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An AOE heal has nothing to do with most toggles, it uses a lot of end, of course.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I agree with this, and go one better. Using your primaries seems to be even worse than attacks. Currently I am playing an Empath and even with 2 End reduction in Healing Aura, this uses more endurance than my attacks. Yet it is my PRIMARY power.
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It's not a primary / secondary issue.
Toggles are often held responsible for end usage while attacks use way more (ok maybe not toggles like mind TK, but most).
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I think you must have ran out of luck then...|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Yeah, I did use Energy Torrent in the past, but I found myself running out of endurance even BEFORE finishing off a single Minion. Thus, I stopped using it.
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Numbers I pull from game is for base :
Power bolt : DMG 9.3, END 5.2 => DPE 1.79
Power Blast : DMG 15.25, END 8.5 => DPE 1.79
Energy Torrent : DMG 8.93, END 11.96 => DPE 0.75
Power Burst : DMG 19.72, END 10.4 => DPE 1.90
Explosive Blast : DMG 8.37, END 15.18 => DPE 0.55
If you hit 2 targets with torrent it'll have a DPE of 1.5, but if you hit 3 you'll get 2.25 which is above any of the ST blasts.
Explosive Blast has pretty crappy DPE though, you'll need 4 targets to do better than ST blasts with it.
But using torrent vs 3 targets or more should improve your endurance usage efficiency, and also provide you with more mitigation, allowing you to use toggles less.
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Yes, proper slotting does mean that you focus on your attacks for endurance. . first. I still put end reductions in any toggles.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Body
Toggles will not drain your Endurance bar-- ATTACKS drain the endurance bar. Unless you are toggleman. So, as a defender it comes down to endurance efficiency with those attacks. And they are not very efficient at all. High end cost, low damage, piss poor inherent all add up. Probably simplest solution-- give defenders a damage boost.
And exactly why is Ultimo running 4 toggles? For survivalibility of course. Low HP and lack of being able to properly defend yourself with your own primary is a very real issue with defenders. Again, simple to solve? Maybe not, but more HP gives a defender more time to live. |
I understand the weave/manuevers to get close to the cap on a bubbler, but why the tough? Just to reduce damage that does get in?
Cat is right, 3 white minions should not require anything from a primary or pools.
My Characters
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Yeah, I have Tough to provide that bit of resistance to attacks that DO hit me (since I have such low health). Sometimes I do leave it turned off, simply to conserve endurance. The point is none of my other characters have to do this. My Tanker can run all his toggles indefinitely and runs out of endurance only if I'm careless with attacking. My Scrapper can run 4 toggles and never has to turn them off. My Controller has trouble, but his toggles are offensive (Rad), and he hasn't hit L20 yet, so no Stamina.|
Originally Posted by Tatmia
Yes, proper slotting does mean that you focus on your attacks for endurance. . first. I still put end reductions in any toggles.
I understand the weave/manuevers to get close to the cap on a bubbler, but why the tough? Just to reduce damage that does get in? Cat is right, 3 white minions should not require anything from a primary or pools. |
The foes you fight makes a big difference to whether you need all the toggles. Some minions are no threat, but many (especially now that im in the 30s) can be a serious threat if they hit me. Nemesis and Crey can do close to 100 points of damage per hit.
As I say, however, the real problem is the imbalance of endurance usage. A Scrapper uses around 5 endurance for an attack and might do 100 damage. A Defender would use the same 5 endurance, but will do only 40-50 damage, meaning he's attacking twice as often. That means longer fights (exposing the Defender to more damage) and more endurance used.
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The manner in which it is misleading is simple: you're suggesting that every toggle costs the exact same amount of endurance. The assumption would be that 4 toggles costs half as much as 8 toggles. This isn't always, nor is is often ever true.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
What the hell is so misleading?
I run FOUR TOGGLES. I listed the FOUR TOGGLES. What's so misleading? My SCrapper runs EIGHT TOGGLES. That means the Defender is running HALF AS MANY. What's misleading? Is is because I didn't list the Scrapper's toggles? |
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Ok, he runs Deflection, Battle Agility, Against All Odds, Tough, Weave, Manuevers, Tactics and Assault. That's EIGHT. Running all those toggles, he runs out of endurance very fast, but is still able to defeat a single minion (though not much more than that) because he does enough damage for the exerted endurance. |
The entire point I'm making here is that, even if you didn't intend it, you were trying to make it sound like the Scrapper was running through twice as much endurance per second from toggles as the Defender was (re: "HALF as many as my Scrapper") and still getting better endurance efficiency than the Scrapper. The manner in which you made the comparison (re: "# of toggles : # of toggles" rather than the more appropriate "end/sec : end/sec") generated a flawed argument, which simply demonstrated your poor analytical skills, which virtually everyone already knows about and cites as to why your analyses are fundamentally flawed.
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| You mean you HOPE no one beleives me. Why you would hope that is beyond me. You may notice I didn't put out ANY NUMBERS. I just described what my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN. |
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I didn't say that they cost the same amount of endurance. I also didn't point out that the Defender gets more benefit from his pool toggles than the Scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The manner in which it is misleading is simple: you're suggesting that every toggle costs the exact same amount of endurance. The assumption would be that 4 toggles costs half as much as 8 toggles. This isn't always, nor is is often ever true.
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| All of those toggles running together cost 2.44 end/sec base. All of your Defender's toggles running together cost 1.56 end/sec base. The defender is only running 56% more end/sec in toggle costs than the Defender, and, interestingly enough, 3 of those 8 toggles operate to increase damage dealing capability (and thereby end efficiency for killing) rather than direct survivability. |
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| The entire point I'm making here is that, even if you didn't intend it, you were trying to make it sound like the Scrapper was running through twice as much endurance per second from toggles as the Defender was (re: "HALF as many as my Scrapper") and still getting better endurance efficiency than the Scrapper. The manner in which you made the comparison (re: "# of toggles : # of toggles" rather than the more appropriate "end/sec : end/sec") generated a flawed argument, which simply demonstrated your poor analytical skills, which virtually everyone already knows about and cites as to why your analyses are fundamentally flawed. |
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| Actually, I mean that no one believes you. Even when you try to put out numbers to validate your personal experience, you get those numbers blatantly wrong (and everyone repeatedly brings forth the numbers to prove you wrong each time). The problem with all of your personal experiences is that every time you've brought them up, you've suffered enormously from perception bias without ever doing anything to mitigate or even mention it while simultaneously using automatically skewed comparisons to further make your point. |
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I would also suggest that you re-examine your play style. Tough on a bubbler is a completely un-needed endurance drain especially once you have your epic armor.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Yeah, I have Tough to provide that bit of resistance to attacks that DO hit me (since I have such low health). Sometimes I do leave it turned off, simply to conserve endurance. The point is none of my other characters have to do this. My Tanker can run all his toggles indefinitely and runs out of endurance only if I'm careless with attacking. My Scrapper can run 4 toggles and never has to turn them off. My Controller has trouble, but his toggles are offensive (Rad), and he hasn't hit L20 yet, so no Stamina.
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PFF provides you with resistances as well and the nice thing is all you have to do is watch your icon tray.
If a hit icon appears in your icon tray that means the attack has all ready been rolled and "will hit". Damage, however, is not applied until the attack resolves. PFF provides 40% resistance to all but toxic. You can turn on PFF when there are several hit icons in your tray (it's all ready too late for the defense but not for the resistances) and the resistances in PFF will reduce the damage. You can then use aid self or a couple respites and drop PFF again and PFF costs about 2/3's the end cost of Tough.
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| The foes you fight makes a big difference to whether you need all the toggles. Some minions are no threat, but many (especially now that im in the 30s) can be a serious threat if they hit me. Nemesis and Crey can do close to 100 points of damage per hit. |
First go get all the accolades that give +Max Hit Points and +Max End (if you haven't all ready done so) this will give you increases of 20% and 10% respectively (Freedom Phallanx, Portal Jockey, TF Commander, and Atlas Medallion).
Secondly use PFF for offense. Turn it on and eat the alpha (very high defense and excellent resists) then drop it and start attacking. After the alpha has splashed only bosses will cause you much trouble.
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| As I say, however, the real problem is the imbalance of endurance usage. A Scrapper uses around 5 endurance for an attack and might do 100 damage. A Defender would use the same 5 endurance, but will do only 40-50 damage, meaning he's attacking twice as often. That means longer fights (exposing the Defender to more damage) and more endurance used. |
Defenders are one of the few damage dealing Archtypes that don't get some form of endurance free bonus damage. (Tankers and now Dominators are the other). I don't count vigilance because of the variable effects due to primary/secondary, skill, team compostion (or lack of a team) and because of the broken mechanics of it (one of the few "brilliant" Emmert ideas left in the game).
Tankers (with the possible exception of Fiery Aura) have enough personal mitigation to survive for the amount of time that it takes their low damage values to finish a fight. Debuffing Defenders pretty much have the same ability since their debuffs work for themselves as well as the team. It is the buffing sets that have difficulty since many of their buffs don't work on themselves only teammates and pets.
Scrappers and Stalkers get endurance free critical hits.
Brutes get end free damage from Fury.
Blasters get the defiance buffs as end free bonus damage.
Corruptors get endurance free damage in Scourge.
Controllers, which aren't even a damage based AT, get a 50% damage boost from containment which is all end cost free.
Dominators used to get end free damage AND a full blue bar from triggering Domination prior to the revamp (you could get this bonus with a greater than 50% up time with just hasten and SOs). Now they pay full end cost for every point of damage and they have endurance woes especially soloing for the non-permas.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Thorm
An AOE heal has nothing to do with most toggles, it uses a lot of end, of course.
It's not a primary / secondary issue. Toggles are often held responsible for end usage while attacks use way more (ok maybe not toggles like mind TK, but most). |
That is true. However, the point I was making is that with defenders, people point to toggles and their attacks (which we can all agree are endurance in-efficient) as the culprits for their endo problems. But you cannot forget about the primary powers with regards to endurance either. I run 3 Toggles on Biospark and on my Blaster. They happen to be the same toggles (Hover, Tough, and Weave). Yet my Defender has much more issues with Endurance than my blaster.
This is caused by a combination of factors.
A) My defender requires more endurance to do "X" amount of damage, so uses more endurance on the same mob as my blaster would.
B) Because the fight drags out a little longer than a blaster fight, It requires more endurance through use of his primary powers to mitigate dmg (Heal, for example)
C) Defenders MUST use their primary powers AND their secondaries to overcome a challenge.
This is simply not true of both Blasters and Controllers, who can succeed quite well by using ONLY their primary powers. Their secondaries are like a grab-bag of goodies they can look into and pick and choose what they like the most.
Anyway, I totally agree that toggles are not the "Bad-guy" in every situation. They are just 1 of several things combining to make Defenders less endurance efficient than other ATs.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Hello Ultimo,|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Just to touch on the endurance issue...
I run with four toggles (HALF as many as my Scrapper) - Tough, Weave, Dispersion Bubble and Manuevers. I'd LIKE to run Assault, too, but the endurance cost is prohibitive. As it is, I run out of endurance in EVERY fight, with EVERY minion (white conn). I don't know which dev it is that thinks this is fun, but he and I have VERY different views on the subject. |
Sorry to hear about the endurance issues your having on this character.
One thing I do know about FF's Dispersion and Sonic's Dispersion bubbles is that they are pretty expensive.
They are not quite as bad as running two toggles, but darn close.
Having played both Sonic and Force Field, I would say you would be better off with either
Combat Jumping + Dispersion + Maneuvers (Post SO) or, if you are a flyer
Hover + Dispersion + Maneuvers.
Then take your Epic shield when it opens up. Or Assault if you get enough IO sets slotted.
I personally like tough and weave too, but with the Dispersion bubble being so costly, I would focus on just +Def and IOs in order to get tiered mitigation. All the trouble to work Tough into a FF build seems like a great deal of endurance trouble.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Hello Ultimo,
Sorry to hear about the endurance issues your having on this character. One thing I do know about FF's Dispersion and Sonic's Dispersion bubbles is that they are pretty expensive. They are not quite as bad as running two toggles, but darn close. Having played both Sonic and Force Field, I would say you would be better off with either Combat Jumping + Dispersion + Maneuvers (Post SO) or, if you are a flyer Hover + Dispersion + Maneuvers. Then take your Epic shield when it opens up. Or Assault if you get enough IO sets slotted. I personally like tough and weave too, but with the Dispersion bubble being so costly, I would focus on just +Def and IOs in order to get tiered mitigation. All the trouble to work Tough into a FF build seems like a great deal of endurance trouble. |
Interesting... I'll consider your suggestions...
The real reason for Tough being in the build is that I wanted Weave. That, and it's thematic (the character is supposed to be wearing body armor, so Tough fits the concept...).
As for IOs, I can't even afford SOs, fancy IOs are totally out of the question. I already bankrupted myself getting L35 generic IOs in all my critical powers.
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Yeah Weave is pretty decent. |
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
The real reason for Tough being in the build is that I wanted Weave. That, and it's thematic (the character is supposed to be wearing body armor, so Tough fits the concept...). As for IOs, I can't even afford SOs, fancy IOs are totally out of the question. I already bankrupted myself getting L35 generic IOs in all my critical powers. |
Here is one more thing to think about, Maneuvers + Combat Jumping = 6% Def to all and Immobilize protection.
Weave is only 5% base defense and you have to take one more power to get it (Boxing/Kick).
I built a FF/Nrg Defender awhile back using Dr.Mike's guide and I skipped Maneuvers.
If you think about it, Hover gives 2.5% Def to yourself at half the Endurance cost.
Do you really need more Def for your team?
I ran Hover+Dispersion and took Aid Self since he was a Tech origin.
PFF + Aid Self > Tough by a long shot.
I did try Hover+Dispersion+Tough+Weave though and its nice, but I put 3 end reducers in Dispersion and 2 each in Tough and Weave, and it still seemed like I was being drained by them. This was the reason I respecced and switched to Aid Other/Aid Self instead of Tough/Weave.
As far as Influence goes, I hear you. I could not even start looking at the good stuff till I got my first character into the 40s.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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screw u, i want my def to have medium hp, the good ole' days were the best, when buffer defenders <ff/ and now sonics> could actually survive, corruptors, if u havent noticed have much higher base damage then defenders, and the fact that defenders both have low hp and low damage output, is exactly the reason why pvp sux in CoX, honestly on red side, i ALWAYS aim for defenders, y because they r overall the weakest hero in pvp, tankers r almost impossible to kill, scrappers will kill me quickly, and r hard to kill too, controllers, will just cc-lock me to death, blasters have incredibly high dps, soo unless i have cc, i dare not mess with, but deffs, their hp sux, their dps sux, all i gotta do is avoid their debuffs<if they have any> and theyre dead in less then 5 secs, this has always been discouraging to me, because def's were always my fav AT, but atm they r 100% pvp insuffiecient, and if anyone wants to argue against that, take a lvl 30 sonics/dark def to siren's call, i personally gauruntee u will die in less then 30 seconds of being in the zone
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The ramblings of an escaped mental patient follow.
TL;DR - Increase defender base HPs to scrapper level and change their ranged damage mod to 0.8; Increase corruptor base HPs to blaster level and change their ranged damage mod to 0.9. So I read this the other day, from Stormfront_NA: First, let me get this out of the way. No, I cannot in any way PROVE that defenders are underperforming and need to be buffed in order to solve that problem. Hell, I don't think they are underperforming, therefore I am not proposing any changes for that reason. I love defenders. I play several defenders reglarly. I find defenders fun on a team and I enjoy playing them solo from time to time (I'd enjoy soloing them more, if I did not keep thinking how much more awesome I would be with others around to benefit from my buffs/debuffs). I love corruptors. I play several corruptors. I find corruptors fun on a team and I enjoy playing them solo from time to time (I'd enjoy soloing them more, if I did not keep thinking how much more awesome I would be with others around to benefit from my buffs/debuffs). Why should we change anything about either AT? Maybe they will become even more funner! Maybe even more people will find them appealing! Perhaps more players will feel more powerful and awesome! Who knows? Who cares? Let's just do it! Defenders and corruptors need more hitpoints. These ATs are designed with AoE damage powers and will draw aggro. They are designed with many PBAoE powers to affect enemies, so they often need to get close to baddies. They are designed with many PBAoE powers to protect teammates, so they need to be close enough to enemies in order to keep melee allies inside the effect. It would be more fun if these ATs could utilize those powers with less fear and with more confidence in their ability to take some of that AoE splash damage and some return fire from any aggro generated by using their best AoE damage (and debuff) powers. Extra hitpoints will also ease solo play, allowing these ATs to survive the longer battles their slightly lower damage engender. Since defenders will have the lower damage, they should get scrapper level hitpoints. Corruptors, being the more offensive AT, get blaster level HPs. Speaking of damage, these ATs do too little. One of the great features of the CoH game is its fast paced battles, and defenders fall out of that area. Variety is good, but defenders are way out of range of standard CoH experience. Corruptors are moderately less so, but still fall short vs most of the enemies in game. While surviving longer battles can be done by both these ATs, in addition to needing more attacks to win a fight, most also need to use active mitigation powers (debuffs/self-heals/controls), taking even more time and endurance. The endurance consumption needed to win fights on these ATs is unacceptable. We could adjust endurance costs, but that would still leave these ATs lacking on teams (you know, the place they are supposed to shine the most). Wouldn't it be more fun if defenders were appreciated more for their attack sets? Therefore, we will move corruptors damage scale to 0.9 and defenders to 0.8. The corruptor damage cap will be lowered to 400, resluting in a negligible change at the buff cap (0.75*5=3.75, compared to 0.9*4=3.6). Defender caps will be lowered to 325, resulting in no change at the cap (0.65*4=2.6 vs 0.8*3.25=2.6). It might be wise here to lower scourge from +100% damage to +80% in order to maintain current performance vs the higher HP targets, but its not really necessary, IMO, since they are such a small part of the game anyway, albeit an important one for some aspects of the game. Neither of the above changes will have a major impact on current defender/corruptor playstyle. No one who currently loves the defender playstyle will feel a major difference. Fights will go a bit faster, and they will be slightly harder to kill, but they still will not be able to carelessly wade into enemies. Most of their mitigation will still be active, requiring attention to be payed and tough choices to be made. Current players of those ATs lose nothing (please do not gripe about the 4% reduction corruptors get at the damage cap). The last suggestion that pushed me into crazy land, was Mag 4 status resists in the Epic armors. This idea I do not like. It would change the current playstyle, it would make those powers must take, and it would take away a bit from FF, Sonic, Traps, and to a lesser extent Rad. Therefore, I can only be wild-eyed, fanatical about the modest increases in Hit Points and Damage. Just say no to APP armor status protection! OK, now that you are all convinced, let us counter the non-believers. But no one would play a blaster anymore. Dominators and VEATs exist, yet I still want to play blasters. It is possible doms could overtake blasters, but never defenders and corruptors. You see, melee attacks are fun. People like to punch, kick, bash, and stab things. Doms and blasters are really the only way to get both. (Yes, some pool attacks for defenders could be used, but really, it is not the same as Ice Sword or Bone Smasher). /Traps might kick /Devices in the teeth; that is not an AT issue, but a powerset concern. Scrapper and tanker population could suffer. Have I mentioned that people like to kick, bash, rip, shred, punch, stabbity-death baddies? Also, people will always enjoy the passive mitigation the armored ATs have, not to mention the status protection. Brutes, scrappers, and tankers are not in any jeopardy because of the above proposed changes. All corruptor/defender teams would be overpowered. Status Quo. This suggestion does not particularly make them any more powerful when on large teams of other defenders/corruptors, although smaller teams of just these ATs will see a modest benefit. It does indeed improve their (percieved) performance on mixed teams, as they will be a bit more resilient and provide more damage than currently. Sometimes there is an alligator driving a car, and sometimes you are wearing a hat made out of meat. |
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OK. It sounds like you are agreeing with me, so I am not sure why you started with the elegant "screw u".
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
screw u, i want my def to have medium hp, the good ole' days were the best, when buffer defenders <ff/ and now sonics> could actually survive, corruptors, if u havent noticed have much higher base damage then defenders, and the fact that defenders both have low hp and low damage output, is exactly the reason why pvp sux in CoX, honestly on red side, i ALWAYS aim for defenders, y because they r overall the weakest hero in pvp, tankers r almost impossible to kill, scrappers will kill me quickly, and r hard to kill too, controllers, will just cc-lock me to death, blasters have incredibly high dps, soo unless i have cc, i dare not mess with, but deffs, their hp sux, their dps sux, all i gotta do is avoid their debuffs<if they have any> and theyre dead in less then 5 secs, this has always been discouraging to me, because def's were always my fav AT, but atm they r 100% pvp insuffiecient, and if anyone wants to argue against that, take a lvl 30 sonics/dark def to siren's call, i personally gauruntee u will die in less then 30 seconds of being in the zone
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Hehe, Maybe he didnt even read the whole post.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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But my second sentence is:|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Hehe, Maybe he didnt even read the whole post.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
TL;DR - Increase defender base HPs to scrapper level and change their ranged damage mod to 0.8; Increase corruptor base HPs to blaster level and change their ranged damage mod to 0.9.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Yep, StratoNexus, I was not confused by your original post.
Perhaps Sorcerer thought you were detracting from the other thread you referenced.
Oh Well, the important thing is that he seems to agree with you.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Sorry to drizzle on the shizzle, but I just can't get behind hp and damage buffs alone as the whole solution.
Maintaining big differences between ATs gives roleplayers more choice and increases the synergistic benefits for teaming. Muddying the ATs all together to medium hp and medium damage does just the opposite.
So I'm convinced at least part of the solution needs to be giving defenders the game-breaking buff/debuff haxx the likes of which make other MMORPG devs (and players) scream in terror, even if it's at the cost of having to keep the low hp or low damage. Sure, controllers, corruptors and masterminds should still be pretty good at buff/debuff with proper slotting, but a team should literally hear the glass-crashing goodness of game balance going out the window the second a defender gets anywhere near the battle. In comic book terms, as well as controllers freeze the bad guys, defenders make it like the bad guys aren't even there. That'd be my vision for the AT. Defenders are close to that point, but not quite -- just a little bit more ought to do it.
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Hello Rigel_Kent,|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Sorry to drizzle on the shizzle, but I just can't get behind hp and damage buffs alone as the whole solution.
Maintaining big differences between ATs gives roleplayers more choice and increases the synergistic benefits for teaming. Muddying the ATs all together to medium hp and medium damage does just the opposite. So I'm convinced at least part of the solution needs to be giving defenders the game-breaking buff/debuff haxx the likes of which make other MMORPG devs (and players) scream in terror, even if it's at the cost of having to keep the low hp or low damage. Sure, controllers, corruptors and masterminds should still be pretty good at buff/debuff with proper slotting, but a team should literally hear the glass-crashing goodness of game balance going out the window the second a defender gets anywhere near the battle. In comic book terms, as well as controllers freeze the bad guys, defenders make it like the bad guys aren't even there. That'd be my vision for the AT. Defenders are close to that point, but not quite -- just a little bit more ought to do it. |
I cannot fault your logic regarding game balance from an AT/Class based perspective. The traditional approach has been to create that "niche" for each class/AT choice that a player can choose. I, however, hold onto my hopes that the game can do this while also giving each AT/Combination its ability to feel "Super-Hero-ish" while solo.
So, I basically would disagree with pushing a more powerful support role, especially at the cost of being "Team-dependant". Others don't agree with that, which is fine, since we are all entitled to our personal 'vision' of the game. But the whole fact that Defenders have a "specifically" damage-based secondary screams to me that the original design was for us to support AND blast villains out of existence.
It also occurred to me, if the boost to defender's primary abilities was too great, it could tip the scales against the Controller AT to the point that their control's would be unecessary. After-all, why do you need to hold/sleep Villains who pose no credible threat to the team due to the defender(s) present. Its kind of a tricky see-saw.
Actually, because of the "Boon" of containment and how Controllers were already (arguably) sought after over a defender prior to it (containment), for game balance, it would make more sense(to me) to seriously "Nerf" controller numbers on their secondaries to get the result you (and others) are suggesting. Personally, I HATE nerfs, so I say just leave controllers alone, they work well now, but give Defenders a better Inherent AND something to balance their gameplay.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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The only thing I'll reiterate is that you can't make a class "team-dependent" because then he'd be hampered solo. Since everyone solos, this would essentially take away at least half of the game for the hampered class.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Hello Rigel_Kent,
I cannot fault your logic regarding game balance from an AT/Class based perspective. The traditional approach has been to create that "niche" for each class/AT choice that a player can choose. I, however, hold onto my hopes that the game can do this while also giving each AT/Combination its ability to feel "Super-Hero-ish" while solo. So, I basically would disagree with pushing a more powerful support role, especially at the cost of being "Team-dependant". Others don't agree with that, which is fine, since we are all entitled to our personal 'vision' of the game. But the whole fact that Defenders have a "specifically" damage-based secondary screams to me that the original design was for us to support AND blast villains out of existence. It also occurred to me, if the boost to defender's primary abilities was too great, it could tip the scales against the Controller AT to the point that their control's would be unecessary. After-all, why do you need to hold/sleep Villains who pose no credible threat to the team due to the defender(s) present. Its kind of a tricky see-saw. Actually, because of the "Boon" of containment and how Controllers were already (arguably) sought after over a defender prior to it (containment), for game balance, it would make more sense(to me) to seriously "Nerf" controller numbers on their secondaries to get the result you (and others) are suggesting. Personally, I HATE nerfs, so I say just leave controllers alone, they work well now, but give Defenders a better Inherent AND something to balance their gameplay. |
If it were up to me, all the classes would be identical with the only difference being that which defines their role on a team.
Think of it this way; everyone has medium stats.
Tankers are intended to get and hold aggro. Thus their inherent would generate aggro and boost their health. Notice this is helpful solo and on teams. Notice this also doesn't change his damage output.
Blasters/Scrappers are intended to do damage, so their inherent would boost damage output. This also is good solo and teamed. Note his health and resistance values need not be changed.
Defenders are intended to buff. Their inherent would make their buffs better than other classes that buff. This can mean buffing themselves, too. This can be via healing or buffs to other attributes (Def/Res/etc). Note their damage would be the same as Tankers. Note their health would be the same as Blasters/Scrappers. Being able to buff themselves would mean they could be like Tankers, but they wouldn't have the health or the aggro control, even if they might have better actual defenses.
Controllers are meant to control, so they would have an inherent designed to enhance their controls. Their damage, health and so on would be as good as everyone else's.
Anyhow, that's just me.
What you describe Ultimo is a good starting point for how a game would be built.
I bet Cryptic did almost exactly something like this when they started out, but diverged far more than that from the center.
As Rigel_Kent suggested, this has a benefit of creating more diverse characters and teams.
As far as "team-dependant", he never suggested that as a balance factor, It was just me extrapolating what would happen if they boosted our primary abilities significantly.
I would be afraid that any upward adjustment in buffs would come hand-in-hand with greater "team-dependance" (which I Definitely do not want), and, like you said, push Defenders even further away from "solo-parity" than they are now.
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Earth to Crazy guy,hello there good Man,Woman or Man Woman,Defenders are fine as they are,Defenders are Support Toon,not tankers,blaster and Scrapper,if you play them well then you should not have any trouble.They Debuff,Heal and Buff,they only attack if they have no choice.They aren't blaster so they don't have to have alot of Damage outpot and they aren't Tankers or Scrapper and they take draw less Aggro so they be find with out alot of health.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The ramblings of an escaped mental patient follow.
TL;DR - Increase defender base HPs to scrapper level and change their ranged damage mod to 0.8; Increase corruptor base HPs to blaster level and change their ranged damage mod to 0.9. So I read this the other day, from Stormfront_NA: First, let me get this out of the way. No, I cannot in any way PROVE that defenders are underperforming and need to be buffed in order to solve that problem. Hell, I don't think they are underperforming, therefore I am not proposing any changes for that reason. I love defenders. I play several defenders reglarly. I find defenders fun on a team and I enjoy playing them solo from time to time (I'd enjoy soloing them more, if I did not keep thinking how much more awesome I would be with others around to benefit from my buffs/debuffs). I love corruptors. I play several corruptors. I find corruptors fun on a team and I enjoy playing them solo from time to time (I'd enjoy soloing them more, if I did not keep thinking how much more awesome I would be with others around to benefit from my buffs/debuffs). Why should we change anything about either AT? Maybe they will become even more funner! Maybe even more people will find them appealing! Perhaps more players will feel more powerful and awesome! Who knows? Who cares? Let's just do it! Defenders and corruptors need more hitpoints. These ATs are designed with AoE damage powers and will draw aggro. They are designed with many PBAoE powers to affect enemies, so they often need to get close to baddies. They are designed with many PBAoE powers to protect teammates, so they need to be close enough to enemies in order to keep melee allies inside the effect. It would be more fun if these ATs could utilize those powers with less fear and with more confidence in their ability to take some of that AoE splash damage and some return fire from any aggro generated by using their best AoE damage (and debuff) powers. Extra hitpoints will also ease solo play, allowing these ATs to survive the longer battles their slightly lower damage engender. Since defenders will have the lower damage, they should get scrapper level hitpoints. Corruptors, being the more offensive AT, get blaster level HPs. Speaking of damage, these ATs do too little. One of the great features of the CoH game is its fast paced battles, and defenders fall out of that area. Variety is good, but defenders are way out of range of standard CoH experience. Corruptors are moderately less so, but still fall short vs most of the enemies in game. While surviving longer battles can be done by both these ATs, in addition to needing more attacks to win a fight, most also need to use active mitigation powers (debuffs/self-heals/controls), taking even more time and endurance. The endurance consumption needed to win fights on these ATs is unacceptable. We could adjust endurance costs, but that would still leave these ATs lacking on teams (you know, the place they are supposed to shine the most). Wouldn't it be more fun if defenders were appreciated more for their attack sets? Therefore, we will move corruptors damage scale to 0.9 and defenders to 0.8. The corruptor damage cap will be lowered to 400, resluting in a negligible change at the buff cap (0.75*5=3.75, compared to 0.9*4=3.6). Defender caps will be lowered to 325, resulting in no change at the cap (0.65*4=2.6 vs 0.8*3.25=2.6). It might be wise here to lower scourge from +100% damage to +80% in order to maintain current performance vs the higher HP targets, but its not really necessary, IMO, since they are such a small part of the game anyway, albeit an important one for some aspects of the game. Neither of the above changes will have a major impact on current defender/corruptor playstyle. No one who currently loves the defender playstyle will feel a major difference. Fights will go a bit faster, and they will be slightly harder to kill, but they still will not be able to carelessly wade into enemies. Most of their mitigation will still be active, requiring attention to be payed and tough choices to be made. Current players of those ATs lose nothing (please do not gripe about the 4% reduction corruptors get at the damage cap). The last suggestion that pushed me into crazy land, was Mag 4 status resists in the Epic armors. This idea I do not like. It would change the current playstyle, it would make those powers must take, and it would take away a bit from FF, Sonic, Traps, and to a lesser extent Rad. Therefore, I can only be wild-eyed, fanatical about the modest increases in Hit Points and Damage. Just say no to APP armor status protection! OK, now that you are all convinced, let us counter the non-believers. But no one would play a blaster anymore. Dominators and VEATs exist, yet I still want to play blasters. It is possible doms could overtake blasters, but never defenders and corruptors. You see, melee attacks are fun. People like to punch, kick, bash, and stab things. Doms and blasters are really the only way to get both. (Yes, some pool attacks for defenders could be used, but really, it is not the same as Ice Sword or Bone Smasher). /Traps might kick /Devices in the teeth; that is not an AT issue, but a powerset concern. Scrapper and tanker population could suffer. Have I mentioned that people like to kick, bash, rip, shred, punch, stabbity-death baddies? Also, people will always enjoy the passive mitigation the armored ATs have, not to mention the status protection. Brutes, scrappers, and tankers are not in any jeopardy because of the above proposed changes. All corruptor/defender teams would be overpowered. Status Quo. This suggestion does not particularly make them any more powerful when on large teams of other defenders/corruptors, although smaller teams of just these ATs will see a modest benefit. It does indeed improve their (percieved) performance on mixed teams, as they will be a bit more resilient and provide more damage than currently. Sometimes there is an alligator driving a car, and sometimes you are wearing a hat made out of meat. |
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I agree with most parts of what you said but even if defenders are not blasters, they still have half of their powers (the secondary set ^^) designed to deal damage ... but it's not really dealing damage ^^|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Earth to Crazy guy,hello there good Man,Woman or Man Woman,Defenders are fine as they are,Defenders are Support Toon,not tankers,blaster and Scrapper,if you play them well then you should not have any trouble.They Debuff,Heal and Buff,they only attack if they have no choice.They aren't blaster so they don't have to have alot of Damage outpot and they aren't Tankers or Scrapper and they take draw less Aggro so they be find with out alot of health.
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A small increase that will give defenders the ability to kill things while solo and help the team when they're done with the buff/debuff/heal part of their job ... I said small increase because when we talk about that people tend to believe we want to outdamage a blaster ... MIDDLE WAY anyone
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wtf? that ain't true, i play on Freedom and i c scrapps, blasts, cons, tanks, & defenders, in that order most-to-least seen
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually, you're reading that entire analysis a bit incorrectly since you're citing popularity as "number of logins for each AT" rather than the more appropriate but completely unavailable "number of hours player for each AT".
Honestly, if you want a good gauge of real AT popularity insofar as playtime rather than timed logged in, you'd do best to simply take a few samples across all of the servers. Simply make a level 1 character, head in and check how many of each AT are playing at any specific time. In general, you'll find significantly more controllers on than any other AT. This is actually a more effective way to gauge AT interest because it actually accounts for how much people are actually willing to play the AT (or at least stand around while playing the character). |
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go away yur getting in my way of my +hp defender crusade!|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Earth to Crazy guy,hello there good Man,Woman or Man Woman,Defenders are fine as they are,Defenders are Support Toon,not tankers,blaster and Scrapper,if you play them well then you should not have any trouble.They Debuff,Heal and Buff,they only attack if they have no choice.They aren't blaster so they don't have to have alot of Damage outpot and they aren't Tankers or Scrapper and they take draw less Aggro so they be find with out alot of health.
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btw i think that def needs to be equal to scrapps, but as far as dps i think it just needs to be tweaked slightly
No self heals, no shield toggles. Nothing from primary or pools.
You waste endurance running unecessary toggles, then complain about sucking wind, repeatedly. The solution is available to you.
This is a plain and simple a layer 8 OSI error.
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