Quote:
Actually Phil, Blasters are more popular than Controllers as you can see Here
|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
You've conveniently never answered just why it is that Controllers outnumber every other AT by a significant factor Turbo. But that's what you do, only answer what you want to answer and ignore the inconvenient questions.
|
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Actually, you're reading that entire analysis a bit incorrectly since you're citing popularity as "number of logins for each AT" rather than the more appropriate but completely unavailable "number of hours player for each AT". |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Quote:
|
Honestly, if you want a good gauge of real AT popularity insofar as playtime rather than timed logged in, you'd do best to simply take a few samples across all of the servers. Simply make a level 1 character, head in and check how many of each AT are playing at any specific time. In general, you'll find significantly more controllers on than any other AT. This is actually a more effective way to gauge AT interest because it actually accounts for how much people are actually willing to play the AT (or at least stand around while playing the character).
Quote:
And I want to keep defenders as great as they are and not be weakened so we can blast a couple of meaningless mobs. Maybe you team with poor defenders/buff bots. I see defenders blasting all the time. | All I want is for defenders to bring more blasty goodness, not less. |
Unless the devs are datamining this AT, I haven't seen defenders as underperforming or not working as intended. So, for me at least, I am concerned the devs would not give buff without some kind of negative balance attached.
Quote:
My D3 def and kin def and my current planned build for my cold/ice def have plenty of attacks. Only my emp/psi doesn't. | You are making the OP's point for him here. Why do so many defenders take so few of their "paultry" attacks? Because they do so little damage. |
Quote:
| Teams heavy with active defenders are steamrollers because of the defender's buff/debuff. Increasing damage has the added effect of giving the defender the pleasure of knowing they can do good damage on their own as well. |
Quote:
| Huh?? |
Quote:
| The OP said nothing about ruining defenders' team functionality. This is what you are perceiving to be what might happen. This would add to what defenders bring to a team. |
Again, I have to ask, unless data to the contrary showing how poor the defender AT is performing and their lack of ability to team (aka blaster and stalker data/changes), will a free buff be given to defenders without any negative consequences? If so, the devs can't take away from our damage, so that leaves our buffs/debuffs. And this is my objection to the OP.
Quote:
There would be no reason to nerf them just because you buffed them. There is no past evidence to even support that claim.
|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
And I want to keep defenders as great as they are and not be weakened so we can blast a couple of meaningless mobs. Maybe you team with poor defenders/buff bots. I see defenders blasting all the time.
Unless the devs are datamining this AT, I haven't seen defenders as underperforming or not working as intended. So, for me at least, I am concerned the devs would not give buff without some kind of negative balance attached. |
Quote:
I am saying "balance" in that a buff would be balanced by a nerf, especially a free one like the OP suggested. | There would be no reason to nerf them just because you buffed them. There is no past evidence to even support that claim. |
The devs are always looking at balance. Did ET get changed to be balanced by its damage? Did the dom sets get changed so whole sets bring more instead of one power? Did the animation times for blaster powers all get balanced out? Yeah, no evidence there.
Quote:
There is a difference between Power Balance and AT Balance. Stalkers, Dominators, and Kheldians all received massive buffs at no cost. There is no rule that says you have to nerf something just because you buffed something else.
|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
I am saying "balance" in that a buff would be balanced by a nerf, especially a free one like the OP suggested.
The devs are always looking at balance. Did ET get changed to be balanced by its damage? Did the dom sets get changed so whole sets bring more instead of one power? Did the animation times for blaster powers all get balanced out? Yeah, no evidence there. |
Quote:
Stalkers, blasters, and dominators were changed because the devs felt they were not up to their expectations as an AT. | There is a difference between Power Balance and AT Balance. Stalkers, Dominators, and Kheldians all received massive buffs at no cost. There is no rule that says you have to nerf something just because you buffed something else. |
You have data to prove that defenders are not performing as an AT per the devs expectations?
If you don't, then why would they give a free buff out that is not needed since defenders can't be shown to be underperforming? "Just because"?
Quote:
I would like to point out that you have not actually objected to my original post as of such. You are rejecting your own made up idea and I don't blame you.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Again, I have to ask, unless data to the contrary showing how poor the defender AT is performing and their lack of ability to team (aka blaster and stalker data/changes), will a free buff be given to defenders without any negative consequences? If so, the devs can't take away from our damage, so that leaves our buffs/debuffs. And this is my objection to the OP.
|
While it would not surprise me in the least if buff/debuffs got hit with some reductions, the amount of damage defenders or corruptors do with their blast sets is irrelevant to that discussion.
This is primarily a QoL change. It will ease soloing, and will make blast sets on the buff/debuff ATs more useful while teaming in more people's minds. Now is the perfect time to consider changes like this, because all of the more serious AT issues have been fixed. I agree, with defenders doing as well on teams as they do, this should have been low priority. Now that the higher priority stuff has been fixed, it is time to consider defenders and corruptors.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
This is one reason i was sure hoping for fire blast for defenders... we get AR? That damage will be TRULY laughable... indeed...
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
Quote:
It is ridiculous to ask for something you know we cannot provide. All we can do is provide our observations, as we are doing. If you want to shout us down with invisible proof, ask Castle, maybe he will provide you with real evidence to silence us.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Stalkers, blasters, and dominators were changed because the devs felt they were not up to their expectations as an AT.
You have data to prove that defenders are not performing as an AT per the devs expectations? If you don't, then why would they give a free buff out that is not needed since defenders can't be shown to be underperforming? "Just because"? |
I appreciate that you have never heard someone in game complain about soloing a defender. I appreciate that you feel defenders are great as is. I appreciate that all the defenders you have played with (except your Emp/Psi) utilize the blasts to the full. This is obviously a non-issue for you. My experience is different and while I enjoy defenders as is, I believe a vast majority of people find them annoying and lacking in fun and excitement.
Personally, I'd rather they spend time making a Melee attack / Buff-Debuff AT, but since that seems doubtful, I'd like the changes outlined in my original post as something easier to do.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
AR is truly an excellent set. Recent changes have made it better overall (although, a really strong item got reduced). If you like AoE punch, AR will please. It's low tier attacks have extra range as well, a nice feature. True, no Blaze, but it fits better for defenders because it has some controls and debuff.
|
Originally Posted by Gr33n
This is one reason i was sure hoping for fire blast for defenders... we get AR? That damage will be TRULY laughable... indeed...
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I don't really see how being able to put single target buffs on yourself would be overpowered as a defender inherent. Admittedly some sets don't have single target buffs but they are generally not sets that have trouble soloing...
Its not like defenders would suddenly become tank mages, a soft capped blaster or a crab/warshade is still a far superior tank mage.
Quote:
See, here you point out you're using elitist defender builds. Of course these builds are known for their overperformance to other defender combos. And Cold/ Ice looks very good in on paper as a very good controllerish set. CONTROLLER.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
My D3 def and kin def and my current planned build for my cold/ice def have plenty of attacks. Only my emp/psi doesn't.
|
Quote:
|
Defenders do enough damage as is. Again, I have to ask, unless data to the contrary showing how poor the defender AT is performing and their lack of ability to team (aka blaster and stalker data/changes), will a free buff be given to defenders without any negative consequences? If so, the devs can't take away from our damage, so that leaves our buffs/debuffs. And this is my objection to the OP. |
Defenders do enough damage is your opinion not fact. We can argue all day/week/month/year. You are afraid of the nerfs that you perceive will happen if defender base damage is raised. Objection/opinion noted. Simply put, you should have stated your opinion and then moved on.
Quote:
Note about the overkill thing, there are two measures of overkill when analyzing Scourge.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
12% is the average buff against minions/lts/boss taken from extensive data simulations by Starsman. This data factors in overkilling, without factoring in overkill you end up with a number like 21.25%.
|
Case 1:
Foe has 10 HP left, you launch an attack that does 12 base points of damage, it scourges so the total is 24, but the base would had killed.
Case 2:
Foe has 10 HP left, you launch an attack that does 9 points of damage. This attack would not kill the target without Scourge. So we get scourge and do 18 points of damage.
In my analysis, Case 1 is not accounted for becasue Scourge was never usful. Case 2, however, is accounted for in full, I don't discount any damage from that, its fully "benefitial". Thats why I noted in my guide that I did not worry about direct overkill since everyone inflicts overkill, I only wanted to make sure that scourge that was 100% wasted was not accounted for.
My data also includes the actual Scourge rate. It can variate drastically from one attack to the other and not in the expected increments. It seems spamming higher damage attacks while solo may get you better scourge rate by simplicity of less attacks getting you faster to the 30% hp range where chances are higher of you scourging. It ends up being more 100% wasted scourge, though.
If I wanted to get an accurate measurement I'd have to go through a full attack chain calculator that actually goes on killing thousands of minions and gives me a real scourge rate for each set, but it seems that's a bit pointless right now since the true useful scourge rate is rather fixed across different scale attack tests against anything but minions.
OK about the original topic in the thread, I didn't read the full thread but there are a few things I would like to note. First off, I am not a huge defender player, my Sonic/Sonic is the only defender I have and it's not very high, most my analysis is theoretical and many may use this to dismiss it but remember it's the same theory the devs use to balance and if you want to catch their eye you got to dismiss theory with more theory or actual proof, not with anecdotes.
OK, first: Survival.
All defenders have at least one power that will directly benefit their own survivability. Debuffers are generally in better grounds as most their powers are useful to themselves.Now, Damage....
Epics provide some strong survivability for defenders. Temp Invuln yields base 30% smash/lethal resistance. On top of this, defenders use the same resist and defense modifiers as tankers so Tough, Weave and Combat Jumping are all as useful to them. Tough + Temp Invuln + 3 SOs on each gets you 70.2% resistance to the most common damage type in the game. That combined with any native buffing can yield some strong survivability.
Right now there is no much defense available to build upon other than IOs (that are not too hard to use for high amounts of defense) but if we ever hit epic proliferation we may get a cold epic with Ice Shield ready, but that's not now.
NOW you can just get a lot of native smash/lethal resistance without even looking at your primary, mind you, it's late game but still possible.
It would mess too much with tanker desirability if the defender can barely be killed.
All defenders BUT force fields get damage boosting tools, be it -resistance or + damage. Off these, I think only Empathy is not able to use at least some of that on self (unless you count recharge as such but for now I am trying to look only at direct damage.) And off course, there is Assault that is available to all and defenders get 18.75% buffing out of it.
These buffs and debuffs can be very strong to the point where the real issue of "defender damage" suddenly becomes an issue of "Empathy and Force Fields" damage, not "Defender Damage". Certain sets also may see themselves being too late bloomers in the damage department but again, that's a set issue not an AT one.
What I'd recommend if anything:
Empathy: Allow to somehow use Fortitude on self so its useful solo.
Force Fields: Repulsion Field and Force Bubble seem extremely redundant to me. I'd say turning Repulsion Field into a -resist power that just has a base end cost (no per foe -end.)
And the only thing I'd make as an AT wide effect: Allow Vigilance to work off Endurance AND HP, not just off HP, and allow it to take into account the player's own stats. This would make Vigilance useful solo while also making it useful when the team is getting exhausted, not only when the team is simply dying.
Some random comments.
Defenders don't need more HPs or survivability. All my defenders, high & low, are very, very survivable right now.
Vigilance is not only useless, but can reward poor play. Do w/Vigilance what was done w/Defiance--add extra recovery per teammate added, much like w/Khelds. It only stands to reason w/more teammates, the more the defender has to use their powers to "protect" them.
Defenders could use a bit more damage. I hate soloing my defenders, not because I can't, but because I can't go as fast as my... well, everything else. Maybe they shouldn't--no, they definitely shouldn't, but they could use a damage buff.
Oh, and the buff-other-only powers should be able to benefit a solo defender. When I play my Son/ or Cold/ defenders, it's like 1/2 my primary just went away. An epic pet which someone suggested a while back would be a very good start.
I also think there are bigger imbalances in the game that needs more attention that defenders, but I wouldn't cry over a buff either.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
It seems possible to make an ally-buff power be also a self-buff at the same time. The limitation would be that you would need an allied target in range and LOS in order to be able to activate the power, but that could be circumvented by giving Defenders an inherent pet that has no game effect other than allowing you to fire off the ally buffs upon it.
Of course, any self-buff portion of the ally buffs would have to be greatly limited in strength, maybe 1/6 to 1/3 of the normal buff effect (probably even more for Adrenaline Boost), but I'm sure that no one will complain that they're getting 1/6 of a loaf when before they had 0/6.
The biggest sets that would profit from this would be:
Empathy, FF, Sonic
Not coincidentally, the same sets that are considered the weakest soloers.
It's an idea to consider. I'm not sure it's a good idea, as I'm not on the side of any "Defenders are weak" group. But I am on the side of the "Half my powerset is useless if soloing" group, and this would definitely solve that problem.
Quote:
Actually I ran a survey of exactly that type when I started marketeering seriously (I wanted to know who my customer base was going to be after all) this was around I10 I took spot checks after shields but it didn't really flex much even then.|
Originally Posted by Umbral_NA
Actually, you're reading that entire analysis a bit incorrectly since you're citing popularity as "number of logins for each AT" rather than the more appropriate but completely unavailable "number of hours player for each AT".
Honestly, if you want a good gauge of real AT popularity insofar as playtime rather than timed logged in, you'd do best to simply take a few samples across all of the servers. Simply make a level 1 character, head in and check how many of each AT are playing at any specific time. In general, you'll find significantly more controllers on than any other AT. This is actually a more effective way to gauge AT interest because it actually accounts for how much people are actually willing to play the AT (or at least stand around while playing the character). |
The numbers I got blue side went almost perfectly on the 5s
Blasters - 30%
Controllers - 25%
Scrappers - 20%
Tanks - 15%
Defenders - 10%
Khelds - 1%
I realize that's 101% but that's a rounding error. The top 5 classes were all about .3% under the displayed values those fractional percentage points added up to give the Khelds their 1.2%.
Red side numbers at that time were:
Master Minds - 35%
Brutes - 34%
Corruptors - 15%
Domintors - 10%
Stalkers - 5%
with a 1% rounding error that went the other direction.
This was pre-Veats of course and I've never really been interested in playing most of the red side ATs. To me they were a bland, boring, homoginization of the existing Hero powers and power sets. Since I didn't play red side I didn't do any further spot checks. I just had a couple lowbie villians that I used for marketing research and to amass some cash should I ever find villians interesting (which "may" happen when GR comes out, Redeemed Corruptors may replace many of my current defenders).
As far as Hero side goes I haven't done a spot check post Mission Architect. I imagine that the number of new fire/kin farmers may have warped those numbers somewhat since my last spot check.
It really hasn't been of much interest to me as of late though mainly because I have all most all of what I wanted (and spares) from my marketeering and my time spent doing that has decreased.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Allowing all defenders to use all buffs on self can be dangerous. Things would have to be done on a power-per power deal. One workaround I can see for Fortitude to buff self is making the power work on both, allies and foes. Then add two sets of effects, the normal current target buffs and duplicates that target self. |
Originally Posted by BlackSly
It seems possible to make an ally-buff power be also a self-buff at the same time. The limitation would be that you would need an allied target in range and LOS in order to be able to activate the power, but that could be circumvented by giving Defenders an inherent pet that has no game effect other than allowing you to fire off the ally buffs upon it.
|
The self target will only trigger if the targeted entitie is a foe. The targeted portion will only trigger if the target is an ally.
This would allow the power to still work only on as many entities as recharge dictates, but usable on either self OR ally, but not both at once.
Quote:
Hey remember that part of this thread where I proved that less than half (five out of eleven) of the buff/debuff modifiers have a 25% advantage for defenders?
|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Defenders support numbers are supposed to make them superior to corruptor in overall team support but that's not going to happen unless you buff defender base damage some to lessen the corruptor/Defender damage gap so their 25% support advantage can catch up to the corruptor damage gains.
|
I highly dought that defenders are a threat to a tanks postion if they can self buff. At best they would have to take a third rate taunt from the presence pool to even have a chance of holding aggro.
There is no way in hell I would want a defender to try and tank for my fire/fire blaster, willpower tanks give me enough cause to hesitate already :P
Even if a defender can match the defence their resistance and hitpoint caps are not even in the same universe as a tanks.
And controllers can already self buff by proxy at full strength, my earth/thermal can tank a GM thanks to a buffed up Rocky.
Quote:
Damage advantage gained through -res/+dmg powers is irrelevant to the discussion since those aren't available in every set, and a 25% advantage in a -res/+dmg power doesn't translate into a 25% damage advantage. We're talking about base+inherent damage here, a subject that covers every level range and isn't balanced around when you finally get that special -res/+dmg power from whatever set you chose, if there even is one.
|
Originally Posted by Garent
Hey remember that part of this thread where I proved that less than half (five out of eleven) of the buff/debuff modifiers have a 25% advantage for defenders?
|
.
While the discussion has not really dipped into Vigilence, your idea intrigues me. Only problem I see is with Force Field. PFF is probably too good to be used in this way, maybe FF gets to use powers 2 thru 4 instead?