granting them nonexclusive rights and can't sue THEM. You cannot transfer copyright of a character by clicking "Next" or "I Agree" as Arcanaville so eloquently pointed out. (Incidentally, that's exactly why there's not an actual NDA for CoH's closed betas, despite everyone saying there is. First of all, there's nothing in the EULA that even mentions closed beta confidentiality and secondly, an NDA is a contract that must be SIGNED -- the way that CoV's closed beta NDA was digitially signed, not by clicking "Next" on a EULA that doesn't even mention closed beta confidentiality.)
Of course, you wouldn't be able to use any CoH-originating elements to enhance your already existing character in whatever other form he or she appeared, and the whole thing may be murky when it comes to characters that were initially created in the game itself, but for existing characters that you choose to represent inside the game... No, NCSoft does NOT own them; they just get nonexclusive rights to use their CoH representation in any way they see fit. That section of the EULA protects NCSoft from us as much as it protects us from them (maybe more so). It's the only way it would make sense, especially given the Guest Author MA series, where established writers are being invited to bring THEIR characters into the game. Unless you think NCSoft is going to write up a special EULA to have only those authors see when they launch the game to do their work. |
And I would imagine that guest authors aren't bound by the EULA that we are. They are brought in for the purpose of writing a story, so any copyright involved in that process is probably worked out between the guest author and NCSoft.
Hey, just to throw this out there:
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That's from the U.S. Copyright Office website FAQ.|
What is copyright? Copyright is a form of protection grounded in the U.S. Constitution and granted by law for original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Copyright covers both published and unpublished works. What does copyright protect? Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section "What Works Are Protected." How is a copyright different from a patent or a trademark? Copyright protects original works of authorship, while a patent protects inventions or discoveries. Ideas and discoveries are not protected by the copyright law, although the way in which they are expressed may be. A trademark protects words, phrases, symbols, or designs identifying the source of the goods or services of one party and distinguishing them from those of others. When is my work protected? Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Do I have to register with your office to be protected? No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section Copyright Registration. Why should I register my work if copyright protection is automatic? Registration is recommended for a number of reasons. Many choose to register their works because they wish to have the facts of their copyright on the public record and have a certificate of registration. Registered works may be eligible for statutory damages and attorney's fees in successful litigation. Finally, if registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section Copyright Registration and Circular 38b, Highlights of Copyright Amendments Contained in the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), on non-U.S. works. |
As soon as you create a character and put it into a fixed medium, it is copyrighted.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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It seems to me that if NCSoft does not pay you for your intellectual property, then they don't own anything. |
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
See this makes much more sense and is how I initially understood it when I read it. Perhaps I misunderstood what TonyV was saying, but it appeared he was stating once a character is created in CoH that NCSoft owned the IP for that character, period.
And I would imagine that guest authors aren't bound by the EULA that we are. They are brought in for the purpose of writing a story, so any copyright involved in that process is probably worked out between the guest author and NCSoft. |
Again, the idea that you are agreeing that you won't sue THEM for use of your intellectual property, that makes sense. They have the right, granted by you for free, to use your character in their game. But you would need a much more legally binding contract to transfer the whole of the copyright. Even the use of a well known character, like those of the guest authors you're talking about, probably requires a more explicit contract. (Since those characters are part of some sort of commertial venture that makes money)
As for the NDA on the Beta server not being enforcable, that may be true, but they can still ban your account and prevent you from ever logging on to their servers again.
My view on the copyright issue:
By putting the character into the game, as a newly created concept, you're giving the copyright to NCSoft, because NCSoft does not allow characters copyrighted by anyone else to BE in their game.
If you previously commercially or otherwise made up the character, and therefore it is copyrighted, the terms of the EULA forbid you from putting it into the game.
So, technically, really, if NCSoft sued you and said they owned your character, you could say they're mistaken, what you did was break their EULA by putting a copyrighted character into the game, and their relief is not ownership or money from your copyright's income, but instead, genericizing your character or banning your account. Which is also what would happen in RL if this was done. They would not care that the player is the owner of the copyright or not; if it's a famous enough copyright it would get genericized.
If you want to keep your character un-genericized, don't exert your copyright on it. Sure, you can legally do so, as Arcanaville explained; and sure, they might sue you in some conceivable reason later for doing so and have a chance of winning if they spent enough or at least making you give them money to settle (rather like the infamous software company who sued over open-source code, can't remember the name, but it was on slashdot for years) - I can envision a time, long after CoH is gone, when some law firm makes a shell company to buy all the former CoH intellectual property, then has researchers go see if any players went on to make successful hero movies or comics or tv shows etc, and if they find any worth any money, find a character that person played that resembles one in their valuable IP and sue over it. For a nice settlement probably that is less than what it would've cost to successfully defend their rights...
Myth: Scrappers can Tank
Truth: Tanking is more than be tough enough to take the alpha strike
( not trying to give off scrapper hate- but if your not holding agro and keeping it when the fire blaster goes nuts with AOEs your just "leading off" and provide no real protection after that)
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With the presence pool (or heck their pitiful taunt ability) and solid support from their team a scrapper can tank, they may not be able to tank a GM or Lord Recluse, but they can tank an 8 man spawn.|
Originally Posted by Mercuryflux
Myth: Scrappers can Tank
Truth: Tanking is more than be tough enough to take the alpha strike ( not trying to give off scrapper hate- but if your not holding agro and keeping it when the fire blaster goes nuts with AOEs your just "leading off" and provide no real protection after that) |
Tanking is staying up and managing agro, many scrappers can do this. So yes a scrapper can tank. It is true that a Scrapper is not a Tanker.
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Dear Devs, please delete all the server and character data and all backups of that data if and when this game finally gets shut down, in order to prevent such a silly thing from ever happening.|
Originally Posted by Retrogression
I can envision a time, long after CoH is gone, when some law firm makes a shell company to buy all the former CoH intellectual property, then has researchers go see if any players went on to make successful hero movies or comics or tv shows etc, and if they find any worth any money, find a character that person played that resembles one in their valuable IP and sue over it. For a nice settlement probably that is less than what it would've cost to successfully defend their rights...
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Thanks!
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Too bad it doesn't work for the PvP zone liasons as well.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
This works for Jim Tremblor, Stephanie Peebles, Gordon Bower, and Seer Marino as well.
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They aren't.
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Originally Posted by Tormentoso
Tanks are not support AT.
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Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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If I take a RAM snapshot of the game running in Steel Canyon and one of the game running in Atlas Park, I'll have two different images as a result. If I take a snapshot while standing next to SuperDude vs. standing next to FluffyCatGirl, I'll get a different image. If I enter a mission, take a RAM snapshot, exit the mission, reset it, enter, and take a second snapshot, I will in all likelihood, get a different image. Your RAM snapshot as proof of modification is extremely poor for "proof".|
Originally Posted by TonyV
if you take a RAM snapshot of the game running with a client mod and without a client mod, you'll have two different images as a direct result of your tinkering. That would be enough to count as "modify."
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Originally Posted by TonyV
The truth of the matter is that they don't have to have a reason to ban you
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
Last I looked, the map patches/etc. were done by making copies of the game data, modifying them, and then "placing specifically named files in a specific location such that the game will read them in preference to the normal data". It's the first two steps that make it a EULA violation, not the third. If you hand-drew maps of all the zones, converted them to the game's file types, and put them in the directories to be read by the game, that would not be a EULA violation.
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Second, attempting to prove that the files used in map patches/etc. are modified versions of exactly the in game files would be difficult at best. Trying to prove that they were extracted from the PIGGs (rather than, say, a UI screenshot) would be nearly impossible, barring statements from their creators acknowledging the fact.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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No, that's not true. If you own the copyright and trademark, by putting it in the game you grant NCSoft a non-exclusive world-wide license to use the character. This prevents the Marvel situation where Marvel employees made clones of Marvel characters which Marvel comics then used to sue Cryptic over. You can, however, create copyrighted and trademarked characters you own in the game, but you then grant a perpetual license to NCSoft for use of those characters in the game.|
Originally Posted by Retrogression
If you previously commercially or otherwise made up the character, and therefore it is copyrighted, the terms of the EULA forbid you from putting it into the game.
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If you do NOT own the copyright or trademark, you cannot put the character into the game at all.
And BTW, in most cases, it's the Trademark thats important, moreso than the copyright.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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No, this is incorrect. A name, for example, cannot be copyrighted. Nor can a "look" (i.e. costume). A particular picture or representation (artwork, photograph) CAN be copyrighted, but not the subject of that artwork or photograph. So if you make a character in CoX and then take a screenshot of that character, you do not own the copyright on that character: the artwork used belongs to NCSoft. They own the copyright. However, if you draw a picture of your character (or, in fact, any other character) you own the copyright of that picture. If you photograph someone dressed as that character in a costume they made, you own the copyright on the photograph but not the costume.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
As soon as you create a character and put it into a fixed medium, it is copyrighted.
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Now, if you claim a character's name and general appearance (design) as your own, you're asserting a Trademark, not a Copyright. This is a distinctly different thing.
Everyone always confuses Copyright and Trademark law which are, despite both being branches of intellectual property law, are very different bodies of law with two entirely different branches of government in charge of them (the Library of Congress for Copyright and the Patent and Trademark Office for Trademarks).
It is a very confusing and complex area of law where the courts don't always even agree with each other. Again, I advise people that unless you're in a position to spend alot of money to protect characters you create, it's not a good idea to create characters you want to use later in any service like this.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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So TonyV, what if you have already commercialized your character before ever playing City Of Heroes? Does that mean I have to stop doing that at that point?