What the hell? Let's buff defenders.

The ramblings of an escaped mental patient follow.

TL;DR - Increase defender base HPs to scrapper level and change their ranged damage mod to 0.8; Increase corruptor base HPs to blaster level and change their ranged damage mod to 0.9.

So I read this the other day, from Stormfront_NA:

/JRanger.

Why? Because I don't need hitpoints. I have Personal Force Field, Repulsion Field, Dispersion Bubbles, AND the epic armors, so I'm just fine.

Of course, I only speak for myself though.

You know what WOULD be a fun and wild and crazy idea? You know how only the "stupid" or "crazy" defenders (like me) take their nukes? I say we make their damage equal to Blaster nukes. But JUST the nukes, all other Defender damage stays the same.... wouldn't that make things more.... interesting? Hehehe.

Hello StratoNexus,

This thread you started really surprises me. I did not know you felt so strongly about improving Defenders.

One thing I would say (just my opinion) is that I would hate to see Defenders get the same treatment Controllers got. When containment was introduced, my main was a Controller, and I was very happy with how the change helped the AT, but I will also admit that I was shocked at the magnitude of the damage. And judging by other folks reactions (Like PK), could be that it was over-done a little.

I guess what I am saying is, I hope they (Devs) can find some other unique way to help defenders, rather than just more dmg.

I do like the idea of more HPs. Goes right along with what I have been saying about Defenders being the flip-side of Blasters, much as the Scrappers are the flip-side of Tankers. More HPS Please !! Cheaper endurance costs too while their at it.

As an aside, how do you think GR is going to effect Defenders ?

I can tell you're most likely being sarcastic with this thread, but I'll answer suggestion seriously.

More damage would be alright by me. Though I'd like to see Vigilance reworked above all.

I'm of the opinion that tankers should deal more damage than defenders.

NOT AGAIN! NO! NO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

*Start crying*

I was part of the CoH US beta way back when and realized the balance issues between Defenders and Controllers even then. Since then, Controllers have been blessed with an inherent power which nearly double their damage output and have gained access to awesome epic sets. Defenders were given a truly bad inherent and decent epics.

Below is a simple comparison I believe illustrate the imbalance quite aptly:

Defender/Total Focus: cast: 3.3, dam: 108, rech: 40, mag 3 stun
Controller/Seismic Smash: cast: 1.5, dam 159 (318 with inherent), rech: 28, mag 4 hold

I'm no numbers man, but that speaks for it self. Controllers so outclass Defenders its ridiculous. How can the developers allow this and other imbalances go on for so long?

A Controller significantly outdamages a Defender solo and on teams. Also, my defender builds end up with a LOT less to offer a team than my controllers. Defenders need dip deeply into their secondaries to be able to solo and are rewarded with the worst damage in the game. Controllers can save powers and slots and to dip into pool powers like leadership more freely. Why play a Defender when you can do just about everything better as a Controller?

I really don't think the issue is of HP. Here's how I would look at reworking defenders.

One, a Vigilance overhaul. Defenders get too big of an end discount from Vigilance. Just try to bleed your blue bar when a teammate is dead. And oh, I have no clue what a defender with a bottomless blue bar is suppose to do when one teammate is already dead. It's like having a full gas can, but no vehicle. A defender's primary tends to be end light and even one that is more end heavy, Sonic, probably is already running DF with a certain amount of ease and the team hopefully is already shielded.

Think of the currently reworked Elec armor since it had two powers for end recovery and then it was going to have CP again in the epics for scrappers and tanks. What did they do? They pulled back the end management and gave it heal and regen which Elec was completely lacking. Bare minimum should be a slight increase in recharge(increase in DPS without messing with defender damage) and making it work solo. I pause to say we get an increase in damage as health goes low because we all known how well that worked for blasters.

Two, a rethinking of epics. I know this is so not happening, but it's what is needed to be done. Outside of scrappers, who tend to use the Fighting pool as an unofficial epic pool, I think defenders benefit the least from epics.

One way to change epics would be to change the armors from resist based, which is horrible for squishies, to def based. Sonic would lose out on stacking, but there could be at least one res based epic armor. Give defender def based epic armors and we start to get hit less so our lower HP doesn't matter as much. We start to get mezzed less(points at Indomitable Will), which is a holy grail wish by the defender player base that defenders could get somehow.

Side note, IMO, it's a crock that defenders got World of Confusion versus Indomitable Will. "But it follows the mold of defenders getting blaster secondary powers." And that mold is vastly why defender epics need to be reworked(see below).

I know I'm going against my Kin nature, but we really don't need melee attacks. Yes, I know it's the attack type that we are missing compared to blasters, but it's not helping compared to the attacks scrappers, tanks, and controllers get. We sure as hell don't need melee attacks that have 3.3 second animations.

Again, following the fill in the blanks of what the AT needs, further ways to provide personal mitigation would be welcomed. Take out Total Focus and add in Dull Pain. Doesn't every FF defender take this? Hell, you could just add it as the 5th choice for Power since it needs to add one. Again, controllers get Earth's Embrace and blasters even get Hoarfrost so it's not out of line.

I really wouldn't be opposed to filling in epics will control type powers instead. Defenders will never be as good as controllers at controlling., but giving them additional controls even if the recharge times and such are scaled back would offer ways for defenders to be safer.

Oh so not happening, but hey, why not give defenders actual blaster level attacks in the epics, but have them go through the controller type nerf so they aren't deemed overpowered. We would be getting an end and recharge discount with our inherit anyway so we couldn't complain too much.

I know this is thinking outside of the box, but maybe an optional pet in epics might be worthwhile. Adds to damage and mitigates damage away from the defender.

Finally, and for the love, give us Thermal/fire. Defenders are one of two ATs that don't get Fire based powers and it's the only AT that really has a major issue with base damage. Add in GR coming and defenders getting Traps instead(and I like Traps) and it's just going to be another one of those little things against defenders. The excuse of BAB wanting to do no new animations doesn't work here either.

Vigilance needs to be reworked into something that works for the defender that isnt based on the team taking damage. This was developed seeming around one type of defender. The Empath. It doenst help the dark defender. It doesnt help the Rad defender. The FF defender gets nothing out of it because of the team doesnt take any damage then the vigilance doesnt do a thing. Its a stupd stupid mechanic that needs to be changed.

And defender values dont seem to be correct sometimes IMO. Oftentimes a controller with a defender primary is better than the defender itself because of the Controller Primary.. They get the controls, pets, containment damage AND buffs and debuffs ???? That allows them to do just as well as a defenders primary even though the values might be slightly higher for the defender. My Kin/Elec defender doesnt seem to drain end any better than my Elec/Elec blaster who us built for end drain ( not counting transfusion )

And on a side note the Electric Epic Pool for defenders blows... Why in the world do I have Thunderstrike in the elec pool and why does it come very early in the set before PowerSink when one would thing that PowerSink is FAR more defenderish than Thunderstike.. and a Single Target Immobilze ??? REALLY ?????? I mean REALLY ??? and then there is a single target hold later in the same set.. Come on...The Blaster set got EM Pulse... that seems WAY more Defenderish to me.. I would trade Thunderstrike in the set for EM Pulse even with the large recharge time any day of the week...

But back to defenders in general.. Damage.. Damage ona defender is just plain hurtful. The defender secondary is DAMAGE the problem is the defender is TERRIBLE at dishing out the damage. We need a damage boost.. badly.. Thats one of the things that holds defenders back and I dont care how you slice it. The very thing we are supposed to be second best at the defender does VERY VERY poorly. Worse that its cousin the corruptor. I play corruptors and they feel a WHOLE lot better than defenders do.

Defenders need help and they have needed it for a WHILE.. Its time to pay attention to the defender.. NOT the Healer.. ( looking at you vigilance )...

The DEFENDER...

There is a swear word in the thread title! My virgin eyes!

Did you hear the latest news about Billy Mays? He did cocaine. While part of me is shocked about that, part of me is thinking "wow, that explains SO MUCH."

Let's be objective about defender's soloability. DO NOT bring IOs into this as the Devs contend that SOs are perfectly fine for all content this game has that they put in, outside of the MA. Most compliants I've seen are that defenders do too little damage and they die fast with being light on the HP when soloing. I'm going to name 4 groups where I think most players fall into on this issue, attempting to view this issue from outside the game in a vacuum.

Group A: These are the people that have tried to solo on their defenders and find it absolutely horrible. They might come here and vent that soloing isn't possible. They might be new to defenders or unexperienced or maybe even set their expectations too high.

Group B: This group is your elite defender player. They solo all the time and love it, challenging themselves to greater and greater epic, heroic feats. They have a playstyle and knowledge of tactics that compliment the way their defender's powersets work. They may have the uber defender builds (think the 3D, Kin/*, ... ) and maybe not. When on a team, this player may stand out with their defender as outstanding or maybe even be a glory hound. When a Group A person comes to the forums, this group will usually, religiously bash the "A" person. Their precious egos are bruised and they must strike back. They like, no, adore how defenders work now and do not wish to see a change.

Group C: These are the team defender players. They may have dabbled in soloing at one time. They may even be able to solo reasonably well. But ultimately, the satisfaction of being on a team that is steamrolling is just too exciting and fun for them. You might consider this group elite defender players as well. They are extremely active all the time: buffs are constantly refreshed, debuffs are applied in good time on usually the best targets, and, when all else is covered, they use their attacks. This group will defend their position that defenders are fine the way they are now. No buffs are needed as some nerf will usually follow. They are more worried about the nerfs than whether or not they may like the idea of buffs.

Group D: All others. These are the players that do not play defenders usually or only dabble with them- the fence-sitters. They run the gambit of being decent or horrible defenders. They are sitting on the fence. It doesn't matter to them how defenders work solo or on teams. Some ATs are not for everyone. They will have no opinion on any defender topics unless it may somehow affect them. For instance: a controller may like to see a defender change if they share the same buff/ debuff set with hopes of it porting to the controller set as well or a blaster/ corrupter may have an interest if they share the same attack set. These players usually have another AT that they love intensely.

Now to be realistic. Yes, I know defenders can solo. Those who complain about them not being able to may have reason though. As I solo or team play, I like to see the difficulty set to lvl 3 or 4 after I reach lvl 20 or so. After certain levels, all ATs can solo on these settings reasonably well except for defenders. "WHAT???", you say? Still looking in from that vacuum, defenders have the least self-help powers in their primaries/secondaries of all other ATs with some exceptions, namely Kin, Rad, and Dark Miasma. They need to dip into the Power Pools to help them and maybe their choose of Epic for later. All ATs should be considered equal and if the blasters, tanks, controllers, and scrappers with any powersets can run at these settings, then so should defenders as well. I'm not advocating that it should be made easy but reasonable. It is not reasonable to tell the average defender that if he wants to solo, then keep to heroic, that's the easy button.

Beginner Levels (1-6) All players are on an even lvl with damage because TOs suck. The debuffs in defenders attacks actually can serve them well in this range.

Early Levels (7-19) DOs become available and the disparity between the ATs starts to become apparent. It is more beneficial for defenders to slot their primary over their attack set if they intend to team. If they intend to solo, then they are placing all those slots in their attacks with almost little help from their primary. Getting Power Pools to help here is usually not an option. Endurance issues and power placement picks set aside, slots are few and far between to make a big difference. Before the advent of the dual build feature, most players would make compromises of slotting primary/ secondary and power pools-- in other words, gimping themselves for soloing. Dual builds has helped, but is still not enough.

Mid Levels (20-32): Stamina and then SOs! Endurance issues lighten. Problem is: some of the more damaging powers open up here but you also get some of the best buffs/ debuffs and those tier 3 & 4 Pool powers are now available. Still lots of powers, few slots, compromise, compromise, compromise. And again, Dual builds have helped here. Soloing is an issue as most foes have some sort of debuff-- -to hit, -def, kd/kb, slows.

Higher Levels (33-50): Finally get those slots rolling in now. Able to flesh out all those powers now. 2 more attack powers available but with a tier 9 that usually leaves you without endurance. AH, now the defender starts to feel more powerful! But wait! Now your foe's power has seemed to multiply by a greater factor. Now they not only have those same debuffs but also buff powers- DE, Nemesis, CoT, Carnies, Malta oh my!


SO. The OP has stated that defenders need buffs. I agree. Before the flaming starts, IF the Devs stated that defenders were going to get a buff in HP and damage, would you tell them "No Thank-you, I like my defender just like he is." Would you? Be Honest! Of course not. What would this do for defenders? Lets looks at my Groups again.

Group A: "Woot! Now I have that chance to run solo." Greater #'s of people will be interested in staying with their defender and more would be available.

Group B: This changes nothing for them in reality. Since they were already soloing, they would just be able to now push themselves even farther. Pat themselves on the back for their new heights in epic heroic-ness.

Group C: Again nothing will change for this group. Teaming will still be preferable for these people. They may not even notice the additional damage, but they sure might notice the additional survivability.

Group D: This group might be the most affected. These fence-sitters might be encouraged to play more defenders, widening the defender- base even more.





SO! Increase my defender's HP and damage! Allow the average defender to rise to new epic heroic-ness!

tl;dr