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As I just posted, its far from the only power out there but when solo, you really don't have to worry about who you going to target with it because you have full control of who dies first. EVEN if you "wasted time" in such mundane actions, you waste more time in a scrapper just walking to the targets so doubt that works as an argument at all.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It must be considered. You can't just ignore it. That being said, I think its effect is overblown and should not prevent a damage increase.
I am interested in seeing why I am wrong, but simply flashing some numbers going 1.3*X without considering things like tabbing through a spawn to find which target you will toggle, the animation time of the power itself, the fact that you aggrod without dealing any damage, the enemies you have to kill outside the area of effect, etc. will be mitigated in my head by those factors. |
Irrelevant starsman since as I said with the Kheldian example, they don't consider -res/+dmg powers from powersets when balancing damage modifiers.
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Solo is definitely not a big deal to me at all. It sounds to me like you are arguing that defenders should not be able to solo even remotely close to the same speed as any other AT. You may not be intending to say that, but you are coming awfully close to actually saying it.|
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
As I just posted, its far from the only power out there but when solo, you really don't have to worry about who you going to target with it because you have full control of who dies first. EVEN if you "wasted time" in such mundane actions, you waste more time in a scrapper just walking to the targets so doubt that works as an argument at all.
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Solo, at the 0.8 damage mod, dropping Freezing Rain on every other spawn (or every spawn with good recharge, but now we are starting to talk endgame) and then unleashing your blasts is not all that dramatic. We are talking less than blaster damage after setting up the debuff. It certainly is no big deal to me if a defender can solo at 90% to 110% of the speed of any other AT.
On teams, I still believe scrappers and blasters would be popular, just because people want to play them and they have a different feel. After all, if people only played the best, wouldn't everyone be MMs, Fire/Rads-Kins, and Sonic/Rads?
Also, the time a scrapper needs to approach a spawn is actually irrelevant, except for the last spawn (and even then it is probably irrelevant). The defender is going to eventually need to traverse the same distance anyway, just to keep moving through the mission and the defender will also lose time to active mitigation techniques (although many armored ATs also use active mitigation, so that may be a wash, although I think it the armored ATs do have an advantage in needing active mitigation a bit less often). Defenders will also probably spend time moving OUT of melee range with many enemies.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Irrelevant starsman since as I said with the Kheldian example, they don't consider -res/+dmg powers from powersets when balancing damage modifiers.
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I would love to see Castle's opinion on that.
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Well that's because pets weren't done with a comic book theme. The devs conferred what should have been the pet role onto low level heroes. "The side kick". The side kick was usually (but not always) under powered especially compared to the hero and could usually be counted on to get into trouble that the hero would have to get them out of.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
A pet is an interesting idea and it has several pros. Pets add survivability because they get shot instead of the character, they add damage (practically endurance free, usually), and they can receive those buffs the defender cannot use on himself. A pet would definitely confer about the same benefit as increased HPs and damage (and indirectly add some mez protection, as mezzing attacks will go at the pet instead of the defender).
A pet feels wrong. There are already 3 pet ATs in the game, 4 if you include the VEAT with pets. Dark Miasma adds the pet for defenders and corruptors as an option. When I pick a defender or corruptor, its about personal power. I want to be active, I want to be shooting. I like the concept of these ATs as is and pet wrangling plays differently enough that it does not appeal to me as a solution. When I want to pet wrangle, I play a MM, controller, or dominator. I play a defender to help my team and shoot people in the face, not to buff and control my pet. I also do not want another buff set that encourages buffing an NPC instead of teammates. |
Classic examples are Batman and Robin and The Lone Ranger and Tonto, John Steed and Tara King.
Reverse classic examples are The Green Hornet and Kato, John Steed and Cathy Gale/Emma Peel, Maxwell Smart and 99. These are cases where the side kick did the fighting and the hero was a "buffer"
If the pet was a side kick and had been there from the beginning it would "feel right".
Let's also not forget that the defender's blasts are only 1/2 of the ATs power set and are the secondary at that.
The main problem with the Defender AT (aside from the inherent) is that they are intended to be a force multiplier. This isn't a problem with primarily debuffing Defender primaries since the defender gets those benefits along with the team and when solo still gets to use all of their primary powers. It is a problem with the buffing Defender primaries since with no teammates and no pet means that many of their buffs (and along with it much of their power) is gone.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Very Good Point. Empathy and Forcefields stand out in this regard.|
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Its dangerous to improve the base values of all sets when all but two sets have the ability to make those attacks even stronger. Would be less risky to just give those two sets the tools to make their blasts stronger.
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Which is another reason against a global dmg increase. These two sets will STILL be behind the other primaries.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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The problem is some sets will always be behind if you are considering every support set when adjusting damage modifiers because every set is designed to have different total amounts of -res/+dmg. The sets having different strengths from each other is kind of the point of having multiple sets. You can't go around considering specific sets when you're comparing AT modifiers and trying to balance to VERY similar ATs like corruptors and defenders. You can however fix the damage/buff modifiers so that the majority of the sets get balanced and then adjust damage/buff scalars up and down according to specific set flavor afterwards. |
Originally Posted by Biospark
Very Good Point. Empathy and Forcefields stand out in this regard.
Which is another reason against a global dmg increase. These two sets will STILL be behind the other primaries. |
Raising the defender and corruptor damage and bringing them closer to being balanced in their trade offs (trading damage<->support advantages equally) would help to better set the stage for balancing a lot of the inconsistent numbers that plague support sets.
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I concede that point Turbo |
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The problem is some sets will always be behind if you are considering every support set when adjusting damage modifiers because every set is designed to have different total amounts of -res/+dmg. The sets having different strengths from each other is kind of the point of having multiple sets. You can't go around considering specific sets when you're comparing AT modifiers and trying to balance to VERY similar ATs like corruptors and defenders. You can however fix the damage/buff modifiers so that the majority of the sets get balanced and then adjust damage/buff scalars up and down according to specific set flavor afterwards.
Raising the defender and corruptor damage and bringing them closer to being balanced in their trade offs (trading damage<->support advantages equally) would help to better set the stage for balancing a lot of the inconsistent numbers that plague support sets. |
Of course, then you are still looking at another round of adjustments (In my book) to bring the less optimal soloers within an acceptable range. I cannot argue with the numbers being presented regarding AT to AT comparison. For me its still about the significant difference in solo-ability between primary powersets in the first 30 levels.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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well that's expected, do the big adjustments first so that you don't have to do as many small adjustments overall.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I concede that point Turbo
Of course, then you are still looking at another round of adjustments (In my book) to bring the less optimal soloers within an acceptable range. |
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First, I don't think that it's possible to have the power be both aimed at an ally and aimed at an enemy. That's why I created the "buff pet", he is treated as if he were an enemy in effect, making you "waste" a buff by casting it at the pet instead of at a true ally. Given lower self-buff values, in a team, you would prefer to fire Fortitude at an ally for the higher buffs, but if soloing or in a team small enough to buff everyone including yourself, it wouldn't hurt to spend a Fortitude on the buff pet, since he'll then counter-buff you at lower values.|
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Allowing all defenders to use all buffs on self can be dangerous. Things would have to be done on a power-per power deal. One workaround I can see for Fortitude to buff self is making the power work on both, allies and foes. Then add two sets of effects, the normal current target buffs and duplicates that target self.
The self target will only trigger if the targeted entitie is a foe. The targeted portion will only trigger if the target is an ally. This would allow the power to still work only on as many entities as recharge dictates, but usable on either self OR ally, but not both at once. |
And second, to reiterate, that's the purpose of the buff pet, to eat up a buff cast, and then return it to you. He IS taking a Fortitude (or an Andrenaline Boost) from an ally, if you want to have the buff yourself. That's counter-productive on a team, if you're only getting 1/3 the values, thus it wouldn't increase Defender strength in teams. At least, not for buffs that you can't keep on everyone.
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I am pretty sure that they do, since Defenders used to have a higher base damage modifier. I don't recall if this was Beta or Issue 1. They also had higher values on Enervating Field, I think -35% or -40% Resist.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Irrelevant starsman since as I said with the Kheldian example, they don't consider -res/+dmg powers from powersets when balancing damage modifiers.
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This was also when Blasters had lower damage modifiers.
Those factors combined to make Defenders, with their buff/debuff sets giving them higher survivability, able to do more damage with the SAME blast than Blasters. Rad was the biggest offender since it had easily deployed debuffs and excellent defense, but Storm could do the same with Freezing Rain.
So they lowered Defender base damage multiplier because of -Resist powers.
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I am not sure of the details, but regardless, the game has changed dramatically since that time.|
Originally Posted by BlackSly
I am pretty sure that they do, since Defenders used to have a higher base damage modifier. I don't recall if this was Beta or Issue 1. They also had higher values on Enervating Field, I think -35% or -40% Resist.
This was also when Blasters had lower damage modifiers. Those factors combined to make Defenders, with their buff/debuff sets giving them higher survivability, able to do more damage with the SAME blast than Blasters. Rad was the biggest offender since it had easily deployed debuffs and excellent defense, but Storm could do the same with Freezing Rain. So they lowered Defender base damage multiplier because of -Resist powers. |
Increasing the damage of these two ATs to the levels I have suggested is not going to be a huge or dramatic shift into overpowered, stomps on blaster/scrapper/stalker/brute toes land.
It will be a noticeable and significant improvement. It will have big impact on soloing, which is important for all defenders, even Rad, Storm, Kin, Dark, TA, Traps, and Sonic. I believe it will also have a big impact on how the blasts are used and perceived in a team. It will not obviate the desire for blasters and scrappers, as those ATs will still have better damage and better caps (and for my previously mentioned playstyle reasons) which will be enhanced by those same defender/corruptor buffs/debuffs.
Increasing their hitpoints will not turn them into armored ATs nor will it obviate the need for good aggro control nor will it make them unkillable. It will aid in survival, it will allow for more margin for error, it will allow these ATs to be slightly bolder, and it will aid in differentiating them from the pet/control ATs.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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At one time Defender damage was lowered to keep them separate enough from Blasters.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Increasing the damage of these two ATs to the levels I have suggested is not going to be a huge or dramatic shift into overpowered, stomps on blaster/scrapper/stalker/brute toes land..
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Since then, Blasters have had several rounds of damage increases, with a base damage increase, Defiance, and several animation improvements (granted, Defenders also had several animation improvements).
It seems that if they were separate enough in 2004, and since then Blaster damage has gone up, while Defender damage has gone down (lowered -Res on a few powers, weaker Fulcrum Shift, although Tar Patch got -Res), it would be possible to improve Defender damage while still keeping them separate from Blasters.
That's especially true given that a Blaster can cap Ranged Defense now, giving them some defensive ability, whereas years ago the defensive abilities of Defenders were way above those of Blasters. Granted, Blasters did need some improvement.
So in conclusion, increasing Defender damage seems possible without taking over Blaster roles. However, don't imagine that you can discuss Defender damage increases and IGNORE their -Res / +Dam powers. Any damage increase should be done considering the effects of their potential -Res powers... it will not do to increase their damage and have Kins, Rads, Storms, TA, Dark, etc, do comparable damage after applying their debuffs, with the same powers, as Blasters.
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I am not sure, but I think the reason this was done was more because -res combined with other debuffs and near blaster damage made defenders able to do things that NONE of the other ATs could do.|
Originally Posted by BlackSly
At one time Defender damage was lowered to keep them separate enough from Blasters.
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Granted, this was only really true of certain powerset combos.
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| That's especially true given that a Blaster can cap Ranged Defense now, giving them some defensive ability, whereas years ago the defensive abilities of Defenders were way above those of Blasters. Granted, Blasters did need some improvement. |
And add in Device blasters stacking Smoke grenade and Blasters were pretty hard to hit, if they built in defensive powers.
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| So in conclusion, increasing Defender damage seems possible without taking over Blaster roles. However, don't imagine that you can discuss Defender damage increases and IGNORE their -Res / +Dam powers. Any damage increase should be done considering the effects of their potential -Res powers... it will not do to increase their damage and have Kins, Rads, Storms, TA, Dark, etc, do comparable damage after applying their debuffs, with the same powers, as Blasters. |
Not saying I would be unhappy with a damage increase. If thats going to help all Defenders, great ! But I would rather see FF get some kind of -res power (Forcebolt maybe) and Empathy get some kind of boost defensively.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I'll just point what BlackSly said. Plus, it should be clear that the damage modifier is based on applying damage buffs and debuffs, as the ratio of Primary to Secondary was originally defined as 100% to 75%, and that was exactly the ratio of a Blaster's damage to a Defender's, before Defender damage was lowered to 65%. Tanker damage was apparently lowered to 70%, but then raised to 80% as part of the rebalance that gave them Gauntlet. |
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
I would love to see Castle's opinion on that.
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Either way, the 75% ratio survives today as the damage modifier for Brutes and Corruptors. These ATs, however, have damage as their Primary. Brutes have Fury to raise their damage to Scrapper levels, but Scourge is nowhere near powerful enough to raise Corruptor damage to Blaster levels. The application of offensive buff/debuffs MUST be intended to provide Primary-level damage for a Corruptor. One can infer from that that a Defender is intended to have only about 15% less damage than that, notwithstanding Scourge.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Granted, this was only really true of certain powerset combos.
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At any rate, there is no reason why Corruptors should not have as much damage as Blasters, as that is part of their concept. If they have to use debuffs to achieve it, then that is consistent with their design. If we assume that Force Field will be ported over to Corruptors, and Empathy has already been ported as Pain Domination, then it is consistent with their design that they have damage buffs. And in fact, Pain Domination has just that. Once you establish that damage level for Corruptors, then Defenders should just be whatever percentage less.
Good and well, but when a kinetic easily caps a team's damage, and resistance debuffs scale sharply down in usefulness against higher level enemies, I'd say that the importance of +dmg/-res is a little bit overestimated. That overestimation may explain why defenders add huge amounts of damage to a team on paper, but in practice more people roll controllers for farming and other forms of steamroll teaming instead.
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100% Agree. |
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Good and well, but when a kinetic easily caps a team's damage, and resistance debuffs scale sharply down in usefulness against higher level enemies, I'd say that the importance of +dmg/-res is a little bit overestimated. That overestimation may explain why defenders add huge amounts of damage to a team on paper, but in practice more people roll controllers for farming and other forms of steamroll teaming instead.
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I dont think a Defender on a team is in serious need of help.
SOLO is a completely different story (For some Powersets)
I know, I know, Defenders are team-oriented. But so are Tankers, yet I have had very minor issues soloing every Tanker set that I have tried. This is not true of Defenders.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I like the idea of an increase in base damage but a decrease in the damage cap to keep our upper-end damage the same, but essentially giving us more damage solo and in small teams.
Well.
Issues with Defenders as I see them...
1) Damage is lower (in general), so it takes more time and more endurance to defeat a foe.
2) Defenses are lower (for some), so they suffer more damage in a fight, because they need more time as noted above.
3) Vigilance is a laugable waste of time.
The basic rule is that a character must have decent offense (defeat foes before suffering too much damage - Blasters), decent defenses (withstand damage, giving them time to defeat foes - Tankers), or a balance of the two (Scrappers).
Defenders are all over the place with this.
Some sets have the tools to provide extra offense (such as Kinetics), so a universal damage boost might be unbalancing to these kinds of sets.
Some sets have ample mitigation tools (such as Dark), so broad changes to the defensive aspect of the class might be unbalancing to these sets.
That leaves Vigilance.
What I would do:
1) a SMALL boost to damage, from the 0.65 it currently is, to 0.75. I can't speak to Corruptors, but if they're supposed to have higher damage, even BEFORE Scourge, then give them 0.8 or 0.85.
2) a boost to health, to Blaster levels. Scrappers need more because they're in melee, so that's more than Defenders need. Controllers need less to balance their highly defensive powers.
3) a revamp of Vigilance. I'm not sure what I would change it to, but something has to be done.
4) a GLOBAL (that is, all ATs and power sets) equalization of endurance cost. If my Power Bolts are going to do half as much damage as the Blaster's Power Bolts, it should cost half as much endurance, too. This would also alleiviate issues with endurance many Tankers currently suffer. Note, things like Fury shouldn't affect this. A power would cost the same amount of endurance, regardless of buffing effects like Build Up, Fury, and so on.
I'll try to stay out of this now, lest this become another shouting match.
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It would be more logical to give Defenders Corruptor level hit points, and Corruptors Blaster level hit points. Corruptors have HP between Defenders and Blasters, and the same as Khelidans and SoA. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
2) a boost to health, to Blaster levels. Scrappers need more because they're in melee, so that's more than Defenders need. Controllers need less to balance their highly defensive powers.
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I don't believe more hit points will really help Defenders in the area in which they need it, however, which is in defeating a foe quickly if they have no means of boosting damage.
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It would depend on the Defender. As I say, you either have to have offense or defense, or a balance of the two. If they don't have the damage to defeat a foe quickly, they need to have the ability to survive long enough to defeat the foe slowly. More hit points would help that. In this light, Defenders should have more health than Corruptors because Corruptors have more offense (and therefore less need for more health).
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
It would be more logical to give Defenders Corruptor level hit points, and Corruptors Blaster level hit points. Corruptors have HP between Defenders and Blasters, and the same as Khelidans and SoA.
I don't believe more hit points will really help Defenders in the area in which they need it, however, which is in defeating a foe quickly if they have no means of boosting damage. |
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Defenders already have epic armors that are way way better than the ones corruptors have.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
In this light, Defenders should have more health than Corruptors because Corruptors have more offense (and therefore less need for more health).
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Not "way better", but about 27% resistance compared to 20%. This is in proportion to their base modifier for (personal) resistance, 100% for Defenders, 75% for Corruptors. |
Originally Posted by Garent
Defenders already have epic armors that are way way better than the ones corruptors have.
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Corruptors have more hit points, they have weaker defenses. Defenders have less hit points, they have stronger defenses. Seems like it's supposed to be in balance.
Interestingly, those same shields are exactly the same (where applicable, Dark Embrace, Charged Armor, the other shields are comparable) for Masterminds. They get better personal defense, even though their buff/debuff powers are weaker.
Cold Domination
Dark Misma
Empathy
Force Fields
Kinetics
Radiation
Sonic
Storm
Trick Arrow
Thermal Radiation (assumes defender values)
Pain Domination (assumes defender values)
Traps (assumes defender values)
Poison (assumes defender values)
Some are single target, some are AoE, not that different from how attack sets are built. Some have their access late in the game, Fire is one that actually seems weak with just 50% uptime of Melt Armor and it being late game on top of that, but damage boosts are on every set other than Force Fields. Enervating Field is far from being the only damage boosting power available in buff sets.