City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

So with WoW raising their level cap again

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-08-23 16:32 in Player Questions

 

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Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
Right. Why remake the game to cater to people who probably can't figure out how to make the credit card payments successfully? They'll just ask the credit card company to raise their credit limit.
And judging by the state of the economy, the company will probably oblige...

 

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Originally Posted by RottenLuck View Post
If you really think about it if WOW system was designed to Top at level 100 or so then they Deliberately restricted players to lower levels. Just so they could raise the cap every so often.

Our Devs had a system that meant to stop at 50 and they created the IOs so we can become even stronger. Now there's players taking down AVs by themselves. I'm glad we weren't perspicuously restricted to 50 just so with each expansion they can tease us with more levels.
Some of us were taking down AVs solo years ago...IO sets are just beginning to make up for the nerfs inflicted over the course of I3-present. The I5 GDN and I6 ED nerfs being the most obvious offenders.

We've gotten no new levels of power. Rather, we've gotten a highly inflationary system for regaining that which was taken from us.

Not saying the game is unfun. If it sucked, i wouldn't still be playing. Let's be realistic, though.

 

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From what the Dev's have said in the past plus what little information that's managed to slip out (mostly the survey information) the Dev's seem to be thinking in terms of lateral progression from 50 rather than adding true level by level progression.

IO Sets are a prime example of that apparent philosophy. They make characters slightly more powerful on the enhancement side, but let one customize the "special" bits more. The "Universal Enhancement Slots" from the survey also follow that philosophy, with 10 universal slots that cover the whole character modifying the "special" effects on powers. In that same vein, I wouldn't be surprised to see quasi-multi-classing as a future option (giving you blaster some control abilities or defender-lite abilities, or giving your tank some blasty type effects) or even a "revamp" of the discarded "skills system" from years back to get small bonuses on specific power aspects ("I maxed out the 'martial arts' skill track and now I get a 2% damage bonus and a 3% recharge bonus and a 3% defense in melee and now I'm taking the 'Inventor' skill track that drops the cost of making IOs, gives a market discount, reduses salvage requirements, and reduces the cost to place base items").

Given all that, I seriously doubt the Devs are going to spend the time and effort to rebalance the game around a higher level cap, plus add powers to every set, plus create new enhancements, build 10 levels of new content on both sides, plus risk alienating a portion of the playerbase by making their work to get hamis and billions to get level 50 IOs moot all to just hear "I'm level 60 when do we go to level 70?" after it's live 48 hours.

 

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Originally Posted by Shadow Wail View Post
Got to love those condescending cut-n-pastes! ...
You really have to ask what they are going to do to make a 50 better and in turn make people actually play their 50?. . .
Epic fail there.
You must not know Bill.
Not a condescending bone in his body.
One of the top few most helpful people on the forums.

And the cut-n-pastes?
They are clear, concise, comprehensive answers to people who either
  • didn't search to find out the topic has already been more than thoroughly discussed before, or
  • know that it has been discussed to death already, but think that they themselves, are important enough to start yet another thread on the subject.
Either way, . . . they obviously need to be reminded of the history of the discussion.

CutNpastes do this efficiently, and well.


(And while the OP seems like a nice enough guy, He did admit at the start, that he knows we have already dealt with this particular dead horse "every few months".)
.

 

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This is one oftjhe many reasons i stopped playing WoW, forever raising the level cap, moving the goal posts.

I hope CO* never raises its level cap, it's fine the way it is, well for me.

@Snow.
Defiant: Snow + many other alts

Arc ID 61069

 

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Am I the only one who would like a level cap rise? At least the vocal majority seems to be violently against it.

Why do I want the level cap to be raised? Because I want more things to do with my top-level favourite toons, I want to progress them further. I especially want more powers for them. More enhancement slots wouldn't hurt, either.
And most of all, I'd like a few more high-level maps with new challenging enemies, TF's and missions.

Sure, I still like playing with my lower level toons. But when they hit 50, I tend to shrug them off. Progression is a big part of the fun, at least for me.

I've never understood any arguments against level cap raise, and still don't. More high level content, powers and stuff. What's wrong with that?! I don't think getting 5 more levels every 5 or so years is that excessive or "copying WoW".

 

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
Am I the only one who would like a level cap rise? At least the vocal majority seems to be violently against it.

Why do I want the level cap to be raised? Because I want more things to do with my top-level favourite toons, I want to progress them further. I especially want more powers for them. More enhancement slots wouldn't hurt, either.
And most of all, I'd like a few more high-level maps with new challenging enemies, TF's and missions.

Sure, I still like playing with my lower level toons. But when they hit 50, I tend to shrug them off. Progression is a big part of the fun, at least for me.

I've never understood any arguments against level cap raise, and still don't. More high level content, powers and stuff. What's wrong with that?! I don't think getting 5 more levels every 5 or so years is that excessive or "copying WoW".
Think of it like building a house, if every year you want to hire contractors to come in and add on a new room you'll never have the time, money or effort available to make the rooms you already have feel like a home.

 

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Ok.. So people like having their characters finished. They're finally ready, and that's it.
I see, I see. I on the other hand enjoy progressing more.
And, as I said, raising the cap 5 levels in 5 years isn't that excessive to me.

Maybe there could be another way to "advance" the characters, if raising the cap is a taboo.

I'm not sure how those rumoured "universal enhancement slots" would work. Would you have to grind for a certain recipe to get them? Would it be even more insanely rare than getting those purple recipes (I've got three lvl50 chars and haven't got a single purple drop yet).

I'd like to see them giving something more fun than just a big boost of +xx% to recovery/damage/whatever. A new power, a nice special bonus (like those "+4 res to KB" enhances) or something.

 

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Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
As I recall, it was Castle who said the powers system is designed and balanced around level 50, plus you don't want people having their purple IOs becoming obsolete. So, no, not gonna happen.
Percentages would have to be drastically changed if lv50 Recipes were to become obsolete.

 

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Originally Posted by Shadow Wail View Post
I will admit that I have been ignorant to Oro.

I will disagree with you on this though you soft tongued angel of beauty! I play on champion, Its a fairly casual/small server I think and the same people play the same events over and over again and that gets boring and tired. To make the repetitive/boring campaign even stronger, I am a main red-side layer...making my teaming objectives even more limited.

--TF/SF: On my first and only hero I did all the TF's and rarely did them again for the fact that I already have done them. For my dozen villains I have done out SF's so many times that I can prolly do them in my sleep.
I recommend gettting a group of mid- to high-level friends and doing the big 3 TFs on blueside again: Lady Grey, Statesman, and Imperious. These are my favorite, I run them all the time (3x each weekly minimum), and since 2 of the 3 are coop, lots of characters to choose from.

Some of the earlier TFs heroside are a little tedious, but these 3 are great every time, I think.

Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued

"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque

 

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
Am I the only one who would like a level cap rise?
.
I'm sure you're not the only one, but most of the people who agree with you have probably migrated to a different game. One of the things I liked the least from WoW was the giant numbers....which only got worse as level caps were raised. True, we're talking about games here, but there's a limit to how much my imagination will go.

I fervently hope that the level cap will never be raised in this game. There isn't a need for it. I play my level 50 characters more often than my lowbies for the simple fact that it's still fun for me to do so.

 

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
Ok.. So people like having their characters finished. They're finally ready, and that's it.
I see, I see. I on the other hand enjoy progressing more.
And, as I said, raising the cap 5 levels in 5 years isn't that excessive to me.

Maybe there could be another way to "advance" the characters, if raising the cap is a taboo.

I'm not sure how those rumoured "universal enhancement slots" would work. Would you have to grind for a certain recipe to get them? Would it be even more insanely rare than getting those purple recipes (I've got three lvl50 chars and haven't got a single purple drop yet).

I'd like to see them giving something more fun than just a big boost of +xx% to recovery/damage/whatever. A new power, a nice special bonus (like those "+4 res to KB" enhances) or something.
You're asking for further advancement, new maps, new missions, new TFs- that's what the devs have been doing. And the devs aren't raising the level cap, so all of the existing content will still be easily available instead of abandoned like it is in games that do raise the cap.

Think about it from a newbie's point of view- in a game where the level cap is regularly raised, they're only getting further and further behind the players who are always at that cap. It creates a stark divide between the casual and the hardcore. This game does its best to eliminate that divide.

 

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I'd like to see some sort of advancement, an extra layer of improvements after level 50. The sort of things that are 'nice' to have but not essential, and would not affect your prior build.

Powers? No, i don't mean anything that would affect enhancements. *edit* I'm suggesting enhancements stay capped at level 50 (except for those rare 53 HOs).

I'm thinking something along the lines of progress after 50. But it doesn't have to mean level 51,52 etc. It could still be some sort of progression, just to allow a couple extra slots. (Listen to my peacebringer and scrapper screaming for slots in the distance).

But more slots would be awesome.

Also something related to my origin specifically would finally make some meaning of it (other than the temp power you get at level 1).

  • It could be something fun (a new non-combat pet; or, a temporary pet of your choice with a suitably long recharge time. For example, the devouring earth fungoid.) Origin specific of course.
  • It could be something zany (a no-damage power such as throw snowball, or the mythical nerf-vomit bat, or something else fun!).
  • It could be a temp combat or defensive power (non-enhanceable) also specific to your origin
  • It could be a special temp "panic button". When there is a team wipe, you could click the panic button, and a hoard of your origing-specific npc's turn up (e.g. longbow) to save the day. (Obviously affecting rewards/xp).
  • It could add an extra costume mission/slot, with a contact specific to your origin (so 5 origin contacts); and maybe a couple of new unique pieces for your exact origin.
  • These contacts could also provide specific origin missions, which you are rewarded with 1 extra salvage/recipe/transaction slot. (one total per character).
I can hear someone in the distance disagreeing and saying these things exist already. Well, I'm not talking about the existing stuff. :P It's just an extra bunch of fun stuff you can *choose* to use, and that I know I would love to play about with.

Yes yes, I know there are vet rewards, temp powers, the magic booster pack, etc already.
But who wouldn't want their very own nerf-vomit-inducing bat, or to have the throw snowball power in the summer? Something to do during down-time inbetween missions when you are goofing off with friends is always a bonus. Heck they could even create origin specific dance emotes!

I just saw this thread and thought, there are some things I wish my character had and gee that would be fun; and hmmm this could be an option for unlocking further fun items whilst unlocking those extra enhancement slots. And I have always wished origins played more of a purpose other than what DOs you slot :P

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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I was thrilled with the Science pack cuz I finally got payback on the creepy guy that kept trying to ERP with my tween heroine, by hitting the costume change and turning into a 10' tall monstrous escaped prisoner and telling him, "You gots a real purty mouf, now bendover and squeal like a pig fo yo daddy, cuz you my little puppy now!" Haven't seen him since.

 

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You would not believe how much complaining origin-specific content would create.

 

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I hope they go the 'extra Enhancement slots' route, whether is those 'universal' things from the survey, or just more slots to add to existing powers - with IOs you could see a real increase in power there.

 

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Really? I wouldn't know, I've not seen anything origin specific other than the booster packs, which I've not had a problem with myself. Unless you mean the SO origin shops, which are a breeze to complete (hero side).

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure players will complain no matter what is done, or not done.

Could you at least provide some sort of subject and reasoning so I can understand your point of view?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I was thrilled with the Science pack cuz I finally got payback on the creepy guy that kept trying to ERP with my tween heroine, by hitting the costume change and turning into a 10' tall monstrous escaped prisoner and telling him, "You gots a real purty mouf, now bendover and squeal like a pig fo yo daddy, cuz you my little puppy now!" Haven't seen him since.

 

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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire View Post
You would not believe how much complaining origin-specific content would create.
Well, there might be a similar sort of thing in GR - according to that marketing survey, there'd be unique rewards available to Heroes and Villains who remained loyal to their side and didn't go rogue.
So if they're still going with that idea, there's going to be stuff you have to go rogue to access, and stuff you have to stay loyal to access.
Sure, it's not origin specific, but it is adding stuff that can only be accessed by the choices you make.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
Ok.. So people like having their characters finished. They're finally ready, and that's it.
I see, I see. I on the other hand enjoy progressing more.
And, as I said, raising the cap 5 levels in 5 years isn't that excessive to me.
You are incorrect, sir. Most of us enjoy progression. It's been said many times in this thread, however, that it's entirely possible to have progression without raising the level cap.

Consider that CoH is a game where most people have a lot of characters. If the devs add something new, like new enhancements or alternate powers you can take (in epics), people who are already level 50 can opt to work toward these new goals while doing new content if they choose. If however you raise the level cap, all level 50 characters on the entire server are invalidated, and would be forced to level up to the new level cap to continue to do new content. You kill the grab-and-go ability to do things like the new Task Force. If you want to do it on all your characters (and some of us have more than 25 characters), you have to first gain another X levels. That sort of "progression" is nothing more than a time sink.

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
Maybe there could be another way to "advance" the characters, if raising the cap is a taboo.
Alternate builds, IOs, HOs, accolades, and the speculation of "universal enhancement slots." All of these things exist and can be expanded upon without raising the level cap.

As I mentioned above, the key is that these things do improve your character, but are optional. If the devs introduce a new zone that's for level 50s and has new content, everyone who already has a level 50 can go. Whether or not they have IOs, HOs, or accolades. A "regular" level 50 is still a valid character. If you instead raise the level cap and make a new zone that's for level 60s, you're requiring extra, pointless effort by everyone who has ever gotten their characters to 50.

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
I'm not sure how those rumoured "universal enhancement slots" would work. Would you have to grind for a certain recipe to get them? Would it be even more insanely rare than getting those purple recipes (I've got three lvl50 chars and haven't got a single purple drop yet).
The thing is, nobody knows how they would work. But we also don't know how new levels would possibly work either. The power gain curve is already skewed oddly for the 40s and ends with an epic pool. What could you possibly gain for level 60? Just more of the powers you already have? A second epic pool? More enhancement slots? More inspiration slots? Just more HP? All of these effects would feel shoehorned into the current system.

We don't know how universal enhancement slots will work, if we even get them. They may well be something easy to earn, or story-driven. What we do know is that they'll be optional to play new content, unlike adding levels.

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
I'd like to see them giving something more fun than just a big boost of +xx% to recovery/damage/whatever. A new power, a nice special bonus (like those "+4 res to KB" enhances) or something.
Lots of speculation on what they could do. I would guess they'd add to your base stats. Many characters can already be made extremely powerful through IOs, though, so it's hard to say how far they'd take it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
Would it be even more insanely rare than getting those purple recipes (I've got three lvl50 chars and haven't got a single purple drop yet).
Call me crazy, but this might have something to do with it:

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Originally Posted by Flyman
But when they hit 50, I tend to shrug them off.

 

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Originally Posted by CaffeineAddict View Post
Really? I wouldn't know, I've not seen anything origin specific other than the booster packs, which I've not had a problem with myself. Unless you mean the SO origin shops, which are a breeze to complete (hero side).

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure players will complain no matter what is done, or not done.

Could you at least provide some sort of subject and reasoning so I can understand your point of view?
The booster packs aren't origin specific. They're merely origin themed, any character of any origin can use them.

Your favourite character is Tech origin. The devs release something that would be perfect for your character, but it's exclusive to Natural origin characters.

This is a game where costumes are its biggest draw, unnecessary restrictions are not cool.

 

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Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
I've never understood any arguments against level cap raise, and still don't. More high level content, powers and stuff. What's wrong with that?! I don't think getting 5 more levels every 5 or so years is that excessive or "copying WoW".
High level content.
Powers.
Stuff.
Every one of these items has been, and continues to be, added without changing the level cap. If these are your reasons for wanting the cap raised, then I don't see any point to raising the cap.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
Why do I want the level cap to be raised? Because I want more things to do with my top-level favourite toons, I want to progress them further. I especially want more powers for them. More enhancement slots wouldn't hurt, either.
Well, think of it this way. What's the point to advancement? You know you'll get to 60, 70, 80 pretty fast -- in fact, you'll work specifically to do so; that's the point of a level cap rise.

Once there, you're...here. Same place, and you got there quickly.

But...

All the players who "finished" their characters just had them all "UN-finished." They now have to go back and progress all their 50s further in order to be "completed," top-level, fully-enhanced, ready-to-do-anything senior superheroes. The level cap rise took them backward to a relatively weaker state.

That's one reason the response seems negative. You want to nerf every 50 in the game.

So to speak.

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

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Originally Posted by Leese View Post
Frankly, I'm more interested in WoW's redesign of their low-level content than I am in their raised level cap. Now there's somewhere whhere copying WoW in CoH is not only plausable but a good idea.
In this video of the dev panel discussion at San Diego Comicon, they explicitly say they're revisiting low level content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyman View Post
Am I the only one who would like a level cap rise? At least the vocal majority seems to be violently against it.

Why do I want the level cap to be raised? Because I want more things to do with my top-level favourite toons, I want to progress them further. I especially want more powers for them. More enhancement slots wouldn't hurt, either.
And most of all, I'd like a few more high-level maps with new challenging enemies, TF's and missions.
This has been said a few times in this thread (especially via the excellent Memphis_bill copy-paste), but this isn't a simple case of pro vs anti. There are very substantial baked-in reasons why we won't see the level cap go up. The devs have emphatically stated many times they're not going to increase the level cap.

That does NOT mean that we won't see any means of character progression, new enemies, TFs, etc. On the contrary, as has stated in this thread numerous times, it means that when the new content gets added it doesn't automatically invalidate old content.

By the way, in the same video, the devs clearly indicate they are implementing a way to advance character power in Going Rogue without increasing the level cap (my bet is on the Universal Enhancement Slots first mentioned in the August '08 survey). They also say they're going to be adding challenging end game content that will make existing content look easy in comparison.

Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.

 

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As someone who's played WoW since ~2005 (on and off, I've quit for a year at a time between expansions)....

....I really don't think that WoW releasing an expansion/raising it's cap has any bearing on CoH at all. Different genres, different markets, different fanbases, different styles of MMO. WoW's raising their cap? That's nice, move along.

/shrug

(Now, things that CO and DCO? do.... those could have some bearing, since they're close competition.)

------
Disclaimer - I play WoW kind of like I play CoH: mostly solo, leveling many alts to see things, and low pressure. No raids, no arena, no guild drama, no "the game starts at the cap".

 

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When the end game for CoX consists of farming for purples, which takes FOREVER to find or acquire. (Not Fun.) Why bother? GG. Bye...